Sorry, the reserve pool went down, so they paid out something.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Maybe... Can someone here verify that?

Would love to see what appears in their next quarterly report, as awareness of the scandal hadn’t yet impacted that particular time-Frame. All we’ve seen to date is denial and deflection to the “bad actors” and the sellers.

According to this post on CU yesterday, PWCC blocked a guy after voiding at his request the purchase of an outed Moser card. But told him he could still consign. :)


https://forums.collectors.com/discus...mment_12382315

I purchased a 1953-54 Rocket Richard parkhurst card in March for $2800 that was certified high end. That card turned out to be a Moser altered card. After I discovered this was an altered card, I asked to void the transaction as I had consigned items with PWCC at the time and the card in question was still in their possession. After two weeks of deliberations from PWCC I was getting nowhere so I contacted Brent directly. They did void the transaction.

The consequence for me as a buyer in demanding the transaction of a proven altered card be voided has been that I am now blocked. Here's the text of the email...

_Hi Nathanael,

Thanks for reaching out. Yes, there was a block placed on your eBay user I.D. as a result the 1953 Parkhurst Rocket Richard. Unfortunately it is to close to that incident date to consider removing the block on your account. However, that block only has to do with your eBay account and it's ability to bid in our auctions, you are still more than welcome to consign with us, that wouldn't be a problem at all._

Just thought people should know what to expect when asserting yourselves in returning proven altered cards. The idea that I could consign but not bid seems kind of strange.

-Nathanael

WOW...what a POS Brent/PWCC is!!!!

I'd send him a thank you note for blocking me, but that's me.

So I haven't seen anyone post that they got an email from PWCC (or anyone else) informing them that they purchased altered cards and to please return them for a prompt and cheerful refund.

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

I’ve been watching this all unfold and thought I had been unaffected. I didn’t see any of my certs. Today I received an unsolicited refund offer from PWCC for a $600 card I purchased in 2014.

Wow; glad to see they still have some cash in the vault to refund you.

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

Ask Jeffrey he should know

You missed Steve Sloan's statement, advising people with altered cards to contact their seller and only to contact PSA if the seller was "unknown."

Never too late to make amends when there's a guillotine hanging over one's head.

Since PWCC has been accused of perpetuating the fraud against customers and PSA, it was recommended to PSA that to reduce their liability, that the buyers of affected cards try to get refunds from the scammers first before making a run on the bank of Collector's Universe.
If the place you bought it from determines that they do not want to take the return, then you contact PSA about their grade guarantee. One of the big takeaways from the stockholders conference call three months ago was that PSA actually reduced their reserve fund, while everyone on this board expected them to increase it because of the scandal.

There is some hearsay that says that the big submitters to PSA and SGC were invited to meet with them and both companies highly recommended that if the submitters wanted to keep their privileges to submit, that they take all the returns and eat the losses themselves. That would absolve PSA and SGC from having to take as many returns of altered cards. COMC is refunding people who bought altered or fake cards on their site as well, and claim that they're going to inform buyers of exposed cards that they should return them for full refunds to COMC. Maybe after paying out all those refunds, COMC takes all the altered cards and submits them to PSA under the grade guarantee since they weren't the alterers, just a venue for sale?

I'm surprised nobody in this conference call asked if PWCC regained their submission privileges, or if any other scammers had their submission privileges taken away. If so, what are their names? Why isn't the "Never Get Cheated" company supplying us with a list of known alterers/trimmers?

I got one in September, returned the card as requested, got a check shortly after that. The card was post-war (1950). The check cleared.

PSA should have to buy all The Wrongfully Graded Altered Cards Back.

In my opinion they’re the root cause/major facilitator of all this.

Which card and are you returning it?

None of this makes any sense at all.

PSA has the guarantee of an unaltered card, encapsulates said card, it then gets exposed as tainted and they say go back to where you bought it?

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?

100% Correct I’ve been asking this question since day one! Falls on death ears I believe because people are making millions off PSA brand selling their product ECT. It’s the old don’t bite the hand that feed you silence that continues to facilitate the grandiose Debacle of Greed.

One would think if PSA was able to prove the submitter in bad faith submitted bad cards that were altered in an attempt to be graded with a number grade that they would have to go after that submit to civilly recover the money They had to pay back to the owner of the altered card. I’ve heard of this being done before by PSA. PSA has a guarantee make them prove that these alleged bad actors doctored/attempted to defraud them.

If PSA gets off Scott free without any responsibility this S will only continue the bad guys will just get more sophisticated in hiding their identities, who consigns to who purchases what handles are used etc.
I thought people on here wanted to HAVE Good Grading Company that didn’t grade bad cards, isn’t that the purpose of them?

In my view you’re going to see a major battle between PSA an alleged major problem submitters.

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.
So why wouldn't PSA push the financial burden onto a different company who is also at fault for the fraud. PWCC is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation right now. They're walking on eggshells. If they're willing to take the returns, PSA gets off with a whole lot less complaints and fiscal hit to their shareholders. Joe Orlando even said this scandal WASN'T MATERIAL TO THEIR BUSINESS!

If PWCC refuses to refund, then they likely face stiffer penalties from the FBI investigation. PSA at that point would be liable for the guarantee.

Nicely stated.

You don't get that Brent Mastro was in on the trimming card scam from the beginning? :D., maybe they'll sue PSA for the $$$ and continue to deny deny deny, right calvindog?

Isn't it obvious??? THEY are in on the scam, that's the only logical conclusion PERIOD

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

Not if they submitted the cards which I am sure in many cases they did.

Well, they can try. More likely they'd get a breach of contract countersuit?

PWCC would not sue PSA in the first place for cards it submitted, or for cards consigned to it by known doctors.

While I don't own any of the outed cards or even purchased from PWCC that I can remember, I took a card to PSA at the National that was clearly not the correct grade for the holder. They contacted me a couple weeks later via phone call and agreed and offered compensation. Not sure if you were looking for examples of PWCC scandal cards or just cards that were covered by the guarantee in general.

I wonder if during the PWCC office Christmas party 'Secret Santa,' the most common $20 or less gift is a new pair of scissors??

LMAO

Rotatrim

Didn't the guy here with the altered T3 get a reimbursement directly from PSA?

yes but he bought it from Dan McKee, not PWCC.

so any cards they did not submit or get consigned to it by a known doctor you agree they could go after PSA for if they made payment on to a wronged buyer

also why bring up suing, they can submit a claim. Doesnt have to be a lawsuits..why so quick to bring up lawsuit. Some people pay based on a letter

Because I was responding to a post that specifically mentioned a possible countersuit. Carry on, Mr. Chao.

It is a good point that if the submitter signs a contract stating he did not altered the card (or perhaps know the card is altered?), they broke/lied on the the grading contact and are liable. This, of course, doesn't dismiss that PSA wsa unable to identify the alterations.

I think PSA should pay the price for their inabilities to do their job, but forgers and liars should also pay a price.

you actually responded to my post specfically as was well saying PWCC cant collect from PSA if PWCC was the one that submitted the cards, so thus, that would imply pwcc could collect on the ones that were not submitted, Mr. Chao.

so PWCC can refund and then collect from PSA....so buck can still end with PSA .. (net54 members has asked why would pwcc refund when it should be psa, so this gives one explanation on some of the cards at least)

I never said otherwise. Just not on cards they submitted or were consigned by known doctors.

I wonder what percentage that would be...

I would guess most of the doctored cards they handled, they knew about. Not all of course.

Peters point above is what I was referencing in my original post about this subject. Please do not take that I am in favor of any company or person that alters cards- I am not. Regardless of who is submitting these cards, as the industry leader they need to detect the alterations. Relying on the submitter to sign the submission form stating they haven’t altered the cards is simply an easy way out for them to pass the buck. The reason I submit cards and my money to them is to make sure they haven’t been altered. I’m an honest guy but I hope PSA doesn’t take only my word when I submit that the cards in the grading order aren’t altered. Looking over at BODA, it seems that they rely on that disclaimer and trust of the submitter to often.

Agree PSA has to be challenged on breach of conduct acting in bad faith by alleged card doctor whom submitted. Prove that alleged submitter altered the card and has submitted in bad faith. Idk what the hell is their purpose if they can’t back up their end. I’m not on anyone’s side however IMO Allowing PSA to Continue to PUNT any Responsibility/liability will have serious long term detriment to the hobby/industry.

It’s all a bunch of garbage finger pointing/cover up’s

Card Doctor, Shady Auction Houses, and PSA’s Inabilities/lack of responsibilities are gonna tank the card industry. Greed :-(....sad

A bad actor or three won't tank this industry/hobby.

Even 50 don't seem to be tanking it. It's the Teflon Hobby.

Stuff. Need I say the rest?

You need to add a few 0s to that to be even close to the number of bad people in the hobby. Your number is way closer to the honest people.:)

After bnorth and myself that leaves 48 remaining honest people in the hobby

It's like the ancient Greek Diogenes, searching for an honest man.

Stuff but more importantly the answer is always money. So many collectors and dealers are in up to their ears with PSA, and it's their livelihood for many of them, they can't quit their sacred cow....even if it is producing sour milk. Who cares if it is a fraudulent card, it is in a holder. LOL.....Remember, we are just troublemakers. Kudos again to the guys over on Blowout for all of the fraud exposed so far. I am sure it will be going on for as long as they want to look. It is sad.

i really havent seen anyone posting about getting a refund or resolving a dispute on this thread for awhile

apparently none.

A couple months ago I received an unsolicited email from PWCC that they suspected a 1969 PSA 9 Clemente I had won the year prior might be altered. I sent it to them and a week later i received a check for the full auction price. Nothing to sign etc. Brief communication and refund.

great to hear and to see people are free to share info without restriction..

Well done on their behalf.

Let's hold off on congratulating the crooks for covering their asses...

Likely on the advice of counsel.

They’re no saints...this is the right thing to do....it’s damage control mitigation

My only hope is some great lawyering throws this back onto PSA and or the other TPG’s

Excited for your auction tonight, I’ll be bidding/watching.

Whatever the motivation, and I am completely cynical about that, it's better than the nothing that most industry players apparently are doing.

I'd like to know what is being is going to be done with these cards when the investigation is over, assuming these cards are being held as evidence?

..

Hopefully!

Burn Baby Burn !

Fraudulently holdered cards.
 

They are still worth money just not in the holders they are in. And at a fraction of the price.

Brent is going to have a special FBI auction touting the new great investments. 2018 was $60K, now $7K!

As sleazy as they are, at least PWCC is acknowledging the issue and proactively offering full compensation. Even if it's solely due to legal advice, at least it's something.

Lots better than the head-in-the-sand experts, PSA, who does nothing proactively (or reactively, for that matter).

Now now, Steve Sloan just this hour sent a very nice letter that I posted on the other thread.

Yes, very nice letter...

It gives you that great warm fuzzy feeling, just in time for the holidays. Reading it was a true "Hallmark Moment" for me. :rolleyes:

Psa may be too big to fail...apparently PWCC is not!!

My idea was to put a hole punch in them like they do with playing cards that used be used in Las Vegas

Unbelievably un-woke. Everyone just stick your head in the sand . Nothing to see here. Move on sheeple.

Worst email since Joe O sent his. Appallingly disingenuous .

I can't post it too many times.

And you don’t think the next wave of a hole card doctors will just fix the holes?

Whether they are re-holdered as an "A" or labeled as trimmed/doctored, whatever, I guarantee they will be back on the market in new holders or sold as raw over and over again if the TPG's happen to be smarter the second time around.

That’s why a hole punch is a better solution than re-holdering these cards as “A”. It’s infinitely more difficult to restore and conceal a hole punch than it is to crack open a slab (which is exactly what would happen in “wave two”)

Plus can put the hole punch all the way to the edge and at same location on most cards so first thing graders can do is check that location....

now the 'fix' can be almost anywhere as it stands.........

At this point so many things are bad all the way around, all the outed altered cards, most of the sales since 2014 and up....I can’t explain them? which ones were fake? Which ones were real? All of this Market Manipulation Distorts what the real true value of the card is in said grade whether that grade is real or a bad card. Maybe we will come back to reality pre 2014 prices on graded cards who knows I have no idea, people don’t seem to be stopping their buying habits but then again are these real sales or vaulted relisted cards idk ??
They can put holes in these altered cards or destroy them when the government is done with it’s evidence . Nothing matters anymore it’s all smoke and mirrors.

Since this thread involves PWCC --just thought I'd post --if you have poor condition butterfinger commons, please do NOT sell through PWCC! There is a lot of 12 right now I'm not bidding on. I bought the only two poor condition lots on ebay in the last couple months (based on searching for recent sales a few weeks ago), so I've gotta be one of the biggest buyers of really crappy butterfinger commons! Only saw this PWCC lot cause I often search ebay for Butterfinger lots. I am never bidding on anything on PWCC site ever again so I can't bid on this lot darn it.

Unfortunately, PWCC losing my business will have zero effect on their bottom line as I am not even a small fish, not even a minnow . . .I have bid on quite a few ungraded vintage lots the last couple years, but I only ever won one or two small lots.

In another thread there is a post about the over/under on PSA lasting 8 years.

Now that more people know about PWCC how about the over/under on PWCC lasting 2 years?

Personally with their lawyer who IMHO goated them into hiring him I will take the over.

We could all do a group submission of our higher end cards to PSA and then consign them to PWCC, a win win for everyone.:D

Over I’m thinking we see them, PWCC, going civilly to Court Against PSA for millions in damages.

mmmm I don't see that happening as then PWCC is open to all sorts of extra scrutiny. Claiming damages against a company you set out to deceive is not a winning proposition in my book. If anything the lawsuit would make more sense the other way around, but again PSA would never do that due to the level of scrutiny it would open them up to.

You and I are plankton to PWCC

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20091121200740

You jest my friend. PWCC as the damaged party? LOLOLOL. Oh that's rich, the man who knowingly did years and tons of business with Gary and Lord knows how many superstar card doctors, as plaintiff? Not to mention all the cards he appears to have uh um conserved himself.

No, Brent's playing defense. If he survives without doing time and with his company intact -- and I do think that is likely to be honest -- he's going home, he's not going on offense.