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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I think he needs to get to 300 before he's deserving of the HOF. If he gets to 300, he will get in. <br /><br />He had a very high ERA and played for good teams. People sometimes forget that a pitcher gets more wins when he plays for good teams, and fewer wins when he plays for bad teams. One thing going for him is he always pitched lots of innings, which is something you want a starter to do, and is a service to the team. You'd rather have a Mike Mussina pitching than a Walter Johnson on IR.<br /><br />Assuming he retires or peters out soonafter, there are a lot of sportswriters right saying he's borderline or not HOF-worthy now when he's in the headlines. In five years, the bloom will have left the rose and it will be harder not easier to get votes. In the NFL, there are a lot of sure things when they retire who are lost in the crowd five years later. Though there are a lot more players and positions in the NFL, so the sheer numbers is a part.<br /><br />I believe if you win 300 games you get into the HOF, as 300 is a whole lot of wins. That's 15 wins for 20 seasons or 20 wins for 15 years, either of which is a HOF pitching.
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...was that he had never won 20. Now he's done that. The other knocks remain, but his treacherous road to Cooperstown got a little bit easier on Sunday. <br /><br />He should stick around until 300 if he wants the road to become likely. <br /><br /><br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>If he hits 300--he's in. If he doesn't, no way. End of story.
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Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>did you receive my e-mail from a week ago or so?<br />call me<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>If Mussina had pitched in the deadball era his 3.69 ERA would indeed be "very high". However, he pitched in the American league in the 90's and 00's when the league's ERA was over 4.50. I don't see how you can call his ERA "high" much less "very high" in that context.
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Nice win%. Dominant? Probably not. Look at how many times he led the league in the following categories:<br /><br />Wins (1)<br />ShutOuts (1 - same year as the year he led the league in Ws)<br />Ks (0)<br />ERA (0)<br /><br />Even the one thing people bring up he only led the league once: <br /><br />Win% (1)<br /><br />300 wins is the lock number for Mussina.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>John H.</b><p>I don't know how Mussina's career record can be discounted. Is there a problem with consistent excellence over a long period of time? Maybe Hank Aaron shouldn't have gotten in on the first ballot. After all, he never hit more than 47 home runs in a season. <br /><br />I know that that's a seemingly ridiculous example but the reason that Aaron is underrated on most lists of all-time greats is because he never had a record breaking or triple crown season. He only won one MVP, for cryin' out loud. All he did was hit between 35 and 45 homers every year. All Mussina does is win between 16 and 19 games every year. I think this season makes him a HOF'er.
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Using Aaron was a pretty poor example. He did happen to eclipse 500HRs (the magic number). He did happen to break the all time HR record. Aaron won the following:<br /><br />(2) Batting titles<br />(5) Slugging titles<br />(3x) Led the league in runs<br />(2x) Led the league in hits<br />(8x) Led the league in total bases<br />(4) HR titles<br />(4) RBI titles<br /><br />He's hard to compare to any other pitcher because there aren't any pitchers with a higher winning % that have won 20 games in a season only once while leading the league in only a couple of yearly categories during his long career. He's like Jimmy Ryan or George Van Haltren. Both have really nice consistent lifetime batting stats, but neither were dominant during their playing careers. <br /><br />I suppose you could make the arguement that there are a lot of "not so worthy" pitchers enshrined and he has better overall stats than they do. <br /><br />Let him get to 300 wins and hit the lifetime achievement award. Look at Sandy Koufax. He only had a few good years but boy were they DOMINANT years statistically. His flame didn't burn long but it sure was BRIGHT.
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Posted By: <b>D. Bergin</b><p>To put it in perspective. Phil Niekro had 197 Wins and was barely over .500 when he was the same age that Mussina is right now.<br /><br />Granted, Niekro played on some horrible teams but I thought that was pretty interesting. Mussina played on some pretty mediocre teams during his stint with the Orioles to.<br /><br />Going through Mussina's stats I came across Ben McDonald and couldn't believe he retired 10 years ago. I remember he was supposed to be the next big thing.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Mussina can not get in the Hall of Fame as long as Bert Blyleven and Jim Kaat are excluded.<br />Period.
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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I am leaning towards Mussina getting in (although I think he needs to get closer to 300). I am not a fan of his. He seems like a boring guy, but that shouldn't be a consideration. I, personally, have an appreciation for guys that can get people out without very good stuff.<br /><br />One of my favorite quotes is when Don Sutton stated (in regards to JR Richard): "Sure he can get people out with his stuff. I'd like to see him get people out with my stuff."<br />
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Of Blyleven, Kaat, Tommy John and Mussina who would you least want to start a big game? Mussina by a mile. No way he gets in unless he hits 300.
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>That is a great Sutton quote!
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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Well, it appears that Moose may hang them up. As a Yankee fan, I'm sorry to see him go. SI had a great article about him today. And yes, I still think he will be a HOF'er, even without making it to 300.<br><br><a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/john_donovan/11/19/mussina/index.html?eref=T1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/john_donovan/11/19/mussina/index.html?eref=T1</a><br><br>======================================<b r>For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit <a href="http://www.baseballandtobacco.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballandtobacco.com</a>
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p> i think Mussina will eventually make the Hall of Fame....especially considering he pitched in the 5-man rotation era
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>If Mussina was found in the HOF, I'd guess it would be because he bought a ticket.<br><br>But Lord only knows what can happen when it comes to someone who played in New York... A bunch of those folks who played in NY deserve to be in, some are iffy, and for some there is no doubt in my mind that they have no business being in the HOF. So the NY press and NY bias may well get Mussina in, undeservedly. <br><br>Still, I agree with that about it being ok if he hits .300 .
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I really wonder about his decision to retire if he cares at all about getting into the Hall of Fame. I couldn't put him in knowing the guys who didn't get in but have around the same amount of wins. He's not better than Jack Morris,and he doesn't have the world series resume that Morris does so I can't see any reason he should get more attention than him. The argument for him belonging should end there. When Morris was pitching,I considered him a future hall of famer, Mussina never crossed my mind as one.I think pitching for great teams in NY but having just a 7-8 record in postseason(including 3-7 in the last 5 years) doesnt help him at all because the win/loss record is a byproduct of the teams he played for.<br><br> Morris went a combined 59-28 for 3 teams(all different organizations) that he led to world series titles as the staff ace. Plus he had two other 20 win seasons. Sorry Moose,come back to me when you have 300 wins or a world series ring and we will talk,you're not Jack Morris,and hes topped out at 42% of the votes so far after nine years
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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Comparable W-L records:<br><br>Morris - 254-186 +68<br>John - 288-231 +57 <br>Kaat - 283-237 +46<br>Blyleven- 287-250 +37<br><br><br>Mussina - 270-153 +117<br><br><br>It's not Mussina's wins that get him in. It's his lack of losses. He's 117 games OVER .500! Every eligible pitcher who is +100 games over .500 is in the Hall.
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Posted By: <b>Steve Mitchell</b><p>After reading the first several posts on whether Mike Musina (MM) is a Hall of Fame pitcher, one name came immediately to mind: DON DRYSDALE. I recall a few years ago Drysdale received great praise from one hobby publisher who was impressed with DD's "presence": his baseball gravitas. <br><br>Frankly, Mussina is/was a much better pitcher than Drysdale according to the numbers and my own recollection. As of the end of '08, MM stood at 270-153, .638 pct., 3.68 ERA with (11) 200-IP seasons (9 straight), 5 times an All Star (but oddly not in '08 when he won 20), 7 X Gold Glove and 23-21, 3.42 in post-season against the best of the best. Further, he ranked in the league's Top Ten in ERA (11 times), Cy Young Award voting (9), wins (9) and 15 times ranked among the lowest in ratio of BB to Innings Pitched.<br><br>DD won 209, lost 166 on a 2.95 ERA exclusively for the Dodgers. He was an 8 time All Star, won no Gold Gloves (.937 FA), and was 3-2 on 2.95 ERA in post-season (World Series exclusively). <br><br>Drysdale went into the Hall of Fame 15 years after his retirement as an active pitcher. (I believe that would be in his 9th ballot year.) On the basis of Don Drysdale (and a number of others who could be cited), Mike Musina will one day have a plaque of his own at Cooperstown - but hopefully not before several other high quality hurlers (Bobby Mathews, Tommy John, Bert Blyleven, Jim Kaat and Tony Mullane and others) who have waited considerably longer.
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>Bobby Matthews and Tony Mullane? I almost choked on my beer.
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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p><<<<<It's not Mussina's wins that get him in. It's his lack of losses. He's 117 games OVER .500! Every eligible pitcher who is +100 games over .500 is in the Hall. >>>><br><br><br> I heard that today too and its wrong, Bob Caruthers 218-99,not in the hall of fame.<br><br> It's not that he wasn't a good pitcher but he was on some great teams. The teams he's pitched on his career are a combined 307 games over .500. He wasn't a better pitcher than Blyleven or Kaat who pitched for some horrible teams. Mussina had a 4.81 ERA in 1996 and finished 19-11, he had an era over league average 3 of the last 5 years yet was 9 games over .500 in those years combined. On a .500 team he would've had losing records more than likely
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Posted By: <b>ROBERT ADAMS JR</b><p>His winning percentage is huge no doubt but compare his complete games and shutouts to Blyleven . 242 to 57 . 60 to 23 .
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Posted By: <b>ROBERT ADAMS JR</b><p>I am thinking that Mussina is the Jim Rice or Al Oliver of pitching . REALLY close , But ...
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>John,<br><br>There's also a player that didn't win 200 games but he won 88 more games than he lost and had a 2.36 lifetime ERA to boot. Being 88 games over .500 with less than 200 wins is pretty impressive. Oh yeah, and this guy isn't in the HOF either.
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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Mussina doesn't have a lot of Losses because he didn't HAVE to Pitch a lot of Innings.<br><br>Sure Tommy John and Bert Blyleven pitched in the era of the four man rotation, thus giving them more Games Started, more Innings Pitched and more chances to Win ball Games. However, they DIDN'T have as much reliance on Bull Pens back then as they do today and they didn't have Mariano Rivera to Close out their Games either.<br><br>Because of this, guys like John and Blyleven stayed in Games longer, got tired and were probably scored upon more than they would have been if they Pitched in the modern era. Also, with as many Complete Games as they Pitched, I imagine there were probably many Gmaes in which they started where they were tired and didn't have their great stuff.<br><br>So, if you think Mussina is a Hall of Famer, put him on the teams that John and Blyleven played for, let him be in a four man rotation, let him Pitch a lot of Complete Games and throw a lot of Innings and NOT have a Closer and let's see how he would do.<br><br>Or, put John and Blyleven on the modern day Yankees, give them the Offense Mussina had to support him and the Bull Pen he had to follow him and let's see what their records would be.<br><br>If Blyleven was good enough to have over 200 Complete Games, 60 Shut Outs, 4,000 Innings Pitched and 3700 Strike Outs, just think what he would have been like if he only had to Pitch six or seven Innings every five days?<br><br>In conclusion, I like Mussina and he put up some good numbers BUT playing for the Yankees and having the talent around him that he did, he SHOULD have had a better record.<br><br>David
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>john/z,<br> Just to clarify on Caruthers; He's not in because he played only 9 years and thus is ineligible under the current rules. Agree with most on Blyleven, Morris, Kaat and a few of the 19th century guys, but I still think Moose is deserving.
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p><p>I think Mussina is a HOFer (personal Yankee bias), not sure he will get in and probably not first ballot but I think he was as consistant a pitcher over the past 2 decades as we have seen.</p><p>marty</p>
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>packs</b><p>I think he will certianly get in, maybe even first ballot. Pitched in the AL East his whole career the toughest division in baseball during the steroid era. His lifetime ERA is nearly a full run below league average and he was consistently one of the top pitchers in the league. He almost had I think 3 perfect games as well that he lost in the 8th or 9th inning. Maybe they were no hitters but still impressive.
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I was batting 1000 here against Pop, let's not spoil my fabulous win over him! Dan
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>D. Bergin</b><p>Here's a few Mussina years before he came to the mighty Yankees.<br><br>He went 19-9 in a year the Orioles were 71-73<br><br>He went 19-11 in a year the Orioles were 88-74<br><br>He went 18-7 in a year the Orioles were 78-84<br><br><br>So no, he didn't just win on good teams. <br><br><br>
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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Ed,<br><br>Caruthers only pitched 9 seasons but he did participate for 10 years. For some reason or other people don't include his 1893 participation. I think a big part of Caruthers not being in the HOF is because he played a bulk of his career in the AA. <br><br>There is a 19th century pitcher with 297 lifetime wins. If he'd only won three more games he'd be in the HOF. Three lousy wins...
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I've grown to like Mussina a lot over the years.<br><br>Yesterday I read an article somewhere - might have been Buster Olney on ESPN - that said that Mussina basically decided that if he was going to keep his career going, he'd have to chase 300 wins. He felt that it would take him at least three years to get there, and so if he was going to come back, it was going to be for three years. Since his kids are old enough to play youth sports, he could be coaching them now, and he didn't want to miss three years of that.<br><br>It gave me some insight into his priorities. Sacrifice a major pitching milestone, and weaken his chances of making the Hall of Fame, not to mention walking away from a few million more dollars, so he could spend more time with his kids.<br><br>I like him even more now.<br><br>-Al
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Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>I feel the comparisons to John and Blyleven are somewhat off-based. Let's but John and Blyleven in the AL East during the steriod (hitters) era and in a 5-man rotation and see how they compare. <br><br>======================================<br> For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit <a href="http://www.baseballandtobacco.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballandtobacco.com</a>
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>I can't understand why Bert Blyleven is not in the Hall. I loved Jim Kaat and he was a "very good pitcher" who should be in but I understand the reasons why he and Tommy John aren't. Don't agree with them but understand them. But Blyleven is different. He played on some horrible Twins teams. he wasn't there when Killebrew, Oliva and others were in their primes and he was a bulldog out there, pitching an astounding amount of complete games. He is generally felt to have had the best curveball of any pitcher in the modern era and is near the top in career strikeouts for all pitchers of all times. It makes me sick to see Sutton in and not Blyleven. If Pedro Martinez makes it, unless he has 4 or 5 20 game seasons in the future, I will puke...
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Bob,<br><br>Just my opinion... <br> <br>One of the main differences between Mussina and Martinez is DOMINANCE in pitching.<br><br>Mussina led the league in Wins one time. He's never led in K's or ERA. He did however win 7 gold gloves. <br><br>Martinez on the other hand was dominant. He has (5) ERA titles, (3) K titles but he led the league 5x in Ks/IP. He also led the league in Ws one time, like Mussina did. Martinez can also boast of an ERA below 3.00 (which is incredible considering the era in which he has pitched). His winning percentage is also greater than Mussina's, this leads to the fact that he has 115 more wins than losses.<br><br>Don't get me wrong, Mussina's a fantastic pitcher but the dominance thing just doesn't compare to Mussina. You are certainly on target about Bert Blyleven.<br><br> <br><br><br>
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OT - I need a few opinions from baseball fans
Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Tbob, I'm guessing that your post contained at least some hyperbole but do you believe that Jim Kaat has a better hall of fame case than Pedro Martinez?<br><br>I agree w/you re: Blyleven, btw. Clearly he's been penalized for pitching on poor teams.<br><br>Howard
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