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Southern-born
Here's a few more T206 guys that I don't think were mentioned yet:
Boss Schmidt (Arkansas), Clyde Milan (TN), Bill Burns (TX), Ed Karger (TX), and Chief Wilson (TX). Ron R |
1st, I should've defined what was considered the "deep South", as it was referred to back then....it included Alabama,
Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina. There was lingering bitterness from the Civil War days by North- erners towards residents of these states. Look guys, I'm not making-up this Northern "predjudice" stuff. It is well documented; and, one of the more informative books on this is a biography of Connie Mack. I highly recommend it for those of you that enjoy reading in-depth stories about the various ballplayers in the T206 set....and, Joe Jackson's early days with the A's. And, thanks for coming up with a few more players, I was recalling research that I did years ago. Although, I'm surprised I forgot Stark and Street. Anyhow, adding your new inputs....Criss, Lavender, S. Smith, Stark, and Street....we have nine ballplayers from the deep South. This still just represents only 2.3 % of the 389 different subjects in the T206 set. You can dismiss this predjudice as a non-factor, that's your prerogative. But, it is what it is....and, I think it even played a role in the New York based ATC's decision to not include certain ballplayers from the deep South in their BB card sets. Of which, Shoeless Joe was the most notable. Was this predjudice also a factor when Kenesaw Mountain Landis banished Shoeless Joe from baseball ? From a US Air Force veteran, I wish you all a solemn Memorial Day. TED Z |
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Here's the list I have for your deep south players: Alabama - Street and Fritz Georgia - Cobb, Rucker, Foster, Lavender, and McElveen. Louisiana - Oaks Mississippi - Criss and Stark South Carolina - Coles and S. Smith Of the players in the T206 set I have recorded the birth places of 341. Of those 341, 229 were born in Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Illinois or Massachusetts. That leaves 112 for the rest of the country of which the 12 above deep south players make up 10% As a comparison Georgia - 5 Kansas - 8 Kentucky - 8 Maryland - 8 New Jersey -7 Iowa - 7 Maine - 6 Texas - 6 Virginia - 5 Minnesota - 4 Nebraska - 3 Tennessee - 3 Oregon - 2 Washington - 2 West Virginia - 2 Vermont - 2 New Hampshire - 1 Rhode Island - 1 South Dakota - 1 |
Tim
I am trying to follow your analysis, but I find it confusing. First of all, as you know, the T206 set comprises of 389 different
players. So, something isn't adding up with your numbers, please clarify. When we consider all 389, my math shows that only 11 (added Coles & Fritz) are from what was referred to as the deep South in the T206 era. That still is only 2.8 % of the set. Incidently, there are two Ed Foster's....one from Chicago and the other from Georgia....which one is in the T206 set ? And, I'm proud to say that Pennsylvania leads all the other states as the birthplace of the 389 guys in the T206 set. TED Z |
Deep South
Hi Ted,
I don't think anybody has listed all 389 T206 subjects by birth state so we may have incomplete information. Tim's research shows that a lot of states had poor representation in the T206 set. Almost all the major league franchises were in the NE and Midwest U.S. So it makes sense that most players are from those states. In that way, the owner 'magnates' were biased geographically. From my research, 1910 era players mercilessly made fun of players from the Deep South, but also rubes from farm towns, college boys, players who looked different, and players from other parts of the U.S. They were fighting to keep their jobs, and win games with mental warfare. Was there a bias against the Deep South? Yes. Ron |
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Ted - Sorry my explanations are confusing. Feel free to call me anytime. I don't have recorded the birth places of all 389 players in the T206 set. To date I have 341 and used the information I do have, though incomplete, for my comparison. To compare the deep south states to the following would certainly seem like there was a bias. Pennsylvania - 67 Ohio - 48 New York - 43 Illinois - 27 But when you take those states out and compare the deep south to other parts of the country they have similar numbers that would show that the representation in the T206 set is not proof of bias. Was there bias against the south? Surely there was, but it isn't reflected in the number of representatives in the T206 set. The 12 players in the "deep south" group have 17 different cards in the set. |
Tim - I agree with your posts here - I don't see Joe Jax being an intentional snub from T206 and therefore not from any of the later sets that re-used the T206 artwork - no player had new artwork commissioned for them for the later issues.
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Ron
Some years back, I researched all 389 (or is it 399) players in the T206 set. I am not about to type in all this info.
It looks like Tim has done the same. So, you are left to trust our data or check it out yourself. But, I have to differ with you regarding your.... "Almost all the major league franchises were in the NE and Midwest U.S. So it makes sense that most players are from those states." Back then, and over the years, there have been some great players from Texas and California. In California's case, it is very understandable, because of the PCL. Now, let's get back to Shoeless Joe. From the Connie Mack biography, that I alluded to in an earlier post, I'm paraphrasing some quotes with respect to Joe...... As a teenager, Joe was a ditch digger at the mills and developed powerful muscles. This translated into his powerful hits and the ability to throw a BB about 400 feet. According to Connie Mack, the sound of the crack of the bat when Joe hit the ball was something he had never heard of before. Connie Mack once said that Joe hit the longest HR that he ever saw, it traveled over 500 feet as it cleared the roof of the stadium. Connie Mack, who mainly recruited Collegians (Mack always contended that College coaching was better than any Minor Laegue coaching), had a lot of hope for Joe with the A's. However, Joe wouldn't "toe-the-line" with the A's policies and he hated being in the big city of Philly. TED Z |
Hey Matt
American Litho. (ALC) did not need to have....."new artwork commissioned " (to use your words).....regarding Joe Jax.
For, as we all know they had printed him in their 1910 OLD MILL (series 8) set. Therefore, it was a simple matter to re-use this image, and re-do his uniform and caption to reflect Cleveland in their subsequent T-card issues (T213, T214, T215). Indeed, ALC modified their T206 1909 images to produce subsequent cards in 1910 and 1911 for the following subjects...... G. Brown M. Brown Chance Chase Cobb Dahlen Demmitt Elberfeld Evers Kleinow Lundgren O'Hara F. Smith TED Z |
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"American Litho did not repeat the T210 images in the other sets. The other sets repeated the T206 images including T210. All of the sets that utilized the T206 images will not include Joe Jackson. " |
Perhaps a poll would be of interest here?
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It really isn't a complicated reason JJ was excluded from T206 and the T brand sets that use the same images. Any claim of snubbing or prejudice against him in relation to the T206 set is a red herring. |
This has been fun to read, and I have been learning alot in this thread.Tim, I think you gave the best and most convincing explanation in post#55. Not saying anyone else is wrong- just stating my opinion after reading this thread through a few times.
Clayton |
Tim does make some valid points, once again, and any other explanation regrading Jackson's exclusion from the set is at best far fetched.
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Shoeless Joe Jax DIVERSION, why isn't he in any 1911-1917 major T or E-card sets ?
Tim......two more things regarding the T206 Joe Jax enigma......then we move on to another ATC mystery.
1st...."T206 Ed Foster - Charleston"....is his team. Where was Foster born? There were two Ed Foster's in BB during that era. One is Edward Cunningham Foster (Chicago) and the other is Eddy Lee Foster (Alabama) ? 2nd......Your contention that all subsequent ATC sets are "slaved" to the T206 images may not be totally correct. American Litho. was printing the 350-only series in the Spring of 1910. Simultaneously, they were printing the T210's. Recall, that 14 of the Southern Leaguer's are "350-only" subjects. So, it isn't certain that these images were T206's before they were T210's. Three of these (off the top of my head) are Hart, Smith (Shrev.) and Thebo. So, I would not be so sure that all images were first T206's....because from a printing standpoint the colorless T210 images were first thru the press. For all you skeptics that have responded here that do not buy a bias against Joe Jax, then let's hear your explanation on this mystery. The HINDU brand was mainly marketed in New York state and New England states. It's cigarette factory (#649) was the Kimball plant in Rochester, NY. Approx. 180-T206's exist with the HINDU back, including all the major stars, except for Ty Cobb. Furthermore, the SWEET CAP- ORAL 150, Fac. 649 (overprint) series includes all the major stars, except for Ty Cobb. Do you dig where I'm heading with this ? Well, this intrigue gets better....the T205 Cobb exists with 6 (or 7) backs, except for HINDU. And finally, The T201 set does not portray Cobb in full picture on the front. This MECCA set relegates Cobb to the dinky picture on the back of Crawford. Oh Yes.... MECCA cigarettes were produced at Factory #649, just like the above brands. Gentleman, are these clear examples of excluding Cobb due to Northern predjudice......OR WHAT ? If you think not, I can't wait to hear your rationalizations on this mystery ? TED Z |
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And we know for a fact that they did not add any new 6 color prints after the completion of the T206 set to later sets that used the identical images. And lastly after doing further research today I can tell you that James Lafitte - Macon, and Edward Reagan - New Orleans previously being shown as birth place unknown were both born in Georgia. And for you Ted, Billy Nattress - Buffalo was born in PA. |
Boss Schmidt was from Coal Hill, Arkansas.
Ooops, sorry Ron, you already had him listed. There was a flood of talent from Arkansas in the major leagues but it didn't begin until the 30's and 40's with Hall of Famers Travis Jackson, Arky Vaughn, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, etc. |
Didn't Hindu produce a number of Southern Leaguers? Does that rebut any notion of prejudice?
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In a set of cards containing just under 400 players, 48 are in their own subgroup known as "Southern Leaguers." Yet somehow this company had a southern bias. There is IMO absolutely no evidence there was bias and at this point it's speculation with no facts to back it up. And to preempt any response on Cobb. He was one of the most prolific cards in the T206 set. He was a super print, had four front images, and his own back brand (arguably T206.) Not being printed at one factory does not automatically mean bias. I personally would need proof of bias and not just lack of any other explanation before I made that type of accusation. |
Bob M......
Regarding your......
" Boss Schmidt was from Coal Hill, Arkansas. Ooops, sorry Ron, you already had him listed. There was a flood of talent from Arkansas in the major leagues but it didn't begin until the 30's and 40's with Hall of Famers Travis Jackson, Arky Vaughn, Dizzy Dean, Bill Dickey, etc. " Since, Arkansas was not considered the deep South back in the T206 era, I would of expected more BB players from Arkansas in the T206 set. All this changed after WWI, where the early predjudices by some of the ball club owners began to vanish. And, as you noted, this new "Southern wave" in BB began in the 1920's and 1930's. By the way, don't forget my favorite Arkansan (besides Bill Dickey)....Johnny Sain. TED Z |
Ty Cobb/HINDU back
OK, you naysayers, if there is no hint of prejudice against Cobb at the Rochester plant, then I want to know WHY
his T205 and T206 cards were not inserted in cigarette packs produced at this Factory #649 plant ? When, as we know, the following regarding T206 cards of Cobb...... Green Portrait..........8 different backs Bat on Shoulder.......8 different backs Bat off Shoulder.....16 different backs Red Portrait...........22 different backs......ALC's "signature picture" Furthermore, every major T206 star in the 150 series is found with the Brown HINDU back, and most major stars in the 460 series are found with Red HINDU backs. Perhaps, you do not find this strange, but I find this to be very, very strange. So, all I am simply asking.....does anyone here have an explanation why none of the four T206 Cobb's, or the T205 Cobb were printed with HINDU backs ? TED Z |
Ted,
I am not sure about the timing but maybe it was because Cobb was going to have his own smoking tobacco (Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back) and instead of cannibalizing sales they decided to NOT print anymore cards of him for the T206 set and just do the Cobb back cards. Then, when that for some reason failed, it was too late to do factory 649 cards. David |
ctownboy
Your thought is interesting in that would only apply to the Red Portrait Cobb. The Ty Cobb back Cobb was printed
and issued in the Spring of 1910. American Litho. (ALC) used the Red portrait picture, since it was being printed at that same time. But, between the Spring and Winter of 1910, ALC printed the Red portrait Cobb with many tobacco advertising backs. However, for whatever reasons, ALC did not print this Cobb with the Red HINDU back. I conclude that the Rochester plant (Factory #649) did not want Cobb on their advertising premiums. The Bat Off Shoulder Cobb exists with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back and the UZIT back; therefore, it will not be found with a Red HINDU back (because this HINDU back is mutually exclusive with the AB 460 and UZIT backs). The Green portrait and the Bat On Shoulder versions of Cobb were printed in 1909, and for whatever reasons, were not printed with the Brown HINDU backs. Thanks for your interesting post. TED Z |
Arkansas/deep South
As an Arkansas native I would strongly disagree that the Cotton and Delta areas of Arkansas would not have been considered Deep South in 1910. Little Rock as well. More than other "Southern" states. Coal Hill would definitely not have, however. Which might explain why Boss Schmdit beat up Ty Cobb for assaulting a black groundskeeper and his wife. The coal areas of Arkansas produced a lot of good boxers...as Cobb found out.
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gabrinus
I have always considered Arkansas as part of the "deep South". But, the accepted "book" definition only includes Alabama,
Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina. Thanx for the Boss Schmidt/Cobb story. TED Z |
Ted, Gabrinus beat me to the punch. There is a world of difference between Western and more specifically Northwestern and Eastern and Southern Arkansas. The Northwest part of the State is more akin to Missouri which it borders and Western Arkansas is similar to Eastern Oklahoma. This might explain that why, like Kentucky, there were pockets of Unionist sympathy in the State during the War. Eastern and Southern Arkansas border on Missisippi and Louisiana and are absolutely Deep South. Despite this fact, Arkansans absolutely consider themselves Southerners and the State was a member of the Confederacy in the Second War of Independence from 1861-1865. :D
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Interesting thread...and I think Tim nailed it when he said it was simply a matter of timing. Southerners made up a small percentage of Major League baseball in 1909-11 and as such made up a small percentage of the Major Leaguers shown on T206 cards. To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all. If that were so then why not snub the greatest Southern born superstar of them all in Cobb?? I think it's even more laughable to state that they would snub Alexander because of his drinking and epilepsy. How the ATC would even know about his epilepsy when it was never written about back then I don't know...and his drinking was certainly never a big problem in his younger days and probably overblown in the latter part of his career....There are some legendary drunks in the T206 set...highly doubtful the execs or employees of the ATC were teetotalers.
I think that the simple explanation is almost always the correct one when dealing with speculation. |
Dan B......
Please be more specific regarding your......
"To think that an American tobacco company interested in selling lots of cigarettes would snub a southern born superstar because of Southern prejudice just doesn't make sense at all." Are you referring to Cobb or Jackson ? TED Z |
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Dan
Do you know how many of the near 400 different players in the T206 set are from the so-called deep South ?
There are a mere 16, that represents only 4 %. And, the questions I have regarding Cobb are limited to the HINDU backs which there are NONE ! Look, I'm not making this up....the predjudice in that era towards ballplayers from the deep South is well documented. TED Z |
What is the total percentage of major leaguers from the Deep South in 1909-11? I'll bet it's close to 4%.
Southern born players even with major league talent were more likely to stay in the South and play in Southern leagues...the same can be said for West Coast players staying in the PCL and NWL...sure there were some who went for the bigger money of the Major Leagues, but people were more inclined to stay close to home in the early 20th century. I'll ask again since this is your theory...what evidence do you have that the ATC had a Southern prejudice? |
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Given the two additional players that we learned were also born in Georgia the total number of T206 players from that state are 7. Using Ted's statistical analysis to determine bias the ATC hated New Jersey who also had 7 players in the T206 set. Neighboring Pennsylvania and New York had over 100 between them!! :eek: Why the bias against New Jersey? "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." |
I like your theory Ted. No doubt their were prejudices that existed both ways. there were just as many Southerners who distrusted Northerners and its possible that Jackson didn't want to sign another contract with any more of those damn Yankees.
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You guys have misconstrued and twisted the entire gist of this thread. I know that you wont go back and
start reading it from post #1. Therefore, I'll reprise the two salient features of this thread...... (1) My original contention is......I find it quite mystifying that Joe Jax was not portrayed in any major T or E sets during his glory years (1911-1920). American Lithograph (ALC) had his image in their 1910 OLD MILL set. American Caramel (ACC) depicted him in their 1908 E90 set. Both these major BB card producers never again included him in their subsequent sets. NOTE..the 1915 E106 and the 1916 T216 issues (Kotton, MINO & Virginia Extra) are all derived from the E90 set images; therefore, it begs the question....WHY ISN"T JOE JAX IN THESE SETS ? It is as basic as that. I did not accuse ATC of being predjudiced towards ballplayers from the "deep South". However, it was quite strange that very few are in the T206 set. That leads us to the next mystery...... (2) The four T206 Ty Cobb cards are represented by most of their respective series tobacco advertisements. But, none of them exist with the HINDU backs. Furthermore, the T205 Ty Cobb was printed with 6 tobacco backs, but not the HINDU back. Perhaps, these facts don't excite your curiosity....but, they certainly do mine. Therefore, I suggested that the Rochester, NY factory (#649) that produced the HINDU brand for whatever reason did NOT want Cobb inserted in their cigar- ette packs. This is what it is. And, I simply put all this out there to encourage some meaningful discussion on these 2 topics. Instead, I've had to put up with the usual "gotcha" game from a bunch of uninformed naysayers. Look, the predjudice towards rookie players from the "boonies" of South Carolina (Joe Jax) or Georgia (Cobb) by the team owners, their teammates, and the sports media of that era (circa 1900-1919) is well documented. For example, take Connie Mack, he only scouted Colleges for his recruits, as he didn't think the coaching in the Minor Leagues was as good as the College coaching. Hey look guys, it wasn't just the South that was still fighting the Civil War.....it was also many in the North that were still very bitter over the War and Southerners. Sorry, on this lengthy reprise, but I'm at the point where I feel that it's futile to try and present some thought- provoking topics on this forum....anymore. TED Z |
ATC had the rights and images to print hundreds if not thousands of players BUT and this is a HUGE but that I can't seem to get you to agree with....
They did not create the 6 images needed to print the Jax image in lithograph form. They only did this for the T206 set, and reused those same images for later sets without creating any new images. |
Tim, you uninformed naysayer, stop playing gotcha. :):)
Seriously, I thought this was a good discussion and some interesting points were raised, I am not sure why Ted is upset. EDIT And it still seems to me relevant to ask why Alex is not in any of these sets either, if the hypothesis is that Jax was snubbed due to anti Southern bias. The "not in T206" theory seems a more unifying explanation, although I am the first to admit i am uninformed. |
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One thing I hope is clear is that I'm not angry or upset with anyone. I just hope together we can uncover more of the mysteries through good research and discussion and in the end my point of view doesn't have to win out for us to do that. |
Just found it! Item 43b under Article 29, (section relating to Conduct) of the Rules and Regulations which governs Net 54, does state that all users must agree with any thought put forward by Ted even if the idea is considered reaching. Had I not seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed it.
Yeah I thought Tim, as well as you Peter, made some valid points and raised valid questions. That is the purpose of the board right--to share ideas and thoughts. Or are we all supposed to be of one mind? |
Ted, I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the Cobb/Hindu question you've presented. If I understand correctly, your theory leans toward Factory 649 (producers of Hindu brand) being prejudiced against Cobb for being from the South, correct? If this is what you are suggesting, it makes no sense to me.
Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards Vol.3-Lew Lipset (I know I quote out of this book alot, because I read it alot and it is my favorite book): "In August of 1909, a New Orleans daily ran an ad for "Hindu Cigarettes".The ad showed a drawing of a package of Hindu cigarettes with the top of two cards visible in the top of the package.Both cards,Dooin and Waddell,were major leaguers from the 150 series.The observation here was that it tied Hindu closely to the 150 series. Less than a month later,the same New Orleans newspaper ran another ad for "Hindu".This time the ad said there were "2 Pictures of Southern League Players in Every Box".The ad showed illustrations of Southern Leaguers,Carey and Bernhard,and if these cards were ready in September of 1909 it certainly removes 1910 as the date for the 350 series.It's possible that only the Southern Series was available at this time,and only with the difficult Hindu Brand." So,to me,it sounds like Hindu advertised in a New Orleans paper promoting players that were from the South........why would they be prejudiced towards Cobb? I don't get it. Please feel free to straighten me out on this,if I'm not following correctly. Thanks,Clayton |
now that....
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Clayton
Regarding the Cobb/HINDU mystery in both the T206 and T205 issues, I don't know if the people at the Rochester, NY plant were prejudiced towards Ty Cobb for being from the South. But, what is factual is....as popular a figure as Cobb was in the 1909-1911 era.....he is not found with HINDU advertising backs in either of these two popular BB card sets. So, I'm asking you....don't you find that very puzzling ? Especially, since Cobb was printed advertising every tobacco brand in the ATC system in that era. Particularly, the Red Cobb, which is found with 22 different backs. Including LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI (they are Factory #30, New York City). But, it's no mystery, the people up in upstate New York did not want Cobb inserted in their cigarette packs. If you are at all interested in checking out the HINDU factory, here is the link to my thread about it...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...imball+factory Now, regarding your comments about the HINDU ads. in the Fall of 1909....here's another one with the cards of Jordan, Breitenstein, and Hickman. Now, this comment of yours is incorrect........"So,to me,it sounds like Hindu advertised in a New Orleans paper promoting players that were from the South" ATC was promoting their cigarettes in the South with these premiums that included ballplayers that PLAYED on Southern teams. The majority of the 48 subjects in the SL series were, actually from Northern and Midwest cities. And, to clarify your......"and if these cards were ready in September of 1909 it certainly removes 1910 as the date for the 350 series.It's possible that only the Southern Series was available at this time,and only with the difficult Hindu Brand." Of the 48 cards in the SL series, 34 of them were available in the Fall of 1909. Subsequently, in the Spring of 1910, the other 14 SL cards were printed with OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs. Scot Reader refers to this latter group of 14 SL's as the "350-only" Southern Leaguers. <img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/advhindusouthlgers.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> I hope this answers or clarifies some of the questions you asked. If not we'll try once more. TED Z |
Ted-
Thanks for explaining this, I do understand now. I was combining players that were from the South with players who played on Southern teams, and now I am clear on what was confusing me.Thank you for straightening me out on that, I do appreciate it. I also really enjoyed going back through that thread with the link to the Kimball Factory #649.......what a wonderful history lesson!!! Thanks again, Clayton |
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The ad also features the rare Breitenstein reverse negative. :D http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UrSHvogCrmM/TA...layer%20Ad.jpg |
Tim
Check out our HINDU ads....I'd say that mine has the mysterious reverse pix of Breitenstein.
<img src="http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/tz1234zaz/abreitenhindu.jpg" alt="[linked image]"> TED Z |
Both ads show his card in the pack with the image reversed. The ad I posted also shows his card with the proper orientation.
Another interesting artistic decision. |
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