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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I'm reprising the theme of this thread for those of you who clicked onto the "bottom of page" link and have not read it.<br /><br />Also, I have updated the list of T206's that conform to the T206 back Rule that I refer to as the "A-B-C-D connection". <br /><br />The "A-B-C-D connection" is illustrated here with the four tougher T206 backs designed for the 350 Series that have identical<br /> stylized FRAME and lettering. It is probably safe to conclude that the same artist at American Lithographic Co. (ALC) designed<br /> these four backs. The design is exactly the same....just the name of the T-brand differs.<br />These tougher T206 cards were very likely inserted in their respective cigarette packs at the end of the 350 Series run. Scot<br /> Reader's "Inside T206" book identifies the release of American Beauty 350 cards in the Summer of 1910 (quite later than the <br />availability of the Piedmont, Sweet Caporal, and Sovereign 350 cards). The Cycle, Broad Leaf, and Drum cards, I would theor-<br />ize, were available simultaneously with the American Beauty's, or in the Fall of 1910.<br />Therefore, due to this late date, the T206's in particular with Broad Leaf, and Drum backs were very Short-Printed.....as ALC<br />was more involved in producing their last (460) Series of cards to be released at the end of 1910 and early 1911.<br /><br />However, there appears to be an emerging pattern, that all 4 of these backs were printed on certain Subjects. For example:<br />Dineen is found with AB 350, BL 350, Cy 350, and DRUM. If this observation is valid, then it can prove to be very valuable in<br /> predicting the availaility of a DRUM (or a Broad Leaf) back. Incidently, this "rule" is only applicable to Subjects (approx. 200 <br />cards) in the 350-only Series and the six Super-Prints.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/ambtybl350cycledrum.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Here is a list of the 350-only cards that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection"....they cover all four bases.<br />As time goes by more T206's will show up with all four backs.....current total = 48<br /><br />Abstein<br />Arellanes<br />Barbeau<br />Batch<br />Becker<br />Burke<br />Casey<br />Clark<br />Congalton<br />Davidson<br />Delehanty (Louisville)<br />Dineen<br />Donovan (throw)<br />Downs<br />Engle<br />Freeman<br />Hinchman (Toledo)<br />Jackson<br />Ed Killian (portrait)<br />Knabe<br />Krause (pitch)<br />Kroh<br />Lennox<br />Livingstone<br />Maddox<br />Maloney<br />McAleese<br />Milan<br />Mitchell (Toronto)<br />Moran (Chicago)<br />Moran (Providence)<br />Nattress<br />Phillippe<br />Purtell<br />Randall<br />Raymond<br />Rhodes<br />Rudolph<br />Schrim<br />Scott<br />Slagle<br />Speaker<br />Starr<br />Strang<br />Titus<br />Unglaub<br /><br />Here are two of the six Super-Prints (Am Bty 350 with Frame) that conform to the "A-B-C-D connection".......<br /><br />Chance (yellow portrait)<br />Evers (bat-yellow sky)<br /><br /><br />And, I am still looking for a Blue portrait Chase with a DRUM back to complete my "A-B-C-D connection" of this,<br /> my favorite, T206 card. <br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I do have the following Drum's that are not on your list:<br /><br />Raymond<br />Schrim<br /><br />PS I'll try to catch up tomorrow. <br /><br /> Be well Brian<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You hit back-to-back HR's with Raymond ans Schirm....they are part of the "A-B-C-D club". I added them to the list.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>ty_cobb</b><p>Haven't had much time for participation on the board, as I'm mostly on<br />the baseball diamond with my 8yr old son these days!<br /><br />but some thoughts;<br />Cycle 350 is a July 1910 issue, and whether or not AB's were issued<br />concurrently or slightly before is a given in my mind.<br /><br />most of the A-B-C-D pattern already exists in Bill Heitmans pamphlet<br />'The Monster' and I don't expect to see any variation from that...<br /><br />I'm going to enjoy owning the Broadleaf 350 Bresnahan, and yes <br />'theoretically' there should be a Drum<br /><br />Cheers guys!<br />an interesting post as always Ted!<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Anyone here would like to venture a guess to this question....Why did the T206 designers drop the FRAME design for their add-<br />itional T-brand backs in their last Series....American Beauty 350 & 460, LENOX, UZIT ?<br /><br />And of course, they added the Red HINDU back in the 460 series; but, the HINDU design was a repeat of the 150 series HINDU.<br /><br />My guess is they fired the Frame designer....what's your guess ?<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/array15brandst206.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>My guess is that it was a mistake - the Uzit, AB 460 series and Lenox were all intended to have the same frame design as the AB 350, Cycle, etc but somehow, it got overlooked and the cards rolled off the presses without the frame being added.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>David Reis</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />In terms of rarity, how do the frameless AB 350 and 460 cards compare to the versions with the frames? It does seem odd to me that there would be two versions in the same series unless it was a mistake.<br /><br />David R
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I never really noticed my AB 350's had a border and borderless version.....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1213031112.JPG">
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JON<br /><br />It might have been just a simple matter of omission as you suggest.<br /><br />I think it is more complicated than that. The complexity of the Monster suggests that ATC and their "buddies" at ALC<br />appear to have left very little to chance in the design of these 522 cards (Magie & Joe Doyle being the exceptions to<br /> this premise).<br /><br /><br />LEON<br /><br />Where's your CYCLE 350 ?<br /><br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't think I even have a Cycle 350 yet. I have never really focused on the T206 backs because of the few that will be impossible to find...the ones that are more difficult than BL460 or Drum. I am sure there will be one in the future..
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>If you are interested in acquiring a CYCLE 350 in the "nearer future"....email me and I'll offer you several to choose from.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The American Beauty 460's are much tougher to find the either of the American Beauty 350's.<br /><br />TED Z<br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Also, I can personally tell you how tough the AB 460 cards are. I have been collecting a sub-set of these backs.<br />My homework indicates that there are approx. 75 possible AB 460's....and, so far I am only 1/3 the way there.<br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>David R</b><p>Thanks Ted. Probably explains why I have a bunch of AB 350s (frame and no frame) but no 460s <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Does the 460 come with a frame?
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p><img src="http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm40/drdduet/th_t213r.jpg"><br /><br />I believe this fits right into the ABCD (ABCCD)connection.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>A T213-1.....a great observation, guy. And, if I recall correctly, these Coupon cards were issued in 1910.<br /> Coinciding with the time the T206 American Beauty-Broad Leaf-Cycle-Drum (A-B-C-D) cards were issued.<br /> So now you've re-named this "connection" as the "A-B-C-C-D" one....very interesting. I have to give this<br /> new discovery some more thought. <br /><br />These T213-1 cards are very tough to find; and, another interesting coincidence is that the T213 cards<br /> are narrow like the AB cards....hmmmm !<br /><br />Here my lone Coupon card, a T213-3 Chase.....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/at213chase1.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/achasecoupon.jpg"><br /><br /><br />Thanks for your great input to this subject,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Compare Coupon type 1 backs to T206 Cycle backs...the borders are exactly the same...down to that "frilly" little design midway on each side.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The Frame, the Lettering style, and the 1910 date of this Coupon card are all identical to the A-B-C-D T206's.<br />Also, this early Coupon issue was produced at American Lithographic, so it all jives. If it was not for the blue<br />typography in the captions, we might just consider these Coupon Cigarette cards as a "16th T-brand" sub-set<br />of the T206 set.<br /><br />Once again....thanks for checking this out.<br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Ted - the 1910 Type 1 Coupons from 1910 didn't have blue lettering on the front - they had brown. <br /><br />Only the Type 2 and 3 Coupon's from 1914/15 and 1919 respectively had blue lettering.<br /><br />Edited to add Type 1 photo:<br /><br /><a href="http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/jon_canfield/?action=view¤t=t213.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j263/jon_canfield/t213.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>I think it would be a good idea to explore the 68 subjects that appear in the Coupon Type 1 set and to see if they match up with some other T206 series. I never quite understood why it is always assumed that the Type 1's were not part of the T-206 distribution. In fact, I always thought there is a more evidence that they were part of the T-206 distribution than to not be included.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You make a good point. Coupon cigarettes were part of the American Tobacco Trust.<br /> And, as I said previously....the T213-1 cards were produced by American Lithographic.<br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Ted - I'm with you buddy. I also feel like your points regarding the "scarcity" of the type-1's and their sizing are important. I will freely admit, however, that I am unsure who the subjects in the Type 1's include, the poses, etc. I would like to see if the 68 cards are similar to some other back... for example, if the Type 1's match up with the 150 SC distribution (or any other combination of back and series, etc). I truly feel that if it is explored in more detail, we may be able to come up with very good evidence that Coupon Type 1's should be included in the T-206 set.<br /><br />The fact that there are also Type 2's and 3's does not change my thinking. Type 2's and 3's are different in form. The fronts have blue type as you pointed out and the backs are different (with different framing that does not match any T-206 back design). The type-set is also different, as is the paper stock, etc. Sweet Caporal, Piedmont and AB all went on to produce T205's. Coupon went on to produce Type 2's and 3's (IMO).
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>See Ted's ABCD thread.<br /><br />I've compared T213-1's to T206's in hand. T213-1 is the standard T206 size. T213-1 does have name on front inked in brown. T213-1 does appear to be on a thinner card stock than the standard T206. In my opinion T213-1 is a subset to T206; if anything they are more closely related to T206 than they are to T213-2 & T213-3.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1213138088.JPG"> <br /><br />Now let's see what subjects we have. Post'em if you got'em.<br /><br />Edited to say OOPS! meant to start a new thread for T213-1 images and list.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1213138691.JPG"> <br /><br />Here they are (x for drum) side by side.<br /><br />Edited to add....<br />(+)<br />1--same size as standard T206<br />2--same images as T206's<br />3--identical inking for front caption<br />4--identical advertiser frame on reverse<br />5--same overall card design<br />6--same maker<br />7--born in 1910<br />(-)<br />1--thinner card stock<br />2--historically associated with T213-2 and T213-3 (perhaps incorrectly)<br /><br />If one were to analyze some of the other T206 brands (American Beauty, Broadleaf, for example) one would find just as many differences from the "standard" T206.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The Subjects of the T213-1's that I am familiar with are from the T206 350 & 350/460 Series.<br />So far, this is coincident with the T206 Subjects associated with A-B-C-D connection.<br /><br />Is this the info that you were asking for ?<br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Greg B.</b><p>There was a complete T213-I set sold in Mastro within the past 3 years, can't remember the details, but if someone has the catalogue it would give a pretty difinitive list...interesting topic.<br />Greg B.<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I wonder if the designation is different for Coupons because they are a Louisiana issue. There always seemed to be a bright line drawn between ATC and Louisana collectors way back in the day.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dave,<br /> No line drawn.... ATC owned Coupon before the breakup and Ligget& Myers afterward, but the same manager Mr. Irby was still in charge. In fact Mr. Irby was in charge before ATC bought him out, so nothing really changed much in LA. In fact I believe that much of the Tobacco wars in LA after the breakup between ATC and People's Tobacco contributed to the continuation of the cards being released as premiums. The 2 companies fought hard over LA and sued each other a number of times. Thank God, otherwise we might never have seen the t213's or t216's.... Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS Ted, pretty easy to add to your earlier thoughts<br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Brian, I'm sorry-your post is not specific enough and I'm going to need more detail <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Dave,<br /> I'm sorry... I used to have time to finish my research projects, but now I only have enough info to be dangerous. Be well Brian
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The following 20 (T206) Subjects from the Southern League (8 teams) are included in the T213-1 set.<br /><br />Bay (Nashville)<br />Bernhard (Nashville)<br />Breitenstein (New Orleans)<br />Carey (Memphis)<br />Cranston (Memphis)<br />Ellam (Nashville)<br />Fritz (New Orleans)<br />Greminger (Montgomery)<br />Hart (Little Rock)<br />Hart (Montgomery)<br />Hickman (Mobile)<br />Jordan (Atlanta)<br />Lentz (Little Rock)....sic..(Sentz)<br />Molesworth (Birmingham)<br />Perdue (Nashville)<br />Persons (Montgomery)<br />Reagan (New Orleans)<br />Rockenfeld (Montgomery)<br />Smith (Atlanta)<br />Thornton (Mobile)<br /><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Thanks Ted - that's exactly what I was looking for.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />As usual, you deliver the goods.<br /><br />Thanks for sharing!
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Try reading this document regarding the PEOPLE'S TOBACCO CO. of Louisana and it should provide more detail regarding Brian W's post. <br /><br /><a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=246&invol=79" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=246&invol=79</a><br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The majority of T213-1's (except the 20 - So. Lgers.) are the same Subjects that fit the A-B-C-D pattern of the T206's.<br />I don't think this is a mere coincidence....it was by design.<br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> Happy Father's Day.... It took you a few more days than I thought...<br /> But you are still the man. Keep searching there's more to the story.<br /><br /> Be well Brian
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>And, a Happy Father's Day to you, too....ole Buddy.<br /><br />I've been tracking this connection for some time now....ever since I became interested in the People's Tobacco Co. (T216) cards;<br /> and, the Louisana connection.<br /><br />You and I should compare our notes.<br /><br />Be good,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I look forward to it... <br /> Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS Who has the time machine this week???? You or me???
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>John Scott emailed me with an interesting point. John feels that the T213-1 cards should really be classified as an "ASSORTED"<br /> brand in the T206 set. As a long time Brooklyn collector, John has all five T213-1 Brooklyn players (Dunn, Hunter, Lennox, Mar-<br />shall and McElveen).<br />Furthermore, he has observed that these same five Subjects in the T206 set are very difficult to find with ASSORTED backs (or<br /> they just don't exist). <br /><br />After some consideration, I think his point regarding the T213-1's makes very good sense......what do you think ?<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I've always wondered why carve out the same-front type 1s from T206 and group them with the quite different type 2 and type 3 cards. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>While Burdick definitely made a few mistakes (W503, H801-7 etc...) I still feel the T213's are correctly categorized. All 3 series got put in with Coupon Cigarettes and should be in the same category...to me it still makes the most sense. regards
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>T213-1 is a fascinating issue because it seems to straddle two different sets. It's shares a Coupon ad back with the later series 2 and 3, and it conforms to the design of the T206 A-B-C-D backs, making it appear to be a T206. <br /><br />I lean towards it being part of T206, but there is a compelling argument the other way too.
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Your T206 Brooklyn guys....Dunn, Hunter, Lennox, Marshall, and McElveen are only found with one ASSORTED brand....TOLSTOI.<br />I scanned several T206 surveys to determine this.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> Here's a Marshall for you....<br /><br />[IMG]<img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0018-7.jpg">[/IMG]<br />[IMG]<img src="http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q257/hogan6g/Scan0019-6.jpg">[/IMG]
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Show us some more of your DRUM's......we don't often see enough of them.<br /><br />Best regards ole Buddy,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Four Frank Delehanty cards illustrating an actual example of the A-B-C-D connection.<br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/delehantyabblcydrum.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcydrumbacks.jpg"><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>One of my several A-B-C combinations waiting for a DRUM to complete the connection.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcygrimshaw.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcygrimshawbks.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Another one of my several A-B-C combinations waiting for a DRUM to complete the connection.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcytannehill.jpg"><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/abblcytannehillbks.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>johnny</b><p>TED!!!<br /><br />u noticed the darker color pied fact 42 "dark blue"....they are a variation of the "light" blue!!!!!!....i have been following them ...I THINK I HAVE 2 DARK BLUE PIED 42'S, took me a while to get...i'll check who they are , but they are like 5% of the total, kinda like a "brown" lenox or a a back color variation...in any case, they are pretty tuff!!!<br /><br /><br />johnny
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T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>That Piedmont 460 Fac. 42 caught my eye instantly. I have never seen one with a dark blue back<br /> like the one that Marc posted on this thread. I have four of these rare backs and they all look like <br />they are "faded" blue.<br /><br />I would be interested in knowing what T206 Subjects are on your dark blue versions.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />
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