You make a fine point. You stick to cards, then, and I will stay with autographs. It's a matter of taste.

(But, after fifty years, I don't need a third party to tell me what's real, and what isn't.)

So basically, JSA told you no Maas?

You've been a great crowd, enjoy Whitesnake!

And don't forget to tip your waitresses.

-

Thanks a lot...I'll remember not to take a drink the next time I read one of your posts.

With all due respect, it essential that the hobby be able to trust SOME OUTFIT out there. If there is no one to trust, there is uncertainty, confusion and collectors will give up. Sure, there are people here that HATE authenticators and proclaim themselves to be experts, but I bet these individuals won't get top dollar for their items since they are rather unknown to a large majority of the collecting population.

After all, didn't David (I believe you are murderer's row on eBay at the time)sell a pencil cut of Chesbro with two authenticating papers to go with it? Why not have it authenticated by PSA or JSA where he could have gotten maybe 5X the amount you got.

And if you sold that 1927 Yankees ball, don't you think you would get some authenticators to agree with your opinion and wouldn't you want to get the most out of it and go to the most popular and marketed firm?

Sure I get frustrated like all of you as I really want to believe these guys are doing a great job, but sometimes they look so damn stupid.

As far as AutographAlert's challenge. That was done so long ago. Old news. I have enclosed to a scan of an Andy Warhol signature that Stephen Koschal has authenticated. Now I don't know the first thing about Andy Warhol, but the cover says March 9, 1987, right? Warhol died on February 22, 1987.

Could it have been signed?

Most likely it was an issue dedicated to the life of a great artist.

Classic...Reminds me of a yellow HOF plaque of Eddie Collins that I saw once offered on Ebay. I emailed to seller to inform him that the card was made several years after Collins' death...

Pscolgraphs,
With all due respect to you, I disagree.
What people need to do is their homework. If someone wants to collect something it is imperative that they 1)study what they are collecting, 2) create a network of trustworthy dealers and fellow collectors whom they can rely for guidance and assistance, and 3) understand that the only "guarantee" that means anything at all is the one the seller gives the buyer that they can return an item if they find it's not good.
I have heard no one here proclaim they are "experts", but I know many, including myself, that are comfortable, which some exceptions, making their own decisions about whether an auto is good or not, regardless of which third party person is involved.
The problem with this specific test is not that JSA made a mistake. We have all made mistakes.
The way I see it is that one of two possibilities exist: 1)JSA rejected these items out of hand because of the Morales cert or 2)they are unable to certify items they previously thought were real for multiple reasons.
In the first scenario one could argue, as David stated before, for theft. They were paid for a service and did not provide it. In the second scenario, one has to question the skill of the authenticator. All the items previously passed and now they all fail for 10-12 reasons. How did they miss all 10 things before?
Considering the price they charge for their services, I guess I expect more.


Also in Karl's example, the shaved t206 would have some residual value, but then again so would the original t206, Type 1 photo, baseball program, or vintage baseball that has a fake autograph on it. The only place this would not apply would be the cut signature, where the paper would have no intrinsic value.

Mark Velarde

Mark, what you say is great in theory. Unfortunately while many of us here have reached that stage as collector's I am guessing that the majority of the autograph buying public has not (and never will). So when it's time to sell, without that trusted third party authentication, your buying audience will be greatly diminished thereby reducing demand and, in turn, reducing value.

Phil,
I agree, that the "general" public are the ones who need third party certs the most, but with a few caveats.

First, I don't think the "general" autograph buying public is going to be going after the majority of the high end autographed items that collectors have on this board. Having any of the authenticators' certs isn't going to make the general public pay $5k for a cut sig of Gehrig or $60K or more for David's 27 Yanks ball. Besides the little problem of actually having the available money to spend, I think it takes a special type of person to spend that type of money on a piece of sports memorabilia, card, or autograph. I just don't see the average wife saying go ahead spend 20K on a signed ball, we don't need to use it for a whole host of things around the house. If you do have that loose change, you're make up a very tiny part of the "general" autograph buying public.

Plus, I also point out guys like Simon, Keating, Cocoran, Stinson, etc, who buy and sell all the time without any third party certs. These guys rely on their reputation that they will stand behind every auto they sell.

Second, I really am concerned with the seeming lack of youth in the BB Card/Sports memorabilia market. I wonder if in 20-30yrs if there will be people like us around wanting to spend they type of money that is spent now. Will a cert mean as much, if anything, if the marketplace contains far fewer people? I know people have been worrying about this forever, but as stuff gets more and more expensive, I think it does block entry into the marketplace of more people.

For me, when the time comes to sell all my stuff, it'll probably go to an auction house that can do whatever it wants, authentication wise, and then send me a check.

Best,
Mark

Hey Mark...I thought I had first dibs before the auction houses? :D

Well, I am 31 years old and have been actively buying and selling vintage sports memorabilia since, literally, in the hall of high school. I am fortunate to be born into a collecting family. My earliest memories of Christmas were my parents getting each other not clothes, not perfume, not jewelry, but antiques. In fact, my parents, myself, and wife still get each other antiques and whatever we collect for Christmas.

My dad has assembled a simply FANTASTIC collection of vintage oil cans and advertising porcelain and (VINTAGE) metal signs that would make the American Pickers weep.

I was born in '79, so my first steps into the sports collecting world was during the card boom of the 80s. Like any kid of the era, I couldn't get enough Canseco rookie cards. However, I noticed a few dealers at shows who sold nothing but older stuff. My mom and grandma bought me some older Pirates memorabilia (Clemente-era stuff). Soon, I was reading books about baseball history and was hooked. In high school, I was fortunate to sell my card collection for a decent price and started to buy and sell vintage (pre-1970 sportscards). I attended my first live Hunt Auction when I was a senior in HS, and still remain the youngest attendee at their auctions. It was then I became strictly devoted to selling vintage baseball memorabilia, and, especially autographs, which I began studying diligently during this era.

I see my younger cousins nowadays not collecting sports cards, but all that Pokeman stuff. The few card stores that remain within reasonable distances from me seem to have more Pokemon and non sports cards than baseball cards. I cringe at the prices on modern insert cards. I don't feel bad spening over $3,000 for a Honus Wagner cabinet photo when I Pujols refractor signed limited edition whatcha-ma-callit is "valued" at 5x that. I have yet to honestly run across anyone my age, or just a few years older/younger that deals with vintage sports stuff, let alone "quality" vintage material.

As for the first part I quoted, I strive one day to have my name known in the hobby as those guys. I can think of five guys off of the top of the head that weren't listed, but I trust with all my heart and soul. I am also not one to get caught up in 3rd party authenticators. Sure, I may buy stuff every now and then with a cert from them, but I have to feel good about it. I have seen too many slabbed fake Maris and Mantle sigs on eBay for my liking.

My first PSA horror story I ever heard was an area guy acquiring 3 Tiger Woods signs on 3x5s early in Woods' pro career at a tourney. I saw all three, one looked a bit rushed, which is common, the other 2 were textbook examples of early Woods sigs. He sent them to PSA, 2 came back slabbed, the other was deemed unauthentic. Funny that the rushed sig was one of the ones to come back slabbed!

Anyways, I do think about how the vintage hobby will look like in 30-40 years, let alone 20-30.

[QUOTE=whitey19thcentury;873250]Well, I am 31 years old and have been actively buying and selling vintage sports memorabilia since, literally, in the hall of high school.
I was born in '79, so my first steps into the sports collecting world was during the card boom of the 80s. Like any kid of the era, I couldn't get enough Canseco rookie cards. However, I noticed a few dealers at shows who sold nothing but older stuff. My mom and grandma bought me some older Pirates memorabilia (Clemente-era stuff). Soon, I was reading books about baseball history and was hooked. In high school, I was fortunate to sell my card collection for a decent price and started to buy and sell vintage (pre-1970 sportscards). I attended my first live Hunt Auction when I was a senior in HS, and still remain the youngest attendee at their auctions. It was then I became strictly devoted to selling vintage baseball memorabilia, and, especially autographs, which I began studying diligently during this era.

QUOTE]

Glad to see someone around my age, I'm 33, into vintage memorabilia and autographs. I feel sometimes like I am a dying breed of younger collectors who are into the vintage items. I remeber in High School and College talking about autographs that I had, and most of my friends never even heard of the players.
One thing I really miss about this hobby is the lack of Card Shows. It seemed like almost every month my father was driving me to shows all over NJ. Now they seem like they are few and far between.

As I said before auction houses KILLED it - STAMP OUT AUCTIONS Dealers are now becoming auction houses - alot easier making 30% and not laying any money out or humping the cards and material in and out - standing 40 hours a weekend and eating shity food - and overpaying to support the promoters - who by the way are now auction houses. I could go on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To play devil's advocate, card shows and shops were dying out long before auction houses came along. I remember around my area (about 25 miles away from Pittsburgh), there were literally like 5-6 shows a month, with 2 or 3 regular monthly shows. Those aren't counting the big one at the Palumbo Center with awesome autograph guests.

There were also stores in the mall and two great stores I used to frequent within 10-15 minutes from my house.

Those were both gone in the early 90s, long before the advent of online auctionhouses and TeleTrade, for that matter. Same with the amount/quality of shows.

There was the card boom of the 80s, then nothing. Sure, the Internet and Auction Houses put the final nail in the coffin, so to speak, but auction houses really didn't catch steam/popularity until a decade or so ago.

Plus, the majority of auction houses don't carry/sell/deal with the kind of items one would find at a normal local show. I know. The stuff at the only bi-monthly show in my area is beyond putrid, with only, literally 2 dealers with quality stuff I would even consider looking at.

I am biased but....
 

So I am biased but.....the fact of the matter is that collectors aren't buying fixed price cards in today's somewhat down market. They are waiting for auctions to see if they can either steal them, or at most, pay what the market will bear. I feel that most auctions today, except ebay, are fairly clean of shilling. And I doubt most auction houses make 30%. Maybe you should understand what you are talking about a little more before you speak? My small auction takes in 12.5% of a sale (total). That is, many times, less than ebay. Personally, I like auctions, participate in dozens of them and hope they continue and prosper. Otherwise, the cards/memorabilia we really want might not get sold in other venues. I have a solution for you though. If you don't like auctions don't bid in them. And good luck finding those tough items at fixed prices which you feel are a good deal. I too could go on and on :). regards

I think the change in lifestyle represented by technology, video games, and internet is what has decreased young people entering in to the hobby.
1)There is much more competition for their time and money than ever before. To many young people, baseball is a slow boring game as compared to playing Halo on their PS3 teamed up with other people from across the world.
2) You combine that with the ridiculously high prices for autograph show guests.
3)Plus all the new shiny stuff that is neither cheap to buy nor retains its value for a significant time.
What we are left with are young people that are distracted, broke, and frustrated. What can be done to get them to want to take the time to collect vintage cards, autographs, etc?

Each advancement comes with good and bad. Ebay has opened up collcting across the country, but also opens up the market for fraud and decreases the number of shows. Auctions also negatively effect shows, but do allow many to be exposed to a far wider range of items to purchase.
There is a place for all types of collecting venues.

Mike,
Just remember the stuff won't come with any certs!

There's as many as 2 auctions a week and many major auctions are running once a month internet auctions and charging 19.5 % buyer premium -and depending on the deal they strike with the seller another 10% is added - with all these auctions it takes away the element of surprise - trying to find that gem - it's not a down market - our shop has never done as well - people enjoy talking and seeing what new stuff came in - thats just my opinion - i know it's old school - but it does help bring in some young collectors that may open their eyes to vintage material - in no way am i saying every auction is bad - but there's enough that are

A major part of the problem with retail today is prices are not realistic. Collectors often travel to shows only to find prices double what they feel they should be. They can almost always get a better deal bidding in an auction. And I would guess that the typical commission an auction house makes is in the range of 12-19%. I don't think too many could get away with charging 30% total commissions.

But I do agree that there are many auctions out there today, and for some collectors it's hard to keep up.

As a buyer & seller, I like the auction houses both big & small
as well as the standardized eBay w/ the fixed prices & occasional
auction as well as a good old fashioned show.

As a buyer & a seller, its great to have options.
The economy has more to do w/ the erratic market then any sale venue
for the cards. As I've seen low & high prices at auction houses, eBay
and at shows.

1) To say that there were no need for third party authenticators before third party authenticators doesn't necessaily understand that it is a different collecting world with more emphasis on purchasing things through scans and photos, instead of a show or a periodical and there has been a massive increase in fraud.

2) I don't collect because of the fraud and I know a number of people who don't either. Six former collectors. I always wanted a Babe Ruth ball, but since there are so few people I trust, I choose to invest/spend those moneys in other collecting avenues. You say "these guys are good", but those guys are hardly known to the average collector and if PSA/DNA, Jimmy Spece go down, there will be uncertainty with everything they have ever authenticated and nobody will know what is actually good or bad as I find it almost impossible to believe that even a small percentage of the ones offered monthly are good as while the Babe signed, did he sign that much? Not to mention I have heard some horror stories about even the better sellers and wasn't Halper one of the better people in the hobby? So if the two bigger firms go down, everyone will assume that what they have is authentic (which they do anyways even the Morales pundits) and we will be far worse off as a hobby to not have faith in at least someone.

3) I have never purchased an item at fixed rate (eBay) because nothing is rare anymore (it seems) and I will always see it later on or get it cheaper in an auction. Sad to think that way but there all the catalogs I get agree with my assessment of the current state of collecting.

Regards,

Larry

I agree Leon, as a small time Estate auction worker in NJ we pull in about 12-14 % of the hammer but we still have to hump alot of heavy stuff and not in good way LOL

This is like saying "I'll never go in the water again if the maker of my water wings fails."

Learn to swim.

Larry, with all due respect, there is still a lot of rare items out there to be had. Just a few moments ago, I was looking at a respected dealer's fixed price listings on eBay. He had upwards of several hundred items that could be considered rare if not one-of-a-kind. Over the years, I have taken advantage of numerous fixed price/Buy-It-Now items on eBay b/c of rarity.

I am not one to show off pieces in my collection, but I can think of 5 things off of the top of my head that I purchased on eBay that I know would sell for way more in several auctions.

As someone who both buys and sells on eBay and buys from/consigns with several auctionhouses, I can speak from experience when I say this: Sure, there are items that can be had cheaper at auction, but in a lot of cases, there are way more "steals" on eBay. Having the time and patience to search eBay really pays off.

This was done with PSA a while back also, and that can be seen on behindthegavel.com

NOW, psa uses their dalb of "DNA" to put on a item that they fail, so if they fail a item and it's sent back, it will have the stuff on the item, so that's why you see this going on with JSA a lot as he does not put anything on a item if he fails it.

I know that people have called him for quotes on items and the first thing they ask is "where did it come from" if you say you have a letter from CLM, they will tell you, it's fake, get a refund if it's not too late.

They don't learn at all and keep doing stuff like this.

If your item has a CLM letter then it IS fake...unless of course you sent him a legit item just so you could try and trick JSA or PSA/DNA...but people don't send legit items to Christopher Morales...they send their legit items to legit authenticators. They send fake items to Morales so they can sell it to uneducated collectors.

Dan I agree with what you are saying, but shouldn't JSA and PSA be more open minded?

I mean, it is possible someone out there finds an autograph and sends it to Morales and then later on realizes he is unworthy and his COA is worthless.

I realize this would be a very rare situation but if someone is paying JSA and PSA good money they deserve an unbiased analysis of their item.

Not sure if you saw the story about the judge that threw out the testimony of Morales in a lawsuit. I doubt the folks at JSA or PSA would have been able to do much better in proving to the judge, that they are qualified to render opinions on autographs. At least JSA and PSA try to do the right work, and do the right certification, but when it comes down to it, they may not have the credentials or scientific education of a real hand writting expert.

PSA has had their letters thrown out of court too, fighttoys.com took them to court, and PSA lost. Their opinion means NOTHING to a court of law.

name please
 

RingKing- You need to read the rules AND put your full name in your posts, per the rules. Same rules for everyone. If you don't understand something please PM me, email me or post it here, and I/we will explain. Nothing personal...just the rules. Thanks for your compliance.

Hi Cori,

it's been a long time since we spoke! Glad you are here - I think I was the only ring-collecter here before you showed up!

name please
 

Sports-rings- don't you think you should put your name out here too?

This is like saying "I'll never go in the water again if the maker of my water wings fails."

Learn to swim.

What kind of mumbo-jumbo is that?

We get it, you are all knowing sage, blah, blah, speak in riddles, blah, blah, all authenticators are bad, blah...

I don't collect because of all of the deceit either...for the record, and I can swim. I just don't enjoy the hobby anymore.

After reading the TTA thread and his comments (about CCSA), educate your fellow Ring guy.

DanC

Wow! Responding to a month-old post! Ya just wake up?
It's only a riddle to an extremely tiny mind.

To be fair, this thread was dredged up earlier today by a new member.

:cool:

typical and expected response

DanC

Leon,

I thought the policy of placing one's name was optional unless your post consisted of controversial or critical comments?

Anyway, as you requested, I added my name.

Hi

I am really late to this conversation, but wanted to add a few thoughts that haven't been covered elsewhere.

* In my view, an authenticator needs to look at the whole picture, and a big part of the picture is provenance. If an item appears to have originated from a known source of forgeries -- no matter how "good" the autograph looks -- the provenance should weigh heavily on the findings. If The Marino family was submitting items, would anyone want PSA or JSA ignoring that fact when evaluating?

Also, some items JSA reviewed had hologram stickers peeled off. Is it possible they took note of that fact and that also weighed on the evaluation? Why would an authentic item be altered?

I think JSA probably should have returned a "no decision" rather than a rejection. But, autographs are not like people. I'd rather see a good autograph condemned than let 10 fakes walk free.

JSA and PSA are far from perfect, but they are still right probably 90% - 95% of the time. Compare that to the track record of their critics.


* Regarding the comments that authenticators are not necessary and all collectors have to do is educate themselves...

This viewpoint is somewhat ego-centric and ignores the eality of the modern market.

Not all of us have been collecting for 40 years. We all haven't had the opportunity or access to amass a collection of in-person signatures to study.

What if my wife wants to buy me a signed photo for my birthday? Should she study for years prior to making the purchase?

In a perfect world we wouldn't need PSA, JSA or Richard Simon... but the world is far from perfect. These services are popular because they are obviously serving a need.

Steve Zarelli

No. She should buy from a reputable dealer, one who has "studied for years," and who fully guarantees his wares.

No third party required.

Upon what data do you base the above? How many PSA/JSA authenticated items were looked at? What method was used to determine whether their determination was correct?

Or did you just make it up?

You strike me as someone who always needs to get the last word and picks everything apart, so I'll just amend my comment to:

JSA and PSA are far from perfect, but they are still right the vast majority of the time. Compare that to the track record of their critics.

And I'll leave it at that. :rolleyes:

Steve Zarelli

It all boils down to this guys.......

The trusted third parties are right the majority of the time, BUT so are trusted dealers and you dont have to pay for a letter from them and they will stand behind the item whereas the authenticators will not stand behind their opinion.

Rhys Yeakley

It has nothing at all to do with the last word, and you can roll your eyes as much as you want. Your quantitative assessment given previously, and your qualitative assessment given above are nothing but opinions, pulled out of thin air. They are based on nothing substantial.

JSA and PSA get it right more often than they get it wrong. (I can't prove it, but I think all here will agree.) But the same can be said for anyone who's collected for a few years. The crucial thing, though, as Rhys pointed out, is that the third parties do not stand behind their opinions in any way.

and they also get paid for their opinion

I don't disagree with this and I don't recall anyone else in the thread doing so either. If there is something I'm looking for, the trusted dealers are where I look first.

That said, they always don't have what I'm looking for, so the next stop is eBay or a dealer I may not be as familiar with. This is where TPAs add value in my opinion.

In the past I've been fairly critical of TPAs, even writing an award-winning article in the Pen & Quill several years ago that was highly critical of TPAs.

That said, generally they provide a beneficial service and I don't understand the level of hostility toward them. :)

Could you provide a link for your article on TPA?

P&Q is not online, but I'll see if I can dig up a copy and post scans. :)

Thanks...Mr. Zipper:confused: Would like to read it.

Zipper makes a good point. If my wife wants to get me a Derek Jeter autograph for Christmas she is lost as who are the trusted dealers? She won't know.

That's why forensics thrive. Their qualificiations prove that they should know something and when you have someone making a purchase, mostly they care about the LOA that proves the item is authentic. People who educate themselves know what to look for, but the casual gift giver is lost.

If JSA or PSA/DNA get it right 90-95%, I'll eat my hat. And yes, third party authenticators should be responsible for their mistakes if proven that they were incorrect.

Regards,

Larry

Be patient if you cannot get what you want from the good dealers.
There are enough good dealers out there and a few good trusted auction houses and if you stick with them you should be in good shape. And the good dealers can usually turn up most items if you give them enough time.
I think most of us know who the good dealers really are,,, stay with them and you can build a terrific collection.

I guess my difficulty lies with the term "opinion". If TPG is merely an opinion that is subject to change, then these companies should issue an LOO (Letter of Opinion) rather than the signed, sealed and delivered LOA (Letter of Authenticity). The word "Authenticity" means the issuer should stand behind their decision and there is very little room for error.

James

This is not always true. I had a good experience where PSA made good on a 9 year old mistake to the tune of $900.00.

And the piece in question was purchased (already authenticated by PSA) from a so-called reputable dealer, who despite his written guaranty refused to offer a refund. Had Joe Orlando not stepped in I would not have been made whole.

Well, it was very nice of him to do that. But PSA's small print says they are in no way legally required to do so. When that small print is removed, and Mr Orlando puts into writing that he will guarantee PSA's opinion for every customer, I'll change my tune.

Read the story earlier and it is amazing. Sure does cast JSA in a very poor light.


http://www.amazon.com/b?%5Fencoding=...&creative=9325

Interesting serve and volley in this thread guys....
Thanks!

One can't help but wonder about the motives of the people running the referenced web site. It certainly appears that they wish to destroy and/or completely delegitimize PSA and JSA. And now it appears the new Autograph Quarterly magazine is backed by the same concerns and will be preaching a parallel message.

While they are admittedly far from perfect, does anyone really think the hobby would be better off without TPAs entirely?

Wouldn't constructive dialog and criticism be a better approach than an attack web site run by [supposedly] anonymous parties?

I do! :)

How did I know you would say that?!?!?

:D

Right you are zipper
Kevin Martin's selling venue : http://www.russoandsteele.com/memorabilia.html worth a close look

Is "Sharpie" Steve Koschal?

IS "Paul Sturgis" Todd Mueller ?

Travis Roste is one of the main posters along with sharpie and sturgis

Look close at what everyone flip flops on - JSA and PSA have become such a Huge presence - many employees and they show up at lots of locations - Card shows - Home visits - Resturants for 2500.00 - they will show up. Now we come to the educated collector/authenicater - We all want special attention to our items that we sell or collect - we don't want the factory feel that we get at JSA and PSA - I would like to recommand 2 people i recently started using - both pick up the phone - both are masters in there field and give you the sense of security we all look for. Kevin Keating and Richard Simon - at a recent convention i showed a 39 Giants Team signed ball to Kevin and he explained the Greenburg auto being early and a little different - JSA did not like it - gave him the ball and i received the ball and cert back within a few days. ---------------- I called Richard Simon sent him clear scans of a few items and he was back to me within 24 hours - i'm now sending him the items for final review - Class Act -
It's always best to know what your looking at - but many times i look for a second set of eyes - hard to trust anyone after what were all reading.

I agree, you can't go wrong with Kevin or Richard.

read the rules please
 

Redsoxrule,
Read the rules please. You are more than welcome to say this but your name has to be in your post. You can either edit out your comments or put your name by them. Certainly nothing personal and same rules are for everyone. Thanks for your cooperation. PM me if there is anything you don't understand or want to talk about off line. regards

Hey Frank . . .
 

.


. . . just curious as to what a Greenberg (Hank ?) signature is doing on a 1939 Giants (N.Y. ?) team signed ball ?

Any ideas ?


Thanks.

My mistake - should be 39 Tigers - also had a 39 giants - check the ball and cert on my ebay user name --- frankjprisco