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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Getting back to the original post and Haas' comment that he sent it to SGC because having his own company grade the card would look like a conflict of interest - that is laughable. Did he not perceive of the possible conflict when he submitted the card? <br /><br />Perhaps the real reason he sent it to SGC was because his card continues to lose value in a GAI slab and will likely continue to do so - at least until GAIs grand re-opening on Monday.

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Posted By: <b>Jack R.</b><p>Regardless of purchased or complimentary copies, <br />The NY Post has a large circulation and is based in a major media center.<br />A bit more scope than a paper from Waterloo Iowa, for instance.<br /><br />The publicity may not be all bad.<br />Most people are aware there is a possibility of false/altered artworks, jewelry, coins, and the like. Potential autograph forgery is also well known.<br />So, sportcards are not immune to similar "altering". Perhaps some of the general public did not concieve that a baseball card could be worth that much, and even be considered for alteration.

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Posted By: <b>Paul Moss</b><p>Well we do seem to be finally getting back on track as opposed to a stimulating discussion regarding the thrilling world of newspaper distribution that is one of the finest thread hijackings I have ever witnessed. What does worry me is the lack of commentary concerning Haas' alleged statement as written in this acticle. Let's face it, substitute Joe Orlando for Forman and PSA for SGC, we'd be over 300 posts by now, with every conspiritorial theory from Joe Orlando being linked to the Khmer Rouge and the rumor that the first PSA slabs were made from human skulls.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />You are right. I have refrained from commenting because Dave is a friend of mine. I am sure others have refrained from commenting due to loyalty to SGC. But if this was Joe Orlando--it would set a record for responses.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1091141182/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1091141182/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1183579935/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1183579935/</a><br /><br /><br />Jim, <br /><br />When you call Doug, would you mind asking him about the 2nd link?<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />300 posts? Yeah, in the first hour.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Yes I will.<br /><br />Plan on calling Doug when I get the time.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>Thanks Jim.<br /><br />Tom

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I disagree. Whatever we might think of psa, its service, and its ability to grade accurately, I dont think any of us would believe psa is actively alters cards.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Wow...just got through reading the threads that Tom Nieves just posted... The baseball card hobby is messier than I had even imagined possible. I'm starting to think that Jim C's initial estimate as to altered cards may not be too far from the truth. Sad and sickening. Not too sure how I feel about any of the grading companies now.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Come on Paul. Not all improprieties, perceived or actual, are going to be talked about openly here. This board has a LONG standing tradition to be selective in the scandalous topics which are discussed. We know for certain that Mastro, PSA and GAI are evil and therefore anything they do will be scrutinized to no end. <br /><br />I have always enjoyed watching who gets a free pass and who gets lynched. Certain people and businesses are held to different standards. You could almost get fooled by reading some of the threads that people actually cared about the health of the hobby but when some issues are swept under the rug you know otherwise and conclude it is nothing more than an agenda. <br /><br />If people who post here truly cared then they should always be willing to ask the tough questions. Not just sometimes.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I hope Frank didn't get swept under the rug.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />I will answer that question. Dave Forman is not a dealer. And I think you owe it to this board to prove otherwise or not make such an innuendo.<br /><br />Even I can provide a link to the loch ness site that doesn't make the alledged creature any more of a reality.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.lochness.co.uk/livecam/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.lochness.co.uk/livecam/</a><br /><br />Waiting for the proof...<br /><br />edited for spelling

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Posted By: <b>Tom Nieves</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />The only question that was asked is if Jim would ask Doug about what was posted in one of the links. I did not offer any opinion in regards to the links. If you are looking for proof of anything, you should be asking Steve Verkman and/or Jim Newman.<br /><br />Tom

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />No problem. But I have never seen somebody post links that are not intended to bolster there claim or innuendo. As far as, Steve or Jim, the board would welcome any proof to back up their opinions.<br /><br />Many of us have opinions about this or that but to flippantly make such an egregious charge (or to link to an egregious charge) is aggressive and reckless in a public forum.<br /><br />Charlie<br /><br /><br /><br />edited for grammar

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>The evil of card doctoring (not referring to anyone in particular) is that unless you are an eyewitness to what goes on in the privacy of a home or office, it is often impossible to "prove". But more things are true than can be proven.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />With all due respect, you are changing the subject. The question is whether or not the owner of a third party grading service is a active dealer?<br /><br />I am waiting for some proof to support the claim...

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Changing the subject?<br /><br />There are a multitude of subjects--that is your subject Charlie.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"Many of us have opinions about this or that but to flippantly make such an egregious charge (or to link to an egregious charge) is aggressive and reckless in a public forum."<br /><br /><br />How is a link in this forum to other statements made in this very same forum considered aggressive and reckless?<br /><br /><br />I am not judging what you are saying - I just don't see it that way - and would like to better understand where you are coming from on that issue.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Charlie I have no idea whether Dave sells cards or not, but hypothetically speaking if someone consigns cards to a few auctions rather than selling directly to people, would that make him a "dealer"?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Again with all due respect, I think the notion that a grading service owner would still be an active dealer would supercede the other subjects. Also, I think it is wrong to float such an opinion without some basis of fact. And a link to an old grudge does not count.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />I think many things have been said on this forum over the years that don't come close to reality...Peter C comes to mind. Further more, I don't think it is proper to use as a source of fact...an opinion stated four years ago regarding a he said...she said grudge.<br /><br />Charlie<br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />In my opinion, a dealer buys things to re-sell in order to make a profit. <br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I can see that point.<br /><br />thanks for the clarification.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Then Charlie, again speaking hypothetically of course, unless auction houses are going to broadcast the identities of their consignors, one could be a dealer without any public footprint.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I agree. There is too much anonymity with auction houses. However, I don't think it is fair to assume that just because the opportunity to be dishonest exists that the person in question is taking advantage of it.<br /><br />I will stipulate to the fact that it would be possible for a person to be deceptive and maintain ownwership and dealer status simultaeously.<br /><br />My point is that I do not believe the owner of SGC is doing that. I also think if someone is going to make such a claim that they should provide some evidence other than a link to a 4 year old beef.<br /><br />That is not a slam against Tom but rather a general statment.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Charlie again I have no idea one way or the other, I am just pointing out the perhaps-obvious point that in this hobby as presently configured lots of opportunity exists to be dishonest whilst being able to say to anyone who makes an accusation, you can't prove it.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I think in most cases in life or business if you cannot prove it then it does not exist or is not true. A person might be able to get away with something hiding behind "prove it" but eventually it will catch up to them.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Charlie, in the hobby "eventually" could be a long time, knowing what I know but cannot prove about certain people to whom things have not caught up yet.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>"Rosetta Stone"<br /><br />Good one, Jeff!

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>I'm still waiting for Moser to answer my questions.<br /><br />Sorry Charlie but your questions do not supercede any others here.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Robert {Bigb13}</b><p><DIV>How can a card with &nbsp;<EM>restoration even get a 9 or a 10? Isn't that tampering? Rob</EM></DIV>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Since I'm somewhat new to vintage card collecting I'm ignorant as to a lot of the histories and backgrounds of the various people involved. Jim and others seem to suggest that Gary is/was a pretty big player in the business. A number of others emailed me and informed me that Gary is a very well known doctor. I think Frank is a doctor as well -- do they know each other from medicine?

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>“Speaking of thousands of dollars made, you sold me a large number of high-grade GAI 1955 Bowman baseball cards that were independently verified later as having been trimmed, re-glossed, or a combination of both. Are you planning on letting us all in on the secrets as to how you managed to perpetrate these alterations and get them past a professional grading company?”<br /><br />Mark: your mistake--GAI isn’t a professional grading company.<br /><br />“substitute Joe Orlando for Forman and PSA for SGC, we'd be over 300 posts by now, with every conspiritorial theory from Joe Orlando being linked to the Khmer Rouge and the rumor that the first PSA slabs were made from human skulls.”<br /><br />Paul: funny you mention it, I always did think JO had a bit of Pol Pot to him; maybe it’s all the posters at CU that disappear when they criticize the regime.<br /><br />As for the rest of this post, it ticks me off to see rumors and accusations parroted as fact, about anyone (well, almost anyone--rumors about Leon are ok <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ). There is a lot of talk in this thread about Dave Forman and Teletrade having some nefarious links. I don't know whether any of it is true. What I do know is that there are resources available to everyone if anyone wants to substantiate those allegations. The company is still active, headquartered in Irvine, CA. It also has a web site teletrade.com. Teletrade in turn is owned by Escala Group (escalagroup.com; Pink Sheets listing ESCL), which owns a bunch of collectibles companies. According to that company’s web site, which links to its SEC filings as far back as 1996, it was formerly known as Greg Manning Auctions, Inc., also a public company (“GMAI”). GMAI acquired Teletrade in 1998. At the time it was a diamond selling company. As many of you know, public companies have to file all sorts of disclosures with the SEC, including disclosures of who runs them and who owns more than a certain amount of their stock. So, my challenge to everyone throwing around allegations that Dave Forman had a past with Teletrade is: prove it. Show us the SEC filings from GMAI or ESCL that list Dave as an officer or director or shareholder. Let's see some facts to back up the rumors. <br /><br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Teletrade was not always owned by a publicly traded company. Further, what is the damage to Dave Forman's reputation if he had been running it for a period of time? As a dealer he is not permitted to run an internet auction company? Not sure Teletrade and Forman's relationship are any of the issues here.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I also received a number of emails about certain people's past history in the hobby. A lot of people in this hobby in high positions of trust seem to have a history of not being so trustworthy. Much of this hobby takes a leap of faith - Game used memorabilia and autographs are at the top of the list....now I think we can add high grade cards in ANY holder to that list as well.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Why do any of us stay in this hobby? Sheesh.

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Posted By: <b>T.Ferg</b><p>I've just begun with the graded stuff, I may just stay raw. This sounds like old wash women talking gossip over the back yard fence.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Frank Evanov is a medical doctor who if he knew you needed one graded card to finish a set would give it to you--not sell give it to you. He<br />is a terrific guy who got his greatest enjoyment from helping others. Frank Evanov is in the latter stages of selling off his graded card collection which consisted in part of top ranked 1957 Topps set and the finest Mantle collection in the hobby. <br /><br />I hope Frank will not be mad at me for disclosing contents of a private e-mail but essentially he sighted activities of certain high profile auction houses band a prominent grading company as reasons...."lots of stuff going on and noone will talk about it....your attempts to open doors have been met by silence or by derision by other collectors who are living in a fantasy world"<br /><br />Sorry Frank--will miss you in the graded card world--hope you can stay active in the hobby. <br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Yup--Yesterday's bad guys are now today's good guys--lot of irony in the whole thing.<br /><br />jim

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I just want to say that I have an open mind and that I truly think people can change. I have a hard time keeping opinions to myself and I don't want anyone in this forum to think I am passing judgment...while I have been regaled with tales of certain activities by people mentioned in this thread I have no proof that they either did this or continue to do this.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> Frank Evanov is a medical doctor who if he knew you needed one graded card to finish a set would give it to you--not sell give it to you<br /><br /><br /><br />Yup<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>It may not be bad having a bad guy turning good and be in the grading biz..at least they know what to look for in detecting altered cards from first hand experience in creating them. BTW I am just making a comment and not saying anyone was or is a former or current card tamperer...

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Posted By: <b>Chris Nerat</b><p>Hey guys,<br />I was wondering if anyone has James Haas' phone number.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />any help would be great!

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Chris, call GAI to find Haas -- though wait until Monday when they re-open.<br /><br />Frank is a great guy and I'm sad not to see him around these parts since Gary -- also a doctor apparently -- promised to make a house call to Frank. What areas of medicine do Frank and Gary specialize in?

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Jeff, OOPS,uh....I mean, "Anonymous", thanks for the belly laugh.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, Bob, that Anonymous is a real smartass. I guess he doesn't want a housecall from the good doctor.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>I just hope nobody's family gets a delivery of a fish wrapped in the New England Journal of Medicine.

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Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>Funny stuff, Bob. Golf clap.

Your wait is over Charlie.

I just wanted to bump this thread because it's relevant to what is going on today and provides some background for what is being discussed in a few other threads.

Dan good memory. Too bad some of those folks don't post anymore they had interesting things to say -- Frank E., Jim C., Charlie B. -- times change I guess.