Awesome thread. Derek, I could care less one way or another about your reprints but you've spent an awful amount of time in order to make $5. Are things that slow?

I think the OP might be from Chicago and once owned a nice back collection for about a month before going into the fraud print business.

Seriously, if you're not in favor of either the selling of reprints here or the thoughts and messages of the OP, the best thing you can do it ignore this thread, stop bumping it and let it -- and the OP -- fall off the board.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd guess most people wouldn't have as big a problem with these if the original reprint writing was left on during the aging process. I'd bet most here don't have as big a problem with reprints that are clearly marked. The biggest issue here, I believe, is that these appear created to deceive. Even if the OP is listing them as reprints and selling as such, others won't.

I've bought t206 reprints on this site and no one ever attacked that seller. However, the cards were all clearly marked as reprints. The OP clearly has been stirring the pot in his defense of these cards whether intentional or not.


Personally I have a project that I'd like to do and can't afford and don't want to use originals for it and these reprints would work nicely. I was at a sportsbar where I noticed the tables had cards laminated in some way into the surface. The cards used were like 1994 UD or something, but I thought it might be cool to do something similar witha coffee table and vintage reprints. The cost for originals would be too much and I wouldn't want to destroy them in a table. That's why I previously expressed interest in the cards.

I smell Peter Chao or whatever his name was. Seems to be just egging everyone on.

Chao never owned any cards this nice!

It is?:confused::confused:

Hey Leon.

You may remove my membership from your Forum. Thank you guys for some good discussions. Happy collecting

derek

"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. "
— Hunter S. Thompson

"Everybody is a horse's ass except for me and Ed Smith."
— Albert M. Yost

LOL I had (almost) forgotten all about that guy!

I might've been interested in an aged Lard Jusberg rookie repro.

I actually watched Peter Chao buy a '63 Topps Mantle at card show, so I know he owned at least one nice card. Plus, from what I recall, all Peter did was ask a lot of annoying questions. This guy thinks he knows all the answers, which in my mind is far more irritating ...

As for selling reprints here, it seems to me like the "Everything Else" category is most appropriate place to sell these things. I still don't like them, but I agree they would make nice wall paper or a laminated counter top to spill beer on ...

you guys are fun to talk to. with your fact-less opinions on things. socialism is the way to go huh. if you dont like it then opinions have to go. Why dont while you guys are wiping your ass with the constitution you go ahead and wipe you ass with the bill of rights.

It's NOT your opinions we dislike. It's the fact that you have created something that has the potential to do harm to the hobby we love.

I think this thread has gotten a bit out of hand. I don't think anyone ever said you CAN'T sell reprints, it certainly is not illegal. I believe the overwhelming opinion on this board is that they are harmful when not marked properly as such and altered to look as if they are "vintage". Obviously, as in life, many have opinions, some stronger than others. In my opinion, it just seems that this sort of product does not go over very well here. I am sure you can see how producing such cards could be construed by some as dangerous and deceitful, can't you? I certainly would leave religion and politics out of any argument here, that will get you absolutely nowhere.

His opinions aren't so hot either. Yes, and the cards are bad too. And these are his first posts on the board. Nothing good has come out of this thread.

I can understand how someone can get burned buying a fake card but a fake rolex ?

So what exactly is your defense for selling the below card in one of your storefronts?

http://www.atomicmall.com/seller.php?id=62383

http://www.atomicmall.com/cpic/28/62383-1289865483.jpg

Horrible stuff here.

Nicely played. Game. Set. And Match.

We have moved from phony cards to phony cards in phony slabs.

+1.

for various reasons
 

For various reasons I made a management decision and moved this to the front page for all to see. Many, many members don't look at the place that it was on the BST side. I will also reiterate my position on banning and censoring. I am very much against it unless there is something extraordinary that leads to that decision....or multiple infractions etc.... I truly believe that we can learn a lot from these types of threads. Happy collecting!!

How about telling people to wipe their ass with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Does that qualify as crossing the line?

yes
 

Yes it does....and quite honestly Barry, if you ran the board it would have been shut down 3578 times now because of this kind of stuff. As I told you earlier this guy is on a short leash...but it's also important to let people stick their feet in their mouths too (imo)......I don't think we should help save people from themselves. I am sure others will disagree, and some will agree, but this has always been my MO.....regards

btw, my 14 yr old has heard the word "ass" many times.....it's not in the top 10 of "dirty words" that can't be said on the board....and also, nothing personal here. You are certainly one of my favorite people in the hobby and I consider you beyond a "hobby" friend...

Barry

Parchment is not very absorbant from what I hear anyways, but repro Baseball Cards are. Hopefully there is nothing that chaffe's in his "artificially aging" chemicals!

Rhys

Can't believe i missed all this fun. The topic threw me off and i didn't click... but i noticed it was over 100 so i thought something must be going on.

Derek, you made a statement in one of your posts i think sums it all up.

"I was an uneducated buyer and got took for $400 bucks"

I am amazed the grammar police here didn't arrest you!

As for wiping my ass with the constitution, id rather use your cards!

Hey Leon- nothing personal taken. I was just stirring the pot a little. I don't like this guy.:mad:

btw, my 14 yr old has heard the word "ass" many times.....it's not in the top 10 of "dirty words" that can't be said on the board....

It didn't make George Carlin's list so no foul. I was having an Abbie Hoffman flashback when he started talking about cleaning with the Constitution.

Jeff- I once drove Abbie Hoffman from Long Island to Manhattan...now he was an ass. Didn't even say thank you for the ride. True story.

He was probably so tripped out on lsd that he thought he was on a spaceship and you were LBJ.

Barry,

Now that is a "Brush With Greatness." Never met him but I can see it. That must have been some car ride!

So Barry's NOT LBJ?

He was a jerk. He was speaking at a college and needed a ride afterwards into the city. I was heading back to Brooklyn so I offered. He was surly and rude the whole ride. When I got to the toll booth of the Queens-Midtown Tunnel, there were cops milling about and I felt like handing him over. When we got to his street he slammed the car door and left without saying a word. There was another passenger in the back seat who was getting on his nerves so that probably precipitated it. He had issues.

This was my smile of the week. :D

Barry....

The only issues any of us had back 40 years ago or so would have been issues of National Geographic, or something like that. Only recently has this new, additional definition been associated with 'issues'. Back then we had problems. Right?

Good point Frank. This was 1981, so not quite that long ago.

My irresistable not-to-respond pet peeve...
 

...is when people think that our Nation's Constitution gives them the freedom to post a particular opinion on a privately run internet chat board.

The 1st Amendment does not require in any way, shape or form that Leon has to tolerate anything you might say about anything. Leon has an unfettered right to ban you.

And, more to the point, we all have the unfettered right to criticize you -- subject to Leon's unfettered right to ban us for criticizing you too harshly.

This board is not a democracy. It is a totalitarian dictatorship, with a benevolent dictator. And most of us are completely fine with that!

Carry on..... :D

Tbob,

I can't take credit for it. Randy Galloway of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and ESPN Radio in Dallas, uses it to describe what happened when Billy Sims left Texas high school and went college at Oklahoma. (IQs in both states went up...)

Mine was but an adaptation.

Jim- Whilst we have heard the quote before, we think the reference to "he who shall not be named (but happily banned)" was hilarious. :D

Not to mention from Texas - which may or may not even be part of the Union.

Leon, let me just say that you're one of the most level headed administrators
I've ever seen on these internet thingys :)

Stayed out of this but I too have a pet peeve whenever some misinformed person pulls out the Bill of Rights and the Constitution to protect their "free speech." The Bill of Rights says nothing about your right to say anything. What it talks about is the restriction on the government (specifically the Congress) from creating any laws restricting your right to free speech.
For reference the First Amendment actually reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I will never be arrested for yelling louder than you which is technically restricting your free speech. Never happen. Why, because it is totally legal and the Bill of Rights says nothing about that. Leon can ban you which does not make him a socialist (don't get me started on that view either) or a criminal. It makes him a citizen.

Most "laws" concerning free speech have been created through the actions of the judicial department in interpreting the Constitution and the common laws of the land.

So Derek...to you, I say be quiet, shut your mouth, shut your trap, take it elsewhere, cram it in your piehole, shut off the word faucet, take some pepto for your diarrhea of the mouth, stick your head back in the sand (but take it out of your butt first), hush your mouth, put a sock in it, zip it, pipe down, cut the chatter, children should be seen and not heard, simmer down, etc....none of which is illegal or trampling on your rights. So sorry.

Joshua

Joshua

Maybe we can wipe our asses with your "3 day aged reprints"

I've seen this show before..... it was called 1 Vs. 100

It's funny, the Jordan Rc looks like it came out of the same pack as the Goudey Ruth. Why would you artificially age a card from the 80's, just sayin'.

Because the Constitution specifically says you can.

Maybe he can join forces with Collectors Forensic Register -- I sense a business opportunity here.

I've got serious post envy here.

That guy almost surpassed my total on his first thread.

I think my next thread will have to be about the constitution. Or maybe Keith Olbermann.

Leon,

I don’t think we should help save people from themselves either. Call me cold hearted or whatever, but I think when people get scammed (be it by a “reprint” baseball card, Nigerian lottery or whatever), it’s their own fault for being greedy and falling for something that is too good to be true.

I defended the OP in his original thread. After seeing the Wagner card in this thread I have since changed my mind. I think removing the word “reprint” from a card is a pretty crappy thing to do. Regardless of my opinion though, I still think the seller has a right to sell his garbage.

However, that is not my decision, obviously that is yours. However, if you are going to let him sell his junk (even though it was listed in the wrong section), doesn’t he have a right to list it without being interfered with?

That’s how all this started and I am pretty sure the OP wouldn’t have acted the way he did or said the things he said if other members wouldn’t have interfered in his thread - I just don’t think it would have come to this point.

One of the other mods wrote a while back, “In the B/S/T area there should be no interference in the posts by 3rd parties.” Does this not hold true even in this case? I’m not sure why there are such rules if they’re not going to be enforced?

Regards,

David

David - would you ask such a "rule" to be enforced even if a seller was selling a bad card and passing it off as authentic? Perhaps it's more of a guideline...

So, David, just for argument let's say your dad were to think enough of you that he unknowingly bought you one of these cards at an inflated price for you as a birthday gift? Just because he's not knowledgeable about the cards I suppose that's his burden to get burned? Is that ok with you? If he were to buy it off of the B/S/T thread, would you want anybody to warn him?

Just asking.

Rob M.

Matt,

Hello! Certainly I wouldn’t ask that such a rule be enforced if a seller was selling a bad card and passing it off as authentic.

But that’s not the case here. He’s description clearly tells the buyer what they are getting (even if it is garbage).

I certainly understand the point that other posters have made as to how some unsuspecting buyer could get burned by one of these “reprints” somewhere in the future. However, I have always believed (and lived my life) with the “buyer beware” mentality. I have never bought a watch from somebody selling them from their trench coat. I have never bought electronics from the trunk of someone’s car. I have never bought a designer purse for $25 from someone peddling them on a street corner. Etc, etc. etc. I think you get my point.

Again, I understand the concerns of others, but it is ultimately the responsibility of the buyer to know what they are buying. If someone buys one of his ’33 Goudey Ruth’s on eBay for $150 somewhere down the road, what does that tell you about the buyer? It tells me that their own GREED was the motivational factor in their buying decision, thinking they were buying something for a fraction of the normal price. In other words, it if sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Regards,

David

Rob,

There are 2 issues separate issues in your question.

First, if he were to buy it off the B/S/T thread as you suggested, then he would clearly know what he was buying because it says “Reprint” in the title and body of the posting. The $5 cost would be the other dead giveaway.

Second, if he were to buy it at an inflated price as you also suggested (be it eBay, Cragislist, etc), then yes, that would be his own ignorance for not doing his homework first.

Let’s turn the question around. Let’s say your son collects fine art paintings and has always desired a painting by a particular artist whose normal works sell in the $5K range. Let’s also say that you were financially in the position to buy one for him. Would you honestly spend that kind of money without doing a little homework first and knowing exactly what you were buying and who you were buying it from? The logical answer is of course you would, so I think the question you posed is a fair one, but kind of ridiculous at the same time.

Regards,

David

That is your assumption. However if it is an auction what if the purchaser had actually bid at whatever the value of an authentic Goudey Ruth is and the underbidder was the one trying to get something for nothing? It would sell for $150, but not due to the greed of the winner.

only the part we want to see?
 

Hi David,
You must have skipped over this part of that rule, which has been in the rules for years...

"Also, if any fraudulent activity is known about it can be posted in the BST threads, pertaining to that item, by 3rd parties. This is for the protection of the board. Caveat Emptor still is in effect."


Now, to me, erasing the word reprint from the reprint cards is almost akin to fraud, and certainly lends a hand downstream if someone wants to sell these as "I don't know if they are real or not". I don't care if he is selling them as reprints, when he erased that word he crossed the line, imo. Why on earth, if you were totally legit, would you erase that word?

How do we know that some of these reprints aren't home made? Depending on the year of issue, it is still illegal to reprint at home without permission. If there is no rule about selling illegally reprinted cards, I think that should be changed.

Because figuring that out has become too complex.

Take the Wagner he modified. Being 101 years old a Wagner T206 should be public domain and just fine to reprint along with all the other T206s. And yet....the text removed was a copyright notice and a licensing notice from Wagners estate. Add to that the possibility(99.9% sure) that the original Wagners were unlicensed and that possibly the owner of a particular Wagner would have some legal control over images of the physical item. All of it makes for a mess that only an IP lawyer would like.

Anyone consider reporting his "aging" to Wagners estate? I wonder what their take on it would be. Likely at least one letter "educating" him about removing their copyright notice and producing a derivative work. Just like that place in the 90's that made 3d cards from laser cut Topps and Donruss cards. They were gone before I had a chance to buy one once the big companies lawyers got involved.

Steve B

not really the issue, I don't think
 

I don't think copyright or trademark infringement is the issue here. Even if it is (I am obviously not a lawyer so don't know for sure one way or the other) my concern, and where it relates to this board, is the opportunity for someone to be defrauded. Reprints have a place in the hobby if they are being sold with complete transparency and honesty. Erasing the word "reprint" and also artificially aging, crosses those boundaries, to me. Maybe not in the eye of the law, but to me, they do cross them. And the reason I moved this to the front page, again, is because I would rather this stuff be in the open than pushed under the covers. Quite a few new collectors read the board and it's a good intro into these shenanigans.

Barry, I don't think the Belgian's are in the Congo anymore, but if invited, I'll visit you ........ :)

Barry that is very Alec Baldwinesque of you.

In my opinion you guys are unsuccessfully defending your argument. I got an idea, if this is going to keep going less do a q&a type thing. Direct ?'s to me or anyone else on here. You guys don't like reprints about as much as me not liking pizza on the bar at a Chinese buffet. It just ain't right.

Have you ever bought a car without a test drive or a mechanic checking it out? Or ever bought a home without an appraisal? If you weren't born yesterday then you probably already know that you should check stuff out before you buy it. The house wife's & uneducated hobbyists that you guys talk about getting taken advantage of on a reprint are probably the same people that get ripped off buying homes, cars and just about anything else.

If you have then unfortunately you are one of those people who will probably get burned on a baseball card. Will probably get burned on a car purchase and about anything else of perceived value or necessity

Someone please tackle these questions instead of just taking bits and pieces of a paragraph and using it for your own poorly researched and unfounded comments.

I'll start off with a few to get it started. A couple is really important to me to clear up what i referred to as i would never use the genocide of a people to be a point in defending reprint baseball cards.

1. When I was making references to the NSDAP or NAZI party, that I mentioned anything about the holocaust?

2. Would you agree that the only reference made when speaking of the NAZI party was there restriction on civil liberties and resources for the German people?

3. For those who smoke or drink: On your personal property, in your house, or in a smoking section that someone has the moral authority to tell you to cease your activities because they disapprove?

Free speech means the right to shout 'theatre' in a crowded fire.
-Abbie Hoffman-

Leon: Thank you for moving this to the front page. Not sure I would have caught this post otherwise. You and all the other folks here really do a GREAT job for this hobby we all adore (most of the time). Happy Holidays! Barry

I'll say it again Rob.

Have you ever bought a car without a test drive or a mechanic checking it out? Or ever bought a home without an appraisal? If you weren't born yesterday then you probably already know that you should check stuff out before you buy it. The house wife's & uneducated hobbyists that you guys talk about getting taken advantage of on a reprint are probably the same people that get ripped off buying homes, cars and just about anything else.

If you have then unfortunately you are one of those people who will probably get burned on a baseball card. Will probably get burned on a car purchase and about anything else of perceived value or necessity.

I can almost hear you think from where I am sitting. Yes Rob, some people who sell cars, houses and wait should i say it............ Well ok, Baseball cards, yes baseball cards. I know how could you ever think that in the days of "Leave it To Beaver" that J. Edgar Hoover & McCarthy could possibly be on a witch hunt for communists in this country.

So brings me back to my point. Yes, if David's dad didn't do his research and didn't exercise common sense then he could be potentially ripped off by someone selling a fraudulent baseball card. I'd hate to already have paid for the care only to find out that there was no engine in it because i trusted the guy and he told me i didnt have to testdrive it.

Come on people, stupidity and ignorance is to blame for too many of this country's problems.




Some unscrupulous people in this world sell

This is a question of morals and ethics. Obviously you don't have any, plane and simple. So be it. No need to convince us anymore. We got it. You'd actually fit in quite nicely with a group of folks in Nigeria.

Rob M.

Please stop trying to flood the hobby with your junk aged reprints. And since you like to ramble, how about explaining why you remove the word "REPRINT" from your "creations"? Is it not to mislead ? This has been brought up a few times, but you seem to dodge the issue.

Derek,
I will answer one of your questions...here is the problem with your analogy...most adults are buying cars and houses and have some experience and yet they still make mistakes. Our small claims courts are populated by people who still make mistakes and not doing the research. That is not the problem as I see it.

The problem is kids and young adults. Someone buys one of your cards and turns around and sells it on ebay, another forum, craig's list, facebook, etc. where children have access. The kids buy it thinking they found a great deal. Who does this hurt? Children, teens, and anyone else trying to find hidden treasure.

I will turn it around. I buy a fake postal money order from someone who says it is fake in the ad. I will gladly give you that counterfeit postal money order for one of your cards. It looks totally real to the untrained person (you). You take it, send me the card and realize that the money order was a fake. Should the blame be on you because you did not do the research? According to your arguments, it is absolutely on you.

Joshua

No truer words have ever been posted...

"Some unscrupulous people in this world sell"

Do your research and learn some history before you banter and make a fool outta yourself.

Current History Lesson:
Nigeria's government is called a federal republic government.
The United States gov is called federal republic.

Lesson for you: When you act without the proper research you are liable to be wrong or get screwed.

If you like i gotta great deal on a Wagner card for ya. Mint condition. My grandfather told me he got it from Babe Ruth when he worked at Wrigley field in the '50s. Would you like to make an offer on this card?

No everyone don't tell him that ruth died in '48. he will never know he he

Derek,

Stop trying argue your points. You will never convince anyone here that what your doing is ok. If you would have read a few threads before taking a dump on the BST, you would have realized that this board is full of people who are passionate about old cardboard. The people here love to see new collectors get their first cards. No one here will agree that the new collector that got burned by one of you cards is at fault.

While we're asking questions, why would you spend three days aging a card for five bucks?

Thank you josh for your post. I will try my best to reply.

1. In my opinion, the kids aren't at risk for these cards. Kids: defined as 13 and under. Scammers aren't going to market there cards to them because they aren't stupid enough they are getting a real '48 Ruth card for $20 bucks or whatever they have in there mowing yard accounts. And yes you are right, people make mistakes. That's why they have warranties, appraisers and grading services. So that people have enough resources in front of them to not go into something that could cost them a lot of money ignorant.

2. You can send me a fake money order if you like. And you are correct. I am unfamilier with real vs fakes. But I am familiar with the fact that there are a lot of people in the world that will try to scam you, especially in this day and age. That I will either A. wait til it clears the bank, or B> google counterfeit money orders. And see what to look for. pic for reference


http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/...oney-order.jpg

Honestly I don't deal with the kind of people who i would need to question authenticity or not.

I think i get the picture now and understand why you guys could be so mad at reprints. I think that many of you while trying to burn someone got burned yourself.

Consider this. You see an add on craigslist about a '48 leaf ruth card. You see the scan and you see the price $350 bucks. That's cheap but not too cheap. You meet up with the guy he seems the normal guy. he says he needs the money to pay rent. you offer him $250 bucks for the card thinking your really shoving it in. he reluctantly agrees. you give him the $250 and go on about your way only to find out that you weren't the one lowballing a guy down on his luck he was actually scamming you.

So the tough guy who stuck with the $250 price sending the guy back to his family $100 less than what he actually wanted got scammed. you knew that $350 was a fair price for that card but you knew you could take advantage of him because you perceived his ignorance.




Everyone gets scammed everyday. People believe that if i take this pill i will lose weight because Kathy Ireland said i would. Or Billy Mayes said this auger would til my entire garden, or at least that's what i saw on tv. Does it ever clean as good as it does on tv. How many people still buy into that crap.

matt,

Arguing my point? that was done on page one of the thread, now i am just responding to you guys.

I spend time doing it because its more of a tribute to the originals. Like singers covering a song, or actors performing on stage to a historic person.

I have a great love for the cardboard as well. It give me a certain satisfaction when a card comes out looking great. aging them is just a neat process to witness. taking a new card and making it look old is just fun to do

Its really not about the money. at $5 bucks a card even selling 100 cards a month that wont make my house payment. Its more of a hobby than a way to make money.

I have a small story for ya. I took my first cousins kids out for donuts one morning. 2 boys 9 and 11, they got in the car. my boy was in the backseat cause he still rides in a car seat and one of the older boys rode up front. he noticed a plastic bag with cards and immediately noticed the Wagner card in there. of course not really knowing what reprints are being in elementary school i educated them that morning about cards. Showing them my collection of cards, trivial as though it may seem a jerry rice rookie compared to a 33 goudey ruth buy the rice was real and the ruth was not.

I got to give them there first baseball cards. The ironic twist is that my first (there father) cousin 25 years earlier gave me some cards that i still had that i got to pass along to them while telling them how i got the cards. they were so excited about cards. i gave them several commons and tried to diversify it out so that they could appreciate collecting as i do. of course i knew what was on there mind too. they wanted one of the reprints i had. i let them pick there own card out. one picked a Ruth and the other a Gehrig. they both know that they aren't real cards. so now they got a nice collection of real cards and a couple of really nice reprints. and chances are when they get older when they hear goudey ruth for $500 nr/mt they will pickup and run.


In Response to this statement
"No one here will agree that the new collector that got burned by one of you cards is at fault."

I am sure that people on here will agree that these type of baseball cards are an investment and not the ones you throw in a shoebox.

When you spend 15k on a car you have it inspected by someone who knows more about it than you, right?

When you buy a house you acquire the services of a Realtor because they are more experienced in real estate transactions than the buyer.

Same thing with expensive cards. You drop 15k on what you think is a '33 goudey ruth and don't get it inspected by a "mechanic" Your in for bad news.


hope that answers your questions.

Good question, let me address that statement.

Why reprint is removed guys!!!

The other 95% of people including myself likes to sit back and thumb through the aged cards. Make believing that just for one sec that they actually own the real card. It adds to the authenticity of that.

Intent to mislead statement bothers me as the first post I stated these were reprints. i have no more authority from some dumba$$ who buys some from me to pass them off as fakes just as gun manufacturers don't have any authority over the person who buys the gun to intentionally kill someone with it.

I don't understand, you guys are either really paranoid or there is people out there selling reprints as real.

People who i sell them too are like me, enjoy the hobby. not try to steal from people by passing them off as real. That's a crime.

But just a few tips for ya if your browsing on ebay.

If you see stuff like this i'd stay away.

Ungraded babe ruth, must sell fast. Don't have time to grade

Not an expert selling as reprint

found at grandmas

There is no such thing as a good deal anymore. even granny knows what those ty beenies are worth nowadays.

That does not answer why you REMOVE the word reprint. Just say it, you remove it for the sole purpose of deception. You are a fraud, a crook and a cheat. No one here is paranoid, deception in this hobby exists and you just help to perpetuate it.

hey

I knew you got up this morning running downstairs to your pc just dying to know the answer to that question. The answer is right before your post, sir.

well said sir :)

i totally agree with you Leon. I would have never known about reprints like this if i hadn't have been burned myself. everyone whether they agree or disagree should be aware like in so many things in life people try and take advantage of others.

sorry guys for all the posts i am just now getting to respond to everyone.

Good point when you say that Leon has the authority to cease my free speech on the forum. and why, because i am on his turf? So i appreciate him letting me express my viewpoints as well because i am enjoying this conversation.

Got a question for you josh. you dont have to answer on the board, just answer it in your head. When you ride in another persons car do you feel compelled to change there radio station or toggle there a/c?

I got the idea from anther person selling them but stopped selling those because like you, i felt that was a little too far. Since then i had stopped selling them

whats on your bookshelf barry?