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What should bother everyone is what this effect is having on everyones collection monetarily. For example, I find a 61 Jim Gentile raw, a very low pop and grade it. It comes back an "8." I sell my legitimate card on Ebay for "X." I check VCP and see that several cards have sold prior to this by someone who I suspect is altering cards. My card sells for a quite a few dollars less because "seller X" has sold 3 other Gentiles in an "8". Basically that guy just cost me good money. How much has your collection suffered cash wise because of this? Im bettin quite abit.......
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One noteworthy update....
I guess this shouldn't come as a surprise, but I've been banned from the Collectors Universe Boards after being a member for 8 years plus 2 years prior when it was the PSA Board.
I have no regrets regarding the way I've handled this. I believed from the start of this investigation that I should distance myself from anyone or organization that would compromise the integrity of the findings or try to suppress the truth and I'll just leave it at that. I do find it curious that Joe Orlando would do such a thing when he's in such a vulnerable position as he is right now. This isn't about a vendetta against PSA - I still own about 600 PSA graded cards. It's about stopping someone from systematically defauding the collecting community and hopefully the victims getting back what they lost. There's actually one real good development in the making. It should become self-evident in the next several days. |
Dan, it's disappointing that the hair-trigger response from PSA is not to try to get to the bottom of a horrible situation of which they were probably an unwitting party but instead to shoot the messenger. Such a typical, paranoid response from Joe Orlando. I'm disappointed as I really thought this presented him a chance to do some good and show the collecting community that he cares about the quality of his product. Oh well, no wonder he's such a great guy.
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Dan -- under the circumstances banishment would seem to be a badge of honor. Have you heard from Susor?
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It's certainly understandable for them to circle the wagons but kicking one guy off their boards will not make the problem go away nor prevent others from learning about it. Why not take the high road by announcing steps to prevent this sort of thing from happening again?
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Because they already have graded millions of cards, and an admission would created unmanageable fear, uncertainty and doubt. |
Sounds like we need a special prosecutor on this one. Or perhaps a Slab Czar.
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I think he would make an outstanding special prosecutor. |
I apologize if this had link had already been posted.. more on Scott Susor from several years ago including comments of him "scouring the net for raw cards.
http://forums.collectors.com/message...70&STARTPAGE=8 Also its noticeable that PSA seems to use Scott Susor in their articles at times. Not really proof of anything but I don't seem to have PSA calling me up for quotes for articles. http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...tml?artid=5122 http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...tml?artid=5582 |
My communication with eBay
After filing a complaint with eBay on Friday, I just received this response back:
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to item number 310156210162 (1961 TOPPS #494 TOM CHENEY Pirates PSA 8 NM-MT) that you purchased from scottsusor. As you stated, the seller sold you a card which was altered and you have already filed criminal charges with IC3 against him. Because of the seller's activity, you would like us this seller be no longer allowed to sell on the site. I know it's taken us a while to get back to you and I'm sorry about the wait. Rest assured that we thoroughly reviewed your report about the seller and will take appropriate action. We may take a range of steps that include giving a warning, canceling a listing, restricting or suspending an account, or removing PowerSeller status. We protect the privacy of our members, so we can't share the results of our investigation with you. We appreciate you taking the time to file a report and help make eBay a safe place to buy and sell. At this time, to help you decide what would work best for you, I recommend the following options (details below): -- Contact us by phone -- As you're a valued member of eBay, we would like to help you resolve your concern the soonest time possible. Kindly call us at the number provided below and we'll be glad to assist you. eBay Customer Hotline Number for "Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described" disputes : 1-866-643-3720 So I did call eBay and talked to a very helpful person named Joe. It appears that is will only be a matter of time before these two two eBay accounts are shutdown. Also, thanks Jeff, Peter, et al, for all of your supporting thoughts. |
An attempt to suppress or silence those who point out flaws in PSA's system is the typical response from the company. PSA has been permitted to cover up stuff like this rather than fix it.
Corruption and deception exist at all levels in this hobby. |
Speaking of old threads...
......here's a dandy.
http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=575079 Need I say this who this dealer was? |
So when are you getting sued by Susor? I'm guessing sometime around the 4th of Never.
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....or when hell freezes over
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At this point I'd love to have him file suit against me and take that stand under oath claiming he's been an innocent victim and then get cross examined by a renowned attorney like you. That would be pay-per-view kind of stuff. Heck, I'd even pickup the filing fees and even pay for a limousine to take him to the courthouse. |
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Allow me to clarify...
Actually I was referring to Susor regarding the limo. Nothing against Jeff, but that's a stiff fare from New York to Houston.
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True. Also, the luxuriousness of a limo might lose its appeal during hour 34 of the trip.
This has been a fascinating read, Dan. I admire your dedication and perseverance on this matter. Keep up the good fight. |
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Like the man said....contact Joe O. and show him the evidence! :)
from the CU boards way back when... scottsusor Posts: 1452 Joined: Dec 2003 Wednesday April 21, 2004 5:30 PM Since it appears that an awful lot of submissions (including mine) are having similar problems with undergrading of vintage (1950's and 1960's cards), I sent off an email to Joe Orlando yesterday, expressing my concern about what looks like either toughened standards or graders getting lazy. As he always does, Joe responded quickly and attentively. He restated what he said to me in Chicago -- that PSA has not consciously toughened any standards of grading in recent months. Unfortunately, that leaves open the other possibility -- that the graders are taking the easy (or speedy) way out by slapping a too-low grade on most cards then moving on to the next card. It may not be laziness -- it may be pressure to get through way too many cards in way too little time. Anyway, Joe told me to send in some of the undergraded cards directly to him for review. I will be doing that shortly. I would advise anybody else that's getting hammered on grades to contact Joe and express your disappointment with what's been going on recently. The only way things like this will get worked out is for as many submitters as are affected to voice their perspective to Joe Orlando and then show him the evidence. He is very aware that undergrading hurts everybody -- PSA with reduced submissions, dealers who can't make a profit on their graded cards, and collectors looking to buy PSA cards that should be 8's and 9's. But just grousing about it here on the board does little good. You have to contact Joe and then show him the evidence. Joe Orlando's email address is: JOrlando@collectors.com Scott |
Perhaps after that SS took matters into his own hands?
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Yes Peter...that is exactly what happened.
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Daniel- the work you and your team has done is fantastic. I was hoping you could post a reply as to where you see this going - Scott Susor needs to be dealt with - black listed and prosecuted - do you see this happening? Is he going to be allowed to continue his practice?
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pwilk17,
We are still pursuing civil action and criminal charges. I've asked eBay to ban him and the person I spoke to said that it would have to be reviewed by a department within eBay shortly. Sadly, this guy, eBay ID "scottsusor" is still buying raw cards on eBay by the droves. Raw card sellers need to block him. It's obvious to me he has no intentions of quitting what he has been doing even though he's been exposed. That tells me he's just going to find people to submit to PSA for him and use others to sell on eBay for him. It's sickening. |
Dan, despite your commendable work, I don't think PSA is likely to solve the problem nor do I think a boycott is likely to happen. Ultimately, if this (and other similar situations) is going to change, it is going to take law enforcement or private litigation.
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stay tuned
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Years ago there was a guy who would restore cards and place a small dot on the back to note the restoration. I haven't seen one of those dots in 15-20 years....It was just a matter of time before someone started getting their stuff done without the "dot" for a little extra cash.
The knowledge that is on this website in unbelievable. From the detailed work with this topic, to 19th century obscure question....if people dont know the answer here, the answer isn't known anywhere. |
The man you are referring to is Tom Faith
Regards
Rich |
Nice going Dan. http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/2364/scottsusor.jpg
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I suspect Mr. Scissors will find an alternative ID.
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And I am sure he will be exposed again. Just a matter of time. Sure that Dan has plenty on him and will find listings under the new ID. Then again I could see ebay lifting the suspension after 30 days. They seem to think that site violators get reformed after 30 days have lapsed.
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Susor made the NY Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/ September 9, 2009 8:21 PM By Michael O'Keeffe Memorabilia world's opinion swayed on fraud It wasn't that long ago that some sports memorabilia collectors would pull a Linda Blair and spew pea soup whenever the Daily News published a story that pointed out that their hobby was fraught with fraud. Some collectors, it seemed, preferred to bury their heads in the sand when confronted with evidence that their hobby had problems. When our book about hobby fraud, "The Card," was published a few years ago, some of the guys at the card collector forum Net54Baseball.com acted like they were going through an exorcism. "The book portrays the whole hobby in a bad light," Net54Baseball moderator Leon Luckey grumbled. "The book sheds no new light on anything, is sensationalism at its worst, and is a piece of crap in my opinion." "How sad that such a piece of rubbish gets published," a collector named Dan Markel added. Maybe the fact that federal agents investigating allegations of shill bidding and other hobby fraud questioned industry executives and passed out subpoenas at the last two national sports memorabilia conventions. But a lot of Net54Baseball.com regulars - including Luckey and Markel - have become converts. Both now recognize that their hobby has significant problems "A few years ago, fraud was a taboo subject," said Kevin Saucier, a collector who runs AlteredCards.com, a Web site to help fans protect themselves from the hustlers. "People just didn't talk about it. Now its come to the forefront of the hobby." Markel, a collector who lives in Texas, is doing more than complaining about the hobby's crooks and con men. He led a group of collectors who conducted a lengthy investigation that concluded that a prominent eBay dealer was buying low-priced, low-grade cards, trimming them to enhance their appearance, and then submitting the doctored cards to PSA. When the cards came back with higher grades, the dealer, another Texan named Scott Susor, would sell the cards on eBay at premium prices. Luckey recently posted the results of the investigation - called "The Markel Report" - on Net54Baseball.com. Susor didn't return calls for comment, but his Houston-based attorney Bennett Fisher said Susor is an honest dealer who has never knowingly sold an altered card. "If they were trimmed, they were trimmed when Scott got them," Fisher said. Susor considered filing a defamation lawsuit against Markel and others involved in "The Markel Report," but Fisher says a suit would be prohibitively expensive. "How much do you spend to fight something like this?" he asked. Susor's eBay registration was pulled last week, which means he's no longer doing business on the Internet flea market, at least not under his own name. Spokeswoman Evonne Gomez declined to say if Susor had been banished because of The Markel Report. "I can't give specifics on this account because of privacy issues," Gomez said. "But the activity outlined on Net54 would not be tolerated by eBay. "We have a very solid relationship with law-enforcement," Gomez added. "We take these kinds of allegations seriously." |
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The only issue I have with this current blog post is he didn't go far enough with Susor and how much real evidence Dan and gang has on him. Maybe the whole story wouldn't have been as interesting? Regardless I still think Okeefe is doing a good job on helping to expose bad things in the hobby. I just figured I would comment since my name is thrown around a few times.....best regards |
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Does Mr. O'Keefe buy suits off the rack, or does he have to have them specially tailored to accommodate those long arms with which he pats himself on the back? It's a shame he casts Dan extensive investigation in such a self-serving light. Wasn't necessary. I read and enjoyed "The Card," incidentally.
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It seems he may have missed the (to me) more interesting issue of why grading services fail to detect these alterations. I suspect it's a combination of they don't have time to look that hard for the $5 grading fee and the skill of the card doctors.
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Maybe he is too focused on shill bidding...
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Susor considered filing a defamation suit! What a laugh that is. Why would it be prohibitively expensive when if he needed money he can just spend 2 bucks on a raw card and shave it into $1000? Better than a money tree. And my advice to fraudsters who want to sue people who out them: filing a lawsuit is a lot tougher than actually serving it apparently.
And that damn O'Keeffee: still writing negative articles about the hobby. What a sumbitch. Doesn't he know that our hobby bankrolls so many worthwhile humanitarian ventures? Search for the swine flu vaccine? Cure for AIDS? Eliminating all world hunger? Comeon, Mike, lay off the 'great' guys and do your job already! |
The O'Keefe Blog.......
I agree with Leon’s assessment regarding fraud in the hobby. In fact, this investigation started before Mr. O’Keefe’s book, “The Card” was published. However, I’ll be the first to applaud Mr. O’Keefe for his coverage of many hobby related issues over the past several years. Leon is also correct in that this investigation was quite more expansive and thorough than what the article revealed. The study had diverse and extensive sources of scans and auction data of raw and graded cards won by eBay member “scottsusor” for evidence so that it would deflect any accusations of this being a one source conspiracy.
This brings me to my next point. As for the statements made by Susor’s attorney regarding that the cards were altered before his client received them - allow me to point out the utter absurdity of this assertion. First, you would have to believe that a significant number of raw card sellers on eBay, who generate large scans of mid-grade raw cards on their auctions, decided to conspire against their best raw card buying customer: “scottsusor”. The two ’63 Topps Jim King cards on page one of this thread would be a pair of many examples. You would also have to believe that when eBay member “scottsusor” won these cards, rather that just drop these mid-grade cards in the mail, these dealers would then have to go to painstaking efforts to alter these particular cards using some sophisticated paper modification techniques that if submitted to PSA, these cards would grade higher than advertised in raw form and be worth a lot more money in the marketplace. But no, rather than use these sophisticated alteration techniques to generate huge profits for themselves, they decided they wanted to facilitate some public spectacle that would humiliate and ban their best customer and only their best customer since one else has reported this problem. To compound the absurdity of this conspiracy, there were scans taken from eBay of graded cards “scottsusor” won, which later showed up for sale in different PSA holders with higher grades with a visually improved corner or a modified edge, etc. That’s how ludicrous this assertion is. Also, I can’t help but mention that about two weeks ago I received an e-mail from Susor’s attorney. It used words such as “deformation” and stated that my allegations were "absolutely false", etc. So I called up the law firm out of morbid curiosity and talked to his attorney. This guy gave me his full assurance that all I wrote was false and he client was completely innocent. The funny thing was that the attorney wasn’t even sure how to pronounce his client’s last name, which made me burst out laughing saying, “How can you possibly convince me you even know anything about this guy if you don’t know how to pronounce his name?” And yes Jeff, I too found the defamation lawsuit remark laughable. Finally, I hope I’m not reading too much into the article, but the last line seems to imply that law enforcement had some involvement with the eBay ban, which would be great if that’s the case. |
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Obviously Susor's mailman is the culprit.
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Deformation Lawsuit???
Dan, are you sure you weren't talking to the janitor? :D
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It's a shame JT Walsh is no longer with us as he bore more than a passing resemblance to Susor, and would have performer admirably in the inevitable big screen adaptation of the whodunnit mystery, "The Cards that Trimmed Themselves." As for who would portray the elves who magically appear in Susor's house every night and alter his cards unbeknownst to him, I'm thinking Vern Troyer and Elijah Wood.
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Another issue worthy of discussion from the New York Daily News Blog
There is one other crucial issue that I didn't discuss in my prior analysis of Mr O'Keefe's blog and that was following statement:
"....Houston-based attorney Bennett Fisher said Susor is an honest dealer......." First off, as a practice I don't drag in other people's non-sportscard related activities on these types of message boards, but since the person of interest mentioned it himself on the Collectors Universe Board, then I think it's fair game to mention that he has a disc jockey business: http://forums.collectors.com/message...92&STARTPAGE=2 Furthermore, in the communication I received from Mr. Susor's legal representation, it stated "....we are the attorneys for Susor Enterprises, Inc. and Scott Susor". So let's look at the website Susor uses to advertise his mobile disc jockey service, which is clearly identified with Susor Enterprises, Inc. http://www.yourdjhouston.com/ Please scroll down and look at Reason #1 why his DJ business is superior to others: "....and we are not part timers. This is our full time business....." Just to be clear, this statement didn't show up immediately after being a Non-Registered User on eBay last week. As many others involved in this investigation will attest, this statement was there before this thread was started and electronic copies have been made to validate that. But in case someone decides to edit that website, please look at this internet archive website, "Wayback Machine", particularly in 2007 and 2008 and look at Reason #4 regarding this same DJ business in those two years: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://...djhouston.com/ It's also worth pointing out that this statement, "....and we are not part timers. This is our full time business....." wasn't used in their Nov. 2006 website or earlier. So it's clear that this current #1 Selling Point was deliberately added by design, while around that same time eBay member "scottsusor" receives POWER SELLER status and was grossing typically $10,000 to $15,000 a month by selling these tough to find, low pop commons and typically buying about 300-500 raw vintage commons a month on eBay too. It's also important to note that both the eBay entity, "scottsusor" and this DJ business identify themselves strictly as Scott and Doreen Susor. So with his attorney vouching for his client's honesty, is it crystal clear that this eBay account is in no way a business, and that all of this buying and selling by "scottsusor" with a feedback of over 10,000 was just a time-wasting, money-losing hobby? If that's true, then Susor should now be thanking me that he's not longer allowed on eBay! So if Mr. Bennett Fisher's client, Scott Susor, is as honest as Mr. Fisher claims on the widely viewed New York Daily News Blog, then why have I been harrassed by Mr. Fisher and his law associate claiming I've damaged Susor Enterprises, Inc. when this eBay Power Seller account, "scottsusor" is not even a business according to their honest client? Has this been a case of brazen abuse of the legal system by several out-of-control, malicous attorneys who disregarded their client's honesty and attacked me over some inconsequential hobby issue? Any input here would be greatly appreciated. |
If they haven't taken legal action against you, and it strikes me as unlikely they will, I would just bravely ignore it.
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No one is getting sued here. For what it's worth, I usually don't get too concerned about attorneys who can't spell the very cause of action that they threaten my clients with. Susor will just creep back into the slimy hole from which he came for a while and then re-emerge with a different ebay name. In the meantime, he and his lovely wife will be doing their mobile DJ work. What a class act.
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I am 99% sure I have bought cards from him...I need to check back through my paypal account and see which ones I purchased.
(jpsaddiction on the 1968 list, and jparchitectus on ebay) |
Good work Dan. I know Susor bought a '64 Pete Runnels PSA 8.5 off me on eBay about 2-3 months ago. He must have been banned just a few days after buying it. I wonder if it's in a 9 holder now???
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Wow, fascinating thread; and with a happy ending, too!
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I don't know what a "deformation" action is but I bet it hurts, so you'd better watch out...I wonder, would he plead "slimder" or "label"?
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