"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce- there was a well known case of several art dealers who conspired to keep down the price of paintings in the major auction houses, and I believe they were arrested. I don't have all the details but it is illegal. If something is worth $1000 and you and I each agree it's worth that, but by arrangement we conspire to keep the price down and one of us gets it for $500, I'm pretty sure that is legally defined as fraud.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>What if the we is just a me?

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>I wouldn't call it a collusion of bidders if they agree to back off on certain cards for each other. There are quite a few collectors out there that are on limited budgets and WE just don't have the resources to beat each other up. <br /><br />We'll call three collectors the little minnows. If minnow A, B and C decide to bid on certain items (and not others) in an effort to more easily enhance there collections then so be it. It's a co-op of sorts. <br /><br />I'll clue you in on something, even if minnow A, B and C co-op the bidding there will always be a guppy or two to take their place. It never fails. In ebay the minnows can watch each other. In the auction house auctions this isn't really possible so you could have a minnow that turns into a cannablistic minnow eating dirt bag that breaks their word. Something else to consider, what exactly is it when we start threads wanting to split lots in these auctions? <br /><br />One more thing - I have faith in most auction houses and I like to believe that they don't shill their auctions. Once caught and that's the end of any trust collectors will have for that house. People have long memories. I have heard of consigners having friends bid up their auctions. That is something that the auction house really can't easily detect and prove.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Bruce just because you can't believe it isn't so does not mean i am not right.<br /><br />Ask the lawyers around here.<br /><br />I made it clear that both parties had to have an interest in the item and then decided which to bid on. It is a lil different then 'just calling up a friend and seeing if he has an interest, but then again that is not what you said originally. <br /><br />Jeff, Josh, Peter will all tell you. <br /><br />Jeff, yes I know the sellers are just as bad (if not worse) however i was always told that 2 wrongs do not make a right.<br /><br />So to those that feel it is ok you should have no problem with people deciding which items they will bid on in your auctions? Or how much they intend to pay for any given item?<br /><br />Steve

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />Wow! What a great question! The ramifications of the follow up are far reaching. <br /><br />If Bruce bids on an auction, as a "we", can he get in a bidding war with himself? If he bids as an individual, can he be accused of collusion and fraud for holding the bidding down? <br /><br />He's screwed either way.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bruce- to continue my argument, what if you were the consignor of those lots and you were sitting in the audience watching dealers make secret arrangements not to go head to head? And what if you felt your stuff wasn't doing well as a result? Wouldn't you be pissed?.<br /><br />Auctioneers shilling bids, and bidders making deals to keep prices down, are doing exactly the same thing. They are equal transgressions. I'm not sticking up for crooked auction houses, just saying it goes both ways.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Ditto to what Barry stated.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>We're not even sure if there is an ethical issue here. People across the<br />United States and the world, for that matter, will agree not to bid in<br />exchange for some form of quid pro quo in order to lower their price.<br /><br /><br />Wow, that scares me. <br /><br />

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Again, what is it when people bid as a group? That could take two or three bidders out of action. We do it right here on N54 all the time. <br /><br />Barry, not to put you on the spot but, how do you feel when you see those posts regarding groups bidding on lots to get a price break? You don't have to answer that (obviously). I'd like to see how Seinfeld would spin this... "well, if he doesn't answer.... WHAT DOES thaaat mean?" Sorry Barry, I'm just having a little fun with that.<br /><br />Maybe I'll check out some of those older posts to see if anybody here that doesn't agree with group bids have posted in those older threads advocating group bids.<br /><br /><br /><br />

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />To (perhaps) make you feel better, I immediately notified the seller(who is a hobby friend of mine) and told him what had happened. He was resigned about it and said what can I do--it was clear he just wanted to sweep it under the rug.<br /><br />Jim

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"Jeff, yes I know the sellers are just as bad (if not worse) however i was always told that 2 wrongs do not make a right."<br /><br />Steve, comeon, give me a break. Two wrongs? How about 1000 wrongs and an FBI investigation?<br />

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>The title of this thread should be changed to <br /><br /><br /><br />I can't believe what he just said.."<br /><br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Jim<br /><br />I am not here to feel good or bad over this matter, I am just giving my opinion. People can do what they want.<br /><br /><br />Jeff you lost me, I'm not Duke or Harvard , just NYMA.<br /><br /><br />Steve

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Fred, <br /><br />Actually, that has the potential to go both ways. 5-6 individuals may not have the resources to bid as individuals, but as a group may be able to add bids to the auction. <br /><br />Now, with only two individuals, and one agreeing to drop out... that starts to step over the line.<br /><br />But I have to admit, I have done it myself. I just never thought of it quite that way until now.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Fred- I used to partner up with those groups, but after giving the matter some thought I decided I would no longer participate.<br /><br />It's a tricky issue. In many cases if a 30 card E94 set is up for sale, it's reasonable that six different collectors might need only a handful of cards each, so splitting the set among them is a logical thing to do. Everyone can get a few cards, and all are happy.<br /><br />But the one person who may not be happy is the consignor. Often I've heard consignors tell me their sets did rather poorly, even though they were given to a major auction house. And it's usually because those six guys agreed not to compete. So it's a bit of a gray area; in the end the consignor loses money, but I also understand the argument that most collectors can't afford the whole set, and this would be their only chance to walk away with a few nice cards.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- we said the same thing at the same minute. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I can't believe it's not butter.

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>While I am no lawyer, I would think buying as a group (with one person doing the bidding for said group) would not violate restraint of trade and anti trust laws that 2 or more people colluding does. With that said we are now done with this.<br /><br /><br />Steve

"I can't believe what he just paid.."
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Not just PSA 7s, 8s and 9s, tonight Whale #1 dove in to the Zeenut pool and sniped a couple of us minnows <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> Never saw it coming.