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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Rather than a trade group or code of conduct, simply create something like the better business bureau where people can report their problems. Its self-policing.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Peter:<br /><br />Figuring out an acceptable set of standards for the entire hobby will be easy. All we need to do is get the board together in one place at the same time, to hash it out. Once they're all together, it should come together with no problems.<br /><br />Perhaps this should be done over dinner.<br /><br />Anyone like to suggest a date and location?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Well, there could be a rough round table discussion at the reading show???? Just a thought…<br /><br />I'm in Philadelphia, and in New York twice a month on avg.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />You and I live close-by so lets say Morris County NJ--<br /><br />If there is anyone who lives in the NY/NJ/PA area that is interested in this please let us know.<br /><br />JIm

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>If you go back and look at about 5-10 different posts on this forum dating back about 4 years, you will see that I was pretty much the only person to espouse the idea of a collectors association that self polices what is going on in the hobby. Each and every time I brought it up, it was met with resistance and people treated the idea like it was a pipe dream. I am not caiming I invented the idea as other hobbies and even this one have or did have organizations before I was born, but I have been baffled that the Sports Collectibles Hobby does not have one since all these forgeries and repro cards have come out of the woodwork in the last 5 or so years. I first started thinking about this idea with my brother Rhett because we both collect other things and almost every hobby besides cards has a functioning association that WORKS. <br /><br />Having said the above comments and having given this idea a lot of thought for the last 5+ years, I think the way this is being brought about is wrong and as a result it will not work. Anytime you go about anything with an Inquisitional or forced perspective you drive more people away than bring them in. The Network 54 board did not become popular overnight, it grew because people WANTED to come here. You have to attract people to an organization willfully or it will die. If you try and force responses from people and force membership than the day to day activities of this membership will all be out of a feeling of forced ethical duty and not genuine concern.<br /><br />If you started a collectors association on a small level and waited for membership to grow, people to see it work on a small scale, people would have FUN while being a member of it and Auction Houses and dealers will be forced to recognize it the same way they were forced to recognize this board. If someone had started a thread like all the ones on the board now 5 years ago, not a single person would have come on here. That is the power of an organization with willfull members and a strong base. You will have neither with the current appraoch.<br /><br /><br />We already have a strong base on this board. We already have a moderator who cares about the hobby, and lots and lots of members who enjoy the hobby tremendously. You will NEVER be able to recruit a stronger base than the one that already exists. Setting a code of ethics within ourselves as a group of Network 54 collectors would be a great place to start. The board could start by setting an ethical base without any inquisitions. If an auction house or dealer does something against those ethics, they would be punished through decreased business from board members or loss of priviledges on the BST threads, advertising etc. until it acknowledges and it fixes the problem. There are all sorts of avenues that could be looked into to set up a fuinctioning organization that people WANT to join and clean up the hobby at the same time.<br /><br />Just a few comments from someone who has given this a lot of thought.<br /><br />Rhys Yeakley

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Josh, good thought but essentially we have that here. People can report their problems and do; the next step is how do you enforce or investigate these complaints, then what actions are then taken?<br /><br />It’s really a question of accountability unless there are real repercussions for nefarious actions taken by dealers/card doctors or anyone else for that manner abusing the system. The you don’t have much more than an organized word of mouth club. IMO.<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>John- according to the guidelines you posted anyone who would be chosen to oversee the industry could not have any affiliation with it due to potential conflict of interest. That unfortunately would include all of us. We each have developed relationships over the years with collectors and dealers, and there might be a bias if your favorite dealer was under suspicion and you were chosen to look into his business more carefully. So you would need a group who have no connection to the hobby whatsoever; thus, they would have to be noncollectors. How are we going to find people from the outside unless they are paid substantial salaries? Collectors may be willing to volunteer their services for the betterment of the industry, but impartial third parties would not.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[Figuring out an acceptable set of standards for the entire hobby will be easy.]<br /><br />Isn't it obvious that we do not have a consensus? Take erasing pencil marks and soaking glue of the backs of cards -- many of us, including the major grading companies -- think this is acceptable practice, while Jim and John(Wonka) disagree.<br /><br />If you are going to set standards, you ought to have minority opinion representation on your Board.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>Fuzz<br />Veteran<br /><br />This was posted on the CU chat board~<br /><br /><br /><br />Send user a private message View thread in raw text format <br /><br />A number of years ago, I bought a very desirable pack from one of the guys who later turned out to be a GAI grader. This was obviously well before GAI was established and PSA was a mere pup. The price was extra right so I picked it up. I paid less than the going rate for the wrapper and had bought it with intent to open. I suspected it was a reseal based on prior dealings with this person.<br />Sure enough, when it arrived it was laughable. It was a whole piece of gum vintage 1979 based on the dimensions. Thumb print in the wax, etc. I opened it and there was a single card (as expected) with heavily rounded corners and multiple deep creases though the card. The wrapper showed no effects of corner wear or being foled and the gum was whole. Clearly this was fake. He knew it and I knewit. If you hire a person with this kind of ethics, you probably shouldn't be surprised by what you get.<br />But in defense of the rest these guys, there are a few resealing artists that are incredible. Knowing for sure I believe to be impossible. I hope that PSA does not suffer in their reputation from making this choice to authenticate packs. I believe that some mistakes will be unaviodable. This was a driving force many years ago why I gave up packs and switched to wrappers and boxes. Best of luck.<br />Fuzz<br /><br />BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />new chat board Elclods moderates has 42 posts!<br />31 of them are from Elkins himself-no job and no life!<br />

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Barry, you are correct there is a problem there. My above guidelines were showing what is the norm when these kind of firms are put in place. You will also notice that in my reply to Jim that it doesn’t have to be as black and white. <br /><br />I think there is a gray area here but ultimately you have to have some level of impartiality or the system will always be flawed. The trick as you pointed out, as did I, is how do you find that within our little community?<br /><br /><br />Also as for outside parties being paid I clearly outlined how that happens above #1. Once again not saying the above will work, because I clearly stated that I feel it would not. However a mix of the above warped to fit our needs might. Still a lot of work though….

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />Without opening this can of worms again, I have no problem with erasing marks and or removing glue from cards. I don’t view this as altering the card, however I do feel it should be disclosed and should lower the overall value of the item. Grading companies also agree with me hence the MK qualifier and or lowered grade. <br /><br />But you me and the lamppost know that if it cant be detected most people aren’t going to be honest about it. Simply because it does lower the value in most peoples mind, if it didn’t people would boast or be very proud of the restoration work. <br /><br />Also for the record SGC does not endorse it, they simply stated if done correctly it’s almost impossible to detect.<br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>"Regardless of the verdict of juries... no dealer (or auction house) who alters a card... no dealer who undertakes, or promises to alter a card... no dealer who sits in conference with a bunch of crooked dealers and auctioneers, where the ways and means of altering cards are discussed, and does not promptly tell his customer about it...will ever sell baseball cards again."<br /><br />-Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis<br /><br />i know this is a very serious topic...just thought i would have some fun here & put a smile on everyone's face... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Michael Sarno<br />NYC<br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>We're a lot closer on this than I thought. I also have no problem with erasing marks and or removing glue from cards. And like you, I don’t view this as altering the card. While I do not think there is an affirmative "duty to disclose," I agree that it should lower the overall value of the item, if detectable. And also agree that grading companies provide the MK qualifier or a lowered grade if they see evidence of it.<br /><br />Where we part ways, somewhat, is that I view an MK qualifier or lower grade as an endorsement of these practices, unlike, say, trimming or chemical bleaching. If this isn't an endorsement, it is at least remaining neutral on the topic. Again, with my Chance (formerly in PSA 4 MK holder, now in SGC 40 holder -- submitted for crossover without cracking it out), it is obvious both PSA and SGC saw the poorly erased pencil markings on the back. I have several other examples that reflect this practice. <br /><br />In short, the major grading companies currently employ the standard that I endorse. I am also against those that try to alter cards in ways not permitted by the grading companies; especially if those people are trying to get their reworked cards graded by such companies.<br /><br />It appears to me that Jim would prefer to have a policy that erasures and soakings were impermissible and that cards with detectable erasures or soakings should not be graded by the major grading companies or sold at auction without a disclosure of such findings -- basically endorsing an MK qualifier; whereas I prefer that SGC gives you a hit in the grade, rather than a high grade with an MK qualifier.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul, John, Barry and Peter,<br /><br />While I have a certain set of beliefs, I would be a consensus builder on this. If the majority of the committee and for that matter the hobby at large thought taking wrinkles out of cards was okay and that it would never be detectable anyway then I would go along with that. I would certainly passionately state my views to the contrary before that. Reaching a hobby standard requires everyone to comprimise and be able to show some give around their core beliefs.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul and John(Wonka)--where do you guys live?

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I agree, taking out wrinkles is not kosher (can I say that being a gentile?). I’m in the Philadelphia area. Feel free to drop me an email and we will exchange info if you would like to brainstorm on a solution. <br /><br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>where's the photos requested?<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Wouldn't you also get the MK qualifier if you had a card graded that had an ink mark or stamp on the back even if there was no atttempt to erase it? For example, a card that would be VG but it has an initial on the back. That would get a 3 MK, but I may be wrong. Also, asking someone to admit in a sale that they removed a light pencil mark from the back of the card, say a blank backed Old Judge, might be expecting a little too much. I don't think even I would mention that if the erasure were invisible, and I think I am a reasonably ethical person. I think there are things exponentially worse than that going on, such as cards that have been rebacked that now reside in holders (yes, that really exists), so I hope we all agree that a stray pencil mark isn't something we should focus too much attention on.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>John,<br /><br />Could you drive an hour to have dinner on a weekday night?<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>I have nine of the PSA 8 Old Judge cards available<br /><br />can they rival the T-206 commons?<br /><br />under close inspection with the correct eqipment,( I use lab equipment from my jewelry store I sold),they are in no way ALTERED! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> lucky me!<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Brian- if you've examined them under a microscope, they are probably fine. Hope they were given the same rigorous test the first time around.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Barry, good points. I said it should be disclosed, and I know its wishful thinking on my part. Also for the most part the pencil thing is the least offensive IMO, even if you said a small spot was erased, I doubt it would really impact my purchase price on a tough card, on a more common card though it might have an impact. <br /><br />Perfect example, residue/stain removed from this card would bring up its value quite a bit, me I don’t care I'll take all the 2’s that look like this, but in the hands of the wrong guy...<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/websize/Untitled-1%20copy_2.jpg"><br /><br />I would also be upset to find out if I bought this card after it was cleaned for $600 that it was cleaned and resided in a 2 holder prior to being worked, as I think most people would be.<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>John- Actually, a stain like that might not be easily removed and would take a chemical solvent to get off. So do we agree that that is a step beyond erasing a stray pencil mark, or is it exactly the same thing? This is a perfect example where we need to agree on standards of ethics.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Not just a step beyond, but a whole pole vault IMO. I think were on the same page here at least for me that is...

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...for that tape mark -- soaking with water or heating with a hair dryer. I doubt either would do the trick.<br /><br />If you have to add a chemical to the card, and that chemical leaves a residue, then that would be impermissible.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> I'm a Non-Sports card collector. The BS I've read over the last few days is exactly the reason I quit collecting BB cards in the early 90's. I don't want to get into scoping, microscope examining, micrometer measuring, or carbon dating small pieces of cardboard. <br /> Paranoia reigns in the sports field - who did what to what card, how can I stab them in the back, I paid a dollar too much etc.<br /> Have fun guys, I'll stick to my collecting area where the angst & paranoia level is substancially less. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>with all due respect...this is a vintage baseball card forum as the headline says.....have fun with your non sports cards, i'm sure there are sites for that as well

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jerry,<br /><br />I too am Non-Sports collector in fact have way more non-sports than sports. My thoughts on this subject apply to all forms of card collecting. The only difference is for the most part there isn’t as much money to be made tweaking up Non-Sports. But the day there is look out, you may have a slightly different view.<br /><br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>JudgeDred2</b><p>Wonk,<br /><br />That's one of the nicer looking "2s" I've seen. <br /><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br /><br />1)Establishing what is permissable and what is not permissable to do with cards. Which alterations are acceptable and which are not.<br /><font color="red"><b>NOBODY CAN SEEM TO AGREE ON THIS ISSUE. PERHAPS A POLE ON EACH TOPIC BUT I'D CHECK WITH LEON. MAYBE HE COULD SET UP A POLE EVERY WEEK WITH A FEW DIFFERENT QUESTIONS. YOU CAN THEN MAKE USE OF THE DATA.</B></FONT><br /><br />2)Forming a Collectors Association that speaks for the Collector(or should it have representatives from dealers and graders?)<br /><br />3)Coming out with a Code of Ethics for dealers<br /><br />4)Disclosure items for auction houses such as do they own the items or are they consigned.<font color="red"><b>WE DIFFER ON THIS BECAUSE I DON'T CARE IF THE AUCTION HOUSE OWNS MATERIAL OR NOT, IT'S ALL GOING TO BE THE SAME. IF THERE ARE DISHONEST AUCTIONEERS THEN DISCLOSING WHAT'S THEIRS ISN'T GONT TO SOLVE ANYTHING. SOME STUFF JUST SELLS FOR MORE BECAUSE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE REALLY WANT IT. I COULD MAKE A CASE IN POINT BUT I'LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT - IT'S JUST MY OPINION. PERHAPS THIS COULD BE A QUESTION ON AN OPINION POLL</B></FONT><br /><br /><br />5)Establishing a Board of Directors for this collectors advisory association that can set policy with imput from collectors.<br /><br />6)Get commitments from dealers , graders and auction houses on this Code of Ethics. <font color="red"><b>GOOD LUCK ON THIS ONE. I'M PRETTY SURE TAHT A LOT OF DEALERS AND AUCTION HOUSES SEE THIS AS A BBB OF SORTS. THEY MAY NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH GETTTING A SEAL OF APPROVAL WHICH THEY PRETTY MUCH HAVE WITH THEIR CORE BUYERS ALREADY. AGAIN, IT'S A GREAT IDEA BUT GETTING IT OFF THE GOUND WILL BE A CHALLENGE.</B></FONT><br /><br /><br />7)Award the so-called Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval(Jay Miller's idea) to dealers, graders, auction houses who agree to abide by the industry's Code of Ethics<br /><br />8)Dealers can advertise that they are an approved dealer of this Collectors Association or something to that effect.<br /><br />Other steps such as some of the ones that Bruce suggested take time and money and the dedicated time of one or more people.<br /><br />Anyway, I look forward to everyone's comments.<br /><br /><font color="red"><b>THOSE ARE MY COMMENTS. I THINK THE TOPIC IS EYE OPENING AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S WORTH READING BUT IN THE FUTURE I'D TRY DOING IT IN A MORE CONTROLLED FORMAT WHERE PEOPLE CAN'T SHRED THE AUCTION AND GRADING COMPANY REPS. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THEIR COMMENTS ARE WELCOME BUT EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION - NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO AGREE WITH WHAT'S WRITTEN SO WHY LET THE BOARD MEMBERS TEAR UP A COMPANY REP FOR VOICING THEIR THOUGHTS. WE COULD DO IT ALL DAY LONG BUT IN THE END THE COMPANY REPS WILL GET TIRED OF BEING BEAT OVER THE HEAD. AGAIN, AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, I APPLAUD DOUG ALLEN, STEVE VERKMAN, BARRY AND ANY OTHER COMPANY REP THAT RESPONDED. TO ME THIS WASN'T THE INQUISITION, SALEM WITCH HUNTS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, IT WAS JIM TRYING TO GET SOME ANSWERS TO A FEW QUESTIONS THAT I'M SURE A FEW OF US WONDER ABOUT.</B></FONT><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JudgeDred,<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I will take your constructive criticism in the friendly spitrit that it was given.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Jim, I certainly applaud and support your efforts here. I think Peter's point about disclosure has merit also. <br /><br />I saw an ad on TV yesterday for a diamond sale at Macy's Department Store here in NY. At the bottom of the screen, in small print, it was noted that some of the diamonds in the sale had restorative work done by Macy's to improve their quality. That's important info for the consumer.<br />Information that we, as collectors, deserve to have in our venues as well. <br /><br /> <br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>Another function that might be performed by a collectors' association is education. (Sorry if previously mentioned.) So, for example, if the Association is to issue a certification (Seal of Approval) to dealers, auction houses and graders, it might require as a prerequisite that they complete a course on ethics generally, as well as on the specifics of the adopted Code of Conduct. The course could be offered by the Association at the National and/or on the internet. And, depending on how ambitious the Association, some version of the course could be offered as well to the public/collectors generally, again perhaps at the National. Mark

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If ya'll want to throw out some poll questions we can make them happen in a poll at the top......maybe a week or two at a time. IF someone wants to collect the data then we can be off and running...any volunteers....and questions for the poll please?? Or better idea's....

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Can we wait a bit?<br /><br />We are going to convene a group(i hope) and undoubtedly we will have questions for this group.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Just let me know when you are ready. I started another thread to show I really want to help but saved it to a word doc and deleted it. Ball is in your court...take care

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Who would have thought a hobby could become so all consuming? Can this be healthy? That sucking sound is the disappearance of fun. It is no wonder that many non-collecting people consider us men/women that are hopelessly trapped in our childhoods. Please Jim, stop embarrassing us! Soon it won't even be possible to hide in a crowd.