|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My memory is still pretty good <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Well, we are consistent.....you have seen just two Graziano's and I have seen only two. And,<br /> there is no way of telling if we saw the same two cards.<br /><br />While the other 49 cards in the 1948 Leaf set are printed on WHITE or GRAY cardboard stock,<br />the Graziano exists only with WHITE cardboard....which tells us he was issued in the very 1st<br />press run and immediately discontinued. The GRAY stock version of this set was printed in the <br />latter press runs.<br /><br />Rocky Graziano was a guest speaker at the 1984 National banquet in Parsippany, NJ. I recall<br /> that he was quite crude, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gave the Leaf Gum Co. a lot of grief;<br />so, they yanked his card. It's a shame, because in 1948, the Tony Zale vs Rocky Graziano con-<br />tests in Chicago were "big events"....and, Leaf was based in Chicago.<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>t206 bl 460's are NOT overrated...they are rare! Tbob...I believe you have an e97 b/w nichols...as I have one also and I was bummed when I saw yours!!!!<br /><br />pete in mn now in st thomas
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>One of the Grazianos (the one I saw in person) resides in the collection of a lurker here. The other one I saw in the news when it sold at auction some years ago. I agree that it was likely pulled over threats of litigation. Graziano was a notorious scrapper over his image and publicity. Should have married Heddy Lamarr <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />As far as pulling multiples of a player from a pack, best I can do is a 1981 Donruss pack that had several Pete Rose cards in it. Pulled that one in 1981. I think I'd rather have the Williams pack...
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I know of the one that you referred to that was in the auction some years back. Don Flanagan (NJ)<br />showed it to me at the Philly Show.<br /><br />So, we have one in common.....then that makes it 3 - Graziano's between us that we know of.<br /><br />That's not too many cards in the combined 50+ years of collecting between the two of us.<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Hedley.......
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Mastro auctioned a Leaf Graziano several years back, PSA graded. If you can find the right catalog, it has a big picture of the card-- whole page for the lot description. Auction was about 2000 or 2001.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Earlier in the thread it was discussed that the Hoblitzell "No Stats on Back" Variation isnt as tough as many other cards. Well there's one for sale in the current mastro auction and the following is from their description:<br />"In fact, the item is not only the scarcest card in its set, it's one of the most sought-after of all tobacco cards from the period. Advanced collectors generally agree that even the famed T206 White Border rarities depicting Wagner, Plank and Magie exist in appreciably greater numbers than this Hoblitzell."<br /><br />Anyone agree that Hoblitzell no stats is scarcer then the Wagner T206!?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>One of the hobbies myths is that the Kleinow (Boston) catching T206 is the rarer of the two T206 Kleinow catching poses. I would be willing to bet that I see 3-4 times as many of the Boston card as the New York version.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171340518.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171340583.JPG"> <br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Pete- You're right, my other one is the Nichols and yours is the only other one I have ever seen or heard of.<br />Joann- That Rossman of yours is the only one I have ever seen and I kick myself for waiting a day to decide whether or not to buy it from Frank W. on his webpage because when I went to buy it, it had just been sold. <br />Bob
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>guys...you say the kleinow is over rated and demmitt & o'hara are over rated, and that there are a lot that come up for auction...it is because they are in steady "re-circulation", many of these rare examples are being traded (bought/traded/sold) and are higher demand then their easier counterparts...
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Similar to Patrick contention, I see quite a few of the Frank Smith<br />Chicago and Boston T206s.<br />I remember quite a long while ago, Scot R. mentioned ,in his scarcity ordering ,that traditionalists insist on the scarcity of the Kleinow Boston<br />and Smith Chicago and Boston. It seemed obviously to me that Scot was <br />putting himself in a different camp. I agree with Scot.<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>well, all i know is that i have been looking for a nice condition smith, kleinow, lundgren, etc (i have owned them in lower grades), but they are tuff to find in general, let alone in mid-high grade...i was looking for demmitts & o'haras for years (of course i would see them pop up every now and then), but not in the best shape.<br /><br />with the internet age, you can bring any card, no matter how rare, to the market...during the years i was collecting prior to the internet, you had to search high & low for many of these rarities mentioned here, now you see them often because collectors who have them can bring them market easier...<br /><br />p.s. furthermore, they are ALL still commanding outrageous prices...so it can't just be a fluke
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dylan- first off, the catalog description of the Hoblitzell no stats is just marketing hype. But regardless of just how objectively rare it is, one seems to appear in virtually every major auction. That doesn't fit my definition of a rare card.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Other than the "big 4", certain cards in the T206 set are very simply tough because they were not printed with<br /> as many Tobacco brands as most of the cards were, or did not appear in as many Series....and, these are....<br /> <br />Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis versions)....only with Polar Bear backs<br /><br />Donlin (hand on knees)....150-only Series with only Piedmont or Sweet Cap.<br /><br />Larry Doyle (throw)....Virtually a 150-only card with a seldom seen Piedmont 350 back <br /><br />Elberfeld (port-Wash.)....350-only Series with just Piedmont, Sweet Cap, and Old Mill<br /><br />Kleinow (catch-Boston)....460-only Series with no Sovereign brand<br /><br />Lundgren (Cubs)....150/350 Series with only Piedmont or EPDG backs<br /><br />Smith (Chi & Bost)....460-only Series with no Sovereign brand<br /><br />All 48 Southern Lgrs....printed only with Old Mill, Piedmont 350 backs<br />....and only 37 of these with with Hindu backs<br /><br />There are others, but these certainly rank as "higher level tough cards" in this set.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /> <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Informative list, there, Ted...<br /><br />Could you go a bit further with it, to Reulbach with glove?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Ted- thanks for helping illustrate my point...<br /><br />i was recently outbid on a Lungren PSA 5, it went for over $1200!<br /><br />here is a list i have posted in the past...cards which were issued ONLY in the 150 series (thus being tuffer)...<br /><br />wagner (obviously)<br />g. brown, chi<br />m. brown, cubs<br />burch, bat<br />donlin, knees<br />evers, cubs<br />pattee<br />pelty<br />powers<br />reulbach, glove<br /><br />this list can be found in lew lipset's book.<br /><br />then there are cards which exhibit team designation changes (which were short printed or only offered with certain brands, see Ted's list too)...<br /><br />demmitt <br />o'hara<br />elberfeld, wash<br />dahlen, bk<br />g. brown, wash<br />f. smith, chi & bos<br />lundgren, chi<br />kleinow, bos
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Sorry to repeat your info, but I was typing my post and in the meantime you posted your list.<br /><br />TED Z<br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Reulbach with glove is one of the 11 cards that are in the 150-only Series, and they are.....<br /><br />G. Brown (Chicago)<br />M. Brown (Cubs)<br />Burch (batting)<br />Donlin (hands/knees)<br />Evers (bat-blue sky)<br />Magie (Piedmont 150 only)<br />Pattee<br />Pelty (horiz)<br />Powers<br />Reulbach (glove)<br />Honus Wagner<br /><br />and there are 3 more possible 150-only cards which current surveys have not confirmed<br />with 350 backs.....<br /><br />Ames (hands/chest)<br />Ewing<br />Schulte (Cubs)<br /><br />TED Z <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>no sweat Ted...<br /><br />you are extremely knowledgable in this area, glad to have you on my side on this issue.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Granted that the Kleinow T206 (Boston) may be found in just the 460 series, it is NOT the rarer of the 2 Kleinow catching cards. I have seen 6 examples of the Kleinow (Boston) on ebay at the same time on numerous occasions. <br /><br /><br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Bill K</b><p>What about the E93 blank backs that have come out of the wood lately? How rare are these? Is it true they were hand cut from a sheet? If so how recently? Whoever did cut up the sheet didn't do it very carefully.<br /><br />Sorry about all the questions. I love the E93's and the blank backs are intriguing to me (hence why I recently picked one up).<br /><br />Great thread BTW! Much better than discussing set registries or PSA vs. SCG threads. Very refreshing!<br /><br />Bill<br><br>My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>The last part of this thread has turned very productive for me, with these lists of relative scarcity among the various T206 series...and I am just SO thrilled that those cards listed seem to be disproportionately, my Cubbies. That's just swell, I feel so fortunate... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Honestly, though, thanks for all the info, folks.<br /><br />Incidentally, I recall the story being that Larry pulled 5 Williams out of the 3 card pack.<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p><br />well i have seen many magies come up recently for sale, let alone kleinows, does that mean they are not rare? NO. <br /><br />the cards which are rarer are more desirable, thus get traded more often than regular commons...so any given day you might see a lot more rarities then you would expect, but it doesn't mean they are super plentiful, these are the cards that people want, and the owners are trading them more often, because they are more desirable.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>PATRICK<br /><br />Mike just stated a good argument for why Kleinow (Boston) appears to be more available than it's NY version.<br /><br />Ebayer's are more interested in selling the higher priced Boston card....than the NY card, which is considered<br />a common. It simply boils down to a $200 card vs a $50 card (for = conditions).<br /><br />But, let's look at what recent surveys tell us (not POP reports).....<br /><br />Kleinow (NY) is a 350-only card and besides being available with Piedmont, Sweet Cap and Sovereign....<br />it can be found with Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi.<br /><br />Kleinow (Boston) is a 460-only card and is found with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi.<br /> It rarely is found with Cycle 460, Lenox and is NOT found with Sovereign 460. Also, a very rare Broad Leaf 460 <br />or a Red Hindu are possible.<br /><br />However, although the Boston card is available with more T-brands, you have to temper that with the fact<br />that the 460 series cards were not printed as much as the 350 Series cards.<br /><br />So, what we have here is a DRAW.....between the availability of these two Kleinow's (in their catching pose).<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Bill K,<br />To my knowledge there is only one example of each of the E93 blank backs. They surfaced from the same source as the two sets of E93 uncut sheets (in panels) that were auctioned by Mastro last year. I believe there were 19 total (one of each of 19 different fronts). I have never heard of any other blank back E93s. I think they have been underappreciated to this point.<br />JimB
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>Kleinow (Boston) is a 460-only card and is found with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi.<br />It rarely is found with Cycle 460, Lenox and is NOT found with Sovereign 460. Also, a very rare Broad Leaf 460 or a Red Hindu are possible.<br /><br />===<br />A broadleaf 460 Kleinow (Boston) came up a few months back. <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Ted:<br /><br />I certainly respect your veteran opinion and expertise regarding the T206 set. My personal observation regarding the Kleinow cards comes from doing a "daily search" since early 1991 when I started searching ebay. Kleinow is one of 7 catchers that I collect. Over that period of time, for every Kleinow (N.Y.) catching card I seen, I seen, at least, 4 to 5 times as many Kleinow (Boston)cards. The argument made previously about why the Boston card shows up so frequently doesn't hold up for me. Just my humble opinion.<br /><br />Patrick<br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>To paraphrase you said:<br /><br />"2. Sorry Leon, Back types - I really think the market for these will be very thin going forward, especially if the average collector becomes less of an intense hobbyist and more a casual enjoyer of the hobby. I mean, you have to be a pretty intense collector for a back designation of "Herpolsheimer" to decide if you like a card or not..."<br /><br /><br />Wow.....you really haven't been watching ebay lately have you? If it's any indicator of the market for the "back" collecting, it's going through the roof...maybe more so than other areas ....Email me privately if you need some specific examples, currently. I am glad I overpaid several years ago for the ones I have today....BTW, the last 2 Red backed crofts have gone for over $3500 each...and were commons...regular black backed ones are in the $200-$300 range...I am not speaking of those as to current ebay stuff though.......best regards...<br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>having been a type/backs collector most of my life I agree with Leon...the best is yet to come as far as valuations are concerned. Many of these rare backs are extremely difficult to find and when you do...they're not cheap...due to many difficult back types...these will only continue to increase in desirability and values...in my opinion.<br /><br />pete in mn
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Yes i agree. Rare backs are going crazy. It is really hard to define rare. As i guess it depends on demand. t207 a mainstream set has 2 very rare examples lewis no emblem and red cross back. Less than 10 of each known. Can that be said for any card in t205 or t206? Demand and hype create over or underated cards. 49 leaf graziano is rare as are n167 in boxing.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You certainly have more experience than me when it comes to Kleinow cards and I don't want to argue<br />with you on NY vs Boston. I presented the data I know of; and, my experience with these T206 cards.<br /><br />Since 1981 I've put together 3 sets of T206 cards and I'm currently working on a Sovereign-Only set.<br />In this set I had no problem acquiring Kleinow (NY) and I have discovered that I wont have to search<br />for his Boston card ....because it was not printed with a SOV 460 back.<br /><br />Really, in the prior 3 sets I never had any problems finding either of the Kleinow catching poses.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />So what are you going to do with your stash of T-206 cards. Are you planning to leave them to a museum or just sell them through E-Bay. Better yet would you leave them to your kids. <br /><br />Peter
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I sold my 1st set of 521 cards.<br /><br />Broke up my 2nd set to put together an "all-Piedmont" set.<br /><br />Still have that one. I' now 3/4 of the complete to an all-Sovereign set.<br /><br />My Grandson Ron will eventually have these sets.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /> <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since I have never collected cabinets I don't have an Old Mill. They are truly rare and I am sure some day I might get one. I know at least a few board members have 1-2.....take care
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Talking about "rare'....these are the "rarest". These "T3 type" cabinet cards were enlargements of the T210<br /> cards. They were issued in 1910 and I think there are only 29 cards in this set.<br /><br />Unlike the T3's....they are just B/W pictures and are probably the rarest 20th Century issue of its kind.<br /><br />I have had Doyle and Revelle from this set and Barry Sloate has only seen two of these OM Cabinet cards.<br /><br />LEON<br /><br />Do you have a type card from this seldom seen set ?<br /><br />T-Rex TED
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Over the past year, 2 catcher pose Old Mill Cabinets have surfaced in two separate auctions within a couple of months of each other. <br /><br />Here are the scans of the only 2 catchers that I seen in the set so far. I have also included my T210 Laughlin to contrast the sets.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171404821.JPG"><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171404851.JPG"> <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171404947.JPG"> <br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Its all about the back!!! Take just the E cards. So many share the same poses and even checklists. Value is directly related to rarity. I look at each back advertisement as being its own set within a set, and many others feel the same way. I think people will only further appreciate back rarity and pay even more attention to it.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>FYI...just for the nay-sayers out there, a PSA 5 T206 Kleinow, Boston sold tonight for $500+ (about 4-5 times what a common 5 goes for)...
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Merely stating my own hunch...<br />Backs haven't exactly been hot until the last few years, and I just don't feel the market is that deep for specific back rarities...shake a few of those collectors out of the tree and I think the boughs would be fairly bare.<br /><br />It was just my humble opinion, and the topic was asking over-rated not an evaluation of what is truly scarce or rare.<br /><br />Still, all in good fun and the best to all back lovers.<br /><br />Daniel
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Over-rated Top 3 Champ<br /><br />1. T206 Wagner<br />2. T206 Wagner<br />3. T206 Wagner<br /><br /><br />m.
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:38 PM. |