Joann,

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I don't know you personally, but I was responding to what you had written.

Is Marshall asking you "when the last time you were spanked" offensive? Of course it is, I'm not insensitive to that. It's out of line and not necessary on a baseball chat board, and it's none of his business.

Is it, to me, as offensive as calling someone a nigger? Not even remotely close...Maybe we are different people, but to me racial slurs just cut a little deeper.

I'll leave you with an example. A few years ago I went out with a group of friends to a small, local bar. One of my friends is African American. When we passed one of the patrons in the bar, he said to my friend, "Hey you, get to the back of the bus!" That damn near started a bar brawl. I don't think it would have evoked the same response if my friend had passed and he said "When's the last time you got spanked".

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree, but again I don't think you have a clue what being judged solely by your skin color is like. Correct me if I'm wrong.

MikePugeda

I know no one means to be offensive on this issue, but perhaps you all could edit your posts to remove the n-word? I don't even like to see it in print, even when a point is trying to be made.

Then honestly, I don't think you have a clue what it's like to have some stranger makes jokes about you needing a big cucumber, or something like that, on a board like this. This was a place where I liked people and liked to hang out. This guy said that in front of all of these people - people that are my friends in some cases. Try that on for size sometime.

If nothing else, this has been eye-opening. I think some people honestly don't know what it feels like. That's the only conclusion I can make from all this.

And Jeff, I'll consider editing. But not yet. That's the only thing I've done that seems to have made people even come close to what it feels like inside when Marshall cuts loose with some of his sexual comments and people defend him as an ok guy.

J

Jeff,

That was exactly my point. If you find it offensive to even see the word, imagine being called that.

last time spanked? = offensive
N****R = offensive

Equally offensive (to me) = not even remotely close

Mike

Joann,

Re-read my post, I'm not defending Marshall. I agreed that what he said was offensive, inappropriate, and unnecessary.

I questioned your analogy and the appropriateness of it.

I'm finished with this thread, you all can agree or disagree with anything I've said.

MikePugeda

Being one of the more liberal, PC, bleeding hearts here, it did sting to read Joann's comments.

That said, I think Joann wrote them the way she did to make a point. And I think the point is coming through loud and clear, at least to me.

When Swine Flu made his series of comments toward Joann, I found them to be the most offensive things I'd ever read on this board. The comments were not made to illustrate a point or make a joke. They were made to be insulting and hurtful, to separate Joann from the rest of the group due to her gender, and to embarrass her.

The fact that people are voicing their displeasure about Joann's comments without having voiced similar displeasure at Swine Flu's comments is surprising to me.

I know Leon's job is difficult, and it's tough to play policeman all the time, but the rules of this board as they relate to personal attacks are written in black and white, and in Joann's case, those rules were not enforced. Were the comments written about someone's ethnicity or religion, I believe they would have been.

Joann is my friend, and it absolutely enraged me to see those comments.

-Al

not sure who is defending marshal as a good guy????

joann-i hope you feel better, as i (and probably every other jew or african-american on this board) have been totally offended by your comment.

didn't you parents teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?

I don't think any of us (guys) are in a position to judge how much Joann is, or should be, offended by Marshall's comments.

If she says she is offended that deeply, I think we should take her word for it.

Personally, I like lawyer jokes, but if Jeff told me he was offended, I'd believe him.


(Edited to add - And jokes about the newspaper industry just slay me!)

sheeeeesh. i'm in the pork business. can we call him H1N1?

Marshall's comments to Joann were inappropriate and I understand being her insulted by them. I am also sure she was trying to make a point with the above but YIKES. I think the point could have been made with far more tact.

Mike, until you are in Joann's shoes I don't think you should be telling her that she should feel less offended.

sure we are, if we are jewish or african-american.

Sorry, Andy, you're right. :)

And to be clear about my last post: I do not in any way mean for it to come off as a criticism of Leon or his moderating. My intent is to try and illustrate my belief that a roomful of men will have a really difficult time understanding the hurt caused by H1N1's comments toward one of the only women who post on this board.

I would have never come back here.

-Al

Well, I think now we all know how hurt Joann was by Marshall's comments....the difference in her comments and Marshall's is that she was using an analogy to express how she felt by his comments...and well, when Marshall made his comments he meant them.

No, you can't. You can judge how offended you would be to the comments made by Joann, not by the comments made by Marshall. Except that Joann didn't make derogatory comments. She used them as a comparison to how Marshall's comments about her felt.

You have said, a couple of times that, to you, there was no comparison between the two, but unless you are female you aren't seeing that side of the comparison.

Now... If you are a female, jewish, african-american, then you've got me.




Edited to add - Dan types faster than I do.

that wasn't me.

and you're correct jim. i cannot judge how joann feels.....i did not mean to imply that.

i can judge how joann made me feel.

joann was using racial and ethnic slurs just as a comparison, so that's ok?

c'mon jim. you're smarter than that.

Hypocrisy???
 

"Mike, until you are in Joann's shoes I don't think you should be telling her that she should feel less offended."---Dan


Well then Dan, by the same token, Joann shouldn't compare her plight to what she stated above.

"You have said, a couple of times that, to you, there was no comparison between the two, but unless you are female you aren't seeing that side of the comparison."---JimVB

That was me JimVB who made those statements and I stand by them and in the same token, until Joann has a race change she isn't 'seeing that side of the comparison'.



Again, I don't doubt that Marshall's words have caused Joann pain that we might not know or comprehend, but my problem is with the statements she made. Joann, I'm sorry if you've been hurt by the comments made to you, but your analogies were inappropriate, even if only used for analogies.

Now I'm really finished.

Mike

Andy, of course you're right.

And Joann, I suspect my eyes will somehow continue to work whether or not you edit your post (and I had missed your anti-semitic comments, sorry). Whether or not I'll have the same respect for you is another story. There are powerful and appropriate ways to make an argument and then there are ridiculous ways.

Don't count on it.

I attributed Mike's thoughts to you. Sorry.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if Barfman had been banned for his disgusting remarks in the first place.

In the meantime has Marshall even posted today?

On second thought, I'd really rather not get involved.

Jeff, the fact that you and others cringe in disgust when seeing the N word in JoAnn's post is precisely her point. Barfman's drivel was equally offensive to a woman, but most males are culturally conditioned to that sort of talk so that our threshold is much higher.

I am guessing that after an appropriate interval JoAnn will edit it out....

Joann did not call anyone, of any color or ethnicity, any name! She merely typed the words. She said she had been as insulted as if someone had used those other examples. And some have been deeply offended by this. Understood.

Now, imagine that someone had typed those words and actually directed them at you.


That's what Marshall did, to her.

Peter, good thing I've got Joann to tell me how to feel. I don't know how I survived this long without her life lessons.

Look, I also was surprised by Joann's vitriolic response, and my first reaction was she crossed a line. But I also know how deeply hurt she was by Marshall's comments to her, and I think all the fun she had posting on this board went south after he humiliated her like that. It takes a lot of anger to say what she said and I know it came from deep in her gut. And frankly, there are more than a few people here who are pretty angry at Marshall.

And if I had to guess his response, he will say he doesn't care what we think and we're all just a boring group of people. We're not cool enough to understand his rapier wit. Frankly, I think he should again leave the board and this time for good.

Too early. Tha's not how he rolls. He'll catch up in the afternoon and be rarin' to fight around midnight. :D

That makes two of us wondering the same thing. :)

I was going to go back and read this thread so I can figure out what's going on but something tells me it would be a waste of time. So if someone could tell me who received demerits and who did not, I'll just move along to the next thread. That's all I really need to know.

Don't bother, Cat. Here is a summary:

- Marshall Barkman made sexual comments a few months ago that Joanne found offensive.

- Joanne used racial slurs and anti-semitic remarks, not directed at a particular person, but rather to illustrate her point about how offensive Marshalls comments were.

- Other forum members found Joanne's use of racial slurs and anti-semitic remarks offensive.

- Joanne is considering deleting the racial slur and anti-semitic remarks, but for now she will leave them up.

- None of us know what it feels like to be a woman, Jewish or African-American

- Marshall Barkman has not posted today.

- Leon has not handed out any demerits.

That's what stood out to me and what I remember. Anyone else can feel free to fill in the blanks.

The "N" in my avatar stands for "Newark."

-Al

And N is for Newark.

Happy Birthday, Al!

Damn!

Marshall why is your website no longer up?

Some might find that more offensive than the other N word. :D

What???? No more MB3rocks.com??????

The Candy-Man can, (well, 2 out of 3). L'Shana Tova everybody!

[IMG]<a href="http://img35.imageshack.us/i/sammydavisjr.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/147/sammydavisjr.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a><br /><br /><a href="http://img604.imageshack.us/content.php?page=blogpost&files=img35/147/sammydavisjr.jpg" title="QuickPost"><img src="http://imageshack.us/img/butansn.png" alt="QuickPost" border="0"></a> Quickpost this image to Myspace, Digg, Facebook, and others![/IMG]

For the record, Blazing Saddles is one of my favorite movies. I'll wait for the ruling to see if this is a demeritable offense.

from all his OT posts marshall know as much about vintage cards as he does rock music or golf...i vote for joann to stay and "reginald" to go

i also found some anagrams that marshall can use to re-register:

A Lamb Shrank Marl
Alarms Blank Harm
Marksman Bra Hall
Bash Nark Mall Arm
Balk Rash Marl Man

...lmk if you need more reginald...oh wait i have you on ignored :rolleyes:

Joanne made an analogy to help illustrate, to those who did not get it, how offensive Marshall's comments were. Seems like it worked.

If you find her analogy offensive and yet did not publicly come to her defense in the past when Marshall made his slurs, then perhaps that analogy was called for.

Sometimes the truth hurts for a while.
JimB

If we don't fight bigotry and oppression when it affects others, what ground do we stand on to ask for help when the bigotry and oppression is directed our way? Those in power (in the oppressing group) have all the more responsibility to stand up against it.
JimB

Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRtUv97YFco

Boy I really don't want to chime in on this thread, but like Ron White, I have the right to remain silent, I just don't have the ability.

Two words in the English language that I hate with a passion.

The C word describing a female and N word. Neither belong no matter what point is being made. No exeptions allowed.

<a href="http://songsforteaching.com/s/sburton/kumbaya.mp3">Please join hands</a>

Rob, thanks for that. It's all clear to me now, I feel much better. I just needed to be led to the truth. Good thing we've got good (note: not 'great') people like you on the board to lead us in song, as we all hold hands in peace and harmony.

Please pass the graham crackers, Jeff, I'm ready for another s'more.

Just for the record....

I hate the word "tousled" and support Joann.

Joshua

"Those in power"? Do you mean Leon?

No, I meant anybody in the priveledged group when there is a power differential. When the bigotry is against blacks in America, whites are generally the priveledged/powerful/majority group. When the bigotry is aimed against women (especially when there are 2,999 male members of a group and one female member), it is all men in the group that I believe have a responsibility to stand up against bigotry for justice.
JimB

Jim,

I'll be honest; I don't remember the exact words Marshall Barkman directed at Joanne. Do you have a link to Marshall's comments to Joanne?

So the only information in that regard is what Joanne posted today, and as soon as I read Joanne's account, I mentioned it was offensive. I believe each and every poster that commented also said it was offensive. I also recall reading then as well as today a number of people calling for Leon to ban Marshall. That said, Joanne's racial slurs and anti-semitic remarks were also despicable, no matter what they were used for. How can anyone dispute this?

Wes

if i understand what jim is saying, i agree.

when marshall made this remark to joann, more should have stood up for her.

agreed. totally.....as we would stand up for any injustice.

however, in this specific case, i think many members considered the source of joann's attack and let it go....to a point. i think joann's demeanor may have contributed to that. by demeanor, i mean that in a positive way.....what i said earlier..."the voice of reason".

that said, should we have pounced on marshall more. yes, and if i didn't then jim is right....shame on me.

We did stand up for Joann. Most voiced the opinion that it was offensive and this board was not the place for it. Sorry, but two wrongs never make a right. Every new immigrant group that came to this country was oppressed in one way or another, (some much worse than others). I don't see the relationship to using offensive terms and standing up for an oppressed people rights? The voice of reason is to not use those terms ever. That's the true voice of reason. BTW, I'm Irish and Italian and have heard or been called every name related to those nationalities and still would not like to see them spewed on this board.

Here is a nice example of "noize" from the past, some good baseball card talk.

"Well let's see i fu*&^cked countless models,raised hell whereever i went, and basically tore up South Beach for 4 years. I signed a independent record deal which allowed to me live in a 2.5 million dollar penthouse and have maids walk around naked while a puffed away on the finest of .....while playing a wonderful Fender strat at insane decibels"

joe,
if you read back a few pages, you paraphrased what i said. i'm with you.

i'm just trying to explain my perception of jim's point.

the guy's an idiot. i don't think anyone disputes that. why he isn't banned is beyond me.

doesn't make what joann said right by any means (where is that dead horse smiley when i need it!)

Not sure what that has to do with baseball cards but sounds like a fun !

If getting me to stay up past my bedtime is what Marshall wanted, then kudos to him.

Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Marshall doesn't bite back then I'm going to bed. Good luck ya'll.

For the record...

Josh and Wesley win for best posts of this thread.
Leon is right in letting it run its course.
Joanne rocks for letting it all out...point made...and taken.

Now I am guilty of the one thing that I wish everyone else had done...

DONT POST ANY REPLIES TO MB3'S ATTENTION GRABBING POST AND IT WILL GO AWAY!


But, I am guilty just the same because I read it...and have to admit...I enjoyed every bit.

Please keep it down...I'm trying to go to sleep...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

hold on a sec
 

People, THINK about the two speech-acts for a minute. Joann did NOT make "racial slurs and anti-semitic remarks." She used the offensive terms as illustrations to try to get across how she felt when that jerkweed Marshall unleashed a barrage of misogynistic remarks aimed at her personally. People need to grasp the vast difference between these two types of usage. To equate them, I'm sorry to have to say, is just lamebrained.

Barak Obama wants to take my hard earned money and give it to someone else who he deems more worthy.

We are all being discriminated against for being who we are.

There should be no off topic threads allowed on this board any longer. A larger group should be created to police and ban anyone who starts any kind of tomfoolery that is not a positive contribution.

I hope that Joann doesn't leave because of the insensitivity of the male populous here.

this is a quote from joann's post:
"Or harping on the Jews about their big noses and being greedy (but tink-tink, Cheers!, let's have a toast, right Alan?) "

her words, not mine. and they don't illustrate anything. it's nowhere near the context that she used the n word, which was deplorable.

I read this today while I was at work and started crying. Literally. I had to shut my office door. And believe me, that is not something that happens often - it takes a lot to get me there. But Barry got it right square - this is exactly what it felt like. His entire post was dead on.


I am going to edit my last post now. Why? To distinguish myself from Marshall. I think it should be clear that I intentionally used inflammatory words to make a point to him, not because I meant them literally (and I very much appreciate the posts plus emails and PM's I received from those of you that got that). But since many were offended, whether I meant it or not, I'm going to edit it. Not bitch about how lame you all are for not getting my drift, not go on about how awesome and courageous I am to be me being me, but change it. Because the last damn thing I want in this world is to be even remotely like Marshall.

We'll see what happens when he posts again. I'm guessing I already know.

And thanks to you guys that did stand up, and Barry for putting great simple words to it.

And on another note - HAPPY 40TH BIRTHDAY TO AL C!! Sorry Al, but I only have an hour left in this day and it was not going to get by me without birthday wishes for your 40th. :-) My Facebook is all messed up and won't let me post comments anywhere, so here it is! Be sure to have a few good beers - even Stroh's works ok - and consider 40 years well lived! :-)

And T - yes, I completely understand why you would so clearly remember the whole bar exam drill after 20+ years. The whole process - both the prep and the exam - is a unique experience. Yeesh. I don't think I will ever forget it.

J

If you're going to go to the trouble of quoting Joann, you should at the very least, capture her entire thought, not just an excerpt.

She started that paragraph by saying: "Throwing the sexual stuff at me is no different than... " She then added the illustrations using Black and Jewish references.

SHE WAS CLEARLY MAKING A COMPARISON! She was showing how hateful the comments he made to her were.

How does anyone NOT see that?

And the throw away line to Alan was because he had just finished telling us what a good guy Marshall was.

We've already got double-secret probation, what more do you want? A large civilian militia? :)

And Andy, you're right: Joann had a point to made but it was butchered so badly with her language as to make it more offensive than the slight to which she responded. Everyone got her point -- we didn't need the Rosetta Stone to figure it out. I just wish she could see that there was a more appropriate way to make the point without gratuitously offending so many people.

and then....
 

and then we can have the largest group that can police the larger group, who will police the 4 moderators, who will police the members. :eek:

I will police that group.

At least no one has recommended we shoot anyone for posting OTs yet.

Lmfao....
 

Well let's see first let me say i have entered the ring and i'll be weighing in at 155 lbs this evening so here comes my post.

Damn I was 7 mins off from the blow up.

Rawn

Past events that should have stayed in the past!
 

Well here we go Marshalls back :eek: Buckle up could be a bumpy ride for those with weak stomachs;););)

I have a flight in 6 hours, please hurry.

Rawn

Past.............................................. ..................
 

Thanks Marshall for that entertaining evening:( Im tired now ,I guess I will go back to the Memorabilia side at least we have alot of pictures there.:D:D:D Isnt this fun!! Rawn dont forget the in flight movie!;);)

Past ______________________________________
 

Matt we have moved to The Cards That Go Together Post come join us! Its where the :cool::cool: people hang:D

bring the noise! I'm bored and offended.

Bring the Noise......
 

I guess after reading all of the posts i was a little suprised at a few things. I will address alot of things but let's start here. A few days ago Leon made a post in regards to cleaning up the board and trying to make this a better place. He set forth some new rules and guidelines for everyone to follow and how demerits will be handled out for offenders. Now i get a few private messages and e-mails regarding a card i am going to auction and folks are still steaming at how i treated Nancy Pelosi Jr.

Well i tried to post on the main thread basically saying i do not hate anyone or hold any grudges so hopefully folks do not think that and let's just move on because yesterday is gone.........

Also let me state that Barry Goat is such a wussbag and was so offended by me calling him Barry Goat that he had Leon e-mail me and ask to stop it because such a grand baseball card dealer and basically king of a guy which by the way is one notch above great guy could never be called Barry Bahhhh.....Bahhhhh.....Goat. Well i told Leon i would stop and i did until i just read about 50 posts and here is what i saw.

Joann using the word N*^%r which i have no comment for because anyone trying to become a attorney should never for any reason use that word ever in any situation, her excuse for using it is so lame that no intelligent person would ever buy it and i do apologize to all the african american brothers on the board that have had to read her spew.

Also note i have been called prick,Barfman,dick,asshole,swine flu,idiot,stupid and countless other names yet i have not complained to Leon nor will i ever because i do not suck my thumb and cry myself to sleep over Net54.

What is so comical about this situation is that the "click" try as it might is just that a "click", a group of about 7 to 10 people who act so self righteous and have such deep moral and spiritual integrity yet they post words like N%&*r? I mean i almost fell off my chair when i read that and now i will respond to Jane Fonda's 1 fan.

Joann....one thing you and your fan club fail to realize is that you came on my post like some kind of tomboy hanging with the fellas and made insulting remarks towards me and i fired back. Well you got mad and insulted me more so i asked jeez what is with you? When was the last time you were spanked? Now i see you have come on this thread and made it seem like that statement has altered your life forever and that you are emotionally scarred from it.

MB3 sits back raises a eyebrow..........are you for real? Are you actually going to come on a public message board among adults and make anyone believe you are deeply hurt? I cannot tell you how truly sorry i feel for you if something that minor can offend and scar you. Please do me a favor and do not become a attorney because you will be chewed up and spit out like a bad piece of steak.

Now i will say a few things about Leon. Man bro i have to say you are ballsy. I just love the fact that you handed out no demerits and allowed the thread to run. I have always liked the way you have run the ship and i say carry on Captain i am enjoying the cruise but please full throttle.

In regards to certain questions i'll try to answer the "click" now.

All of the things i talked about months ago are true. I did not embelish or make anything up. I basically roll anywhere i go and yes i do whatever i want whenever i want to do it.

In regards to Peter Spade. Bro i cannot tell if that is your face or did your neck throw up. You remind me of some weasel corporate attorney on board Judge Smails boat getting ready for his yacht cristening. Uhhhhh......oh Margie doll please pass the grey poupon.......thanks my love.....have you seen my new jpeg on WilmerHale's website i mean am i just not the coolest?

Did Net54 just jump the shark?

I may be the only one laughing right now, but this guy fuk'n hilarious! I'm serious.

David, no way -- I'm actually laughing out loud at these lines.

Edited to add: Dan, you insensitive bastard.

i just woke my wife up laughing so hard. 11:49pm Chicago

Edited to say that I just got kicked out of the bed for the night, cause I am still laughing.