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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- very well put, I couldn't have said it better myself. In the spirit of Thanksgiving, regardless of our political affiliation, don't we all really want the same thing? Peace in the world, an end to the war, a little money in the bank, a comfortable life, and a few baseball cards to boot? Then why is this country so divisive? Why does everyone feel that only their way of thinking is right, and that the guy who has a different opinion is just an idiot? I will never figure that out. And Trevor, this is not nearly the worst thread ever. My vote for the worst ever was the dinner in NYC one. That one was in the Twilight Zone.

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Ok Barry I will give you that one for sure!!!! But come on lets give the political agendas the office (bad pun intended) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>To further hijack the thread, a few comments for Bruce.<br /><br />I am pretty much as ultra liberal as it gets, do not consider it an insult, and plan to stay this way. I think your latest post, while I don't agree with it, was well thought out and well presented - at least enough that I can read it and conclude there are different world views.<br /><br />I also note lately that the "we" has been dropped in almost all contexts, except for card transactions. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but I have and I appreciate it - it has to take a conscious effort to do that.<br /><br />Finally, I will completely agree with your post that liberals want to protect the rights of terrorists, card thieves and drug dealers.<br /><br />Yep. Right on. You bet I do. Proudly. I would never condone the ACTIONS of those groups of individuals - the actions are crimes and the people criminals.<br /><br />But as a good American, and as a conscientous (sp?) American, I would absolutely adovocate for their rights to the fairness of the sytem, under the Constitution, and for every other right this country stands for. Advocating for the rights of the unpopular, as well as the popular, is one of the most partriotic things a person can do, in my opinion.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I think it is always important to remember that good people can disagree. As Barry mentioned, most of us have very similar aspirations.<br /><br />I would like to address a couple of points that Bruce directed toward my comments. I will preface this with saying that I have had several very enjoyable conversations with Bruce about baseball cards and have found him to be very friendly, knowledgable, and dedicated to the hobby. I hope our differences of opinion on politics do not interfere with our hobby friendship. <br /><br />However I feel I must address a couple of points he raised in his comments directed towards me.<br /><br /><br />&gt;One final point...Jim Blumenthal is a well respected collector and an internationally<br />&gt;known Tibetan scholar. He should know better than to imply that the US policy<br />&gt;in Iraq is solely responsible for all the terrorists in that country. Jim, yours is<br />&gt;but another example of left wing journalism that distorts the facts.<br /><br />I did not claim or intend to imply that US policy is solely responsible for all the terrorists in Iraq but I do think it is quite fair to claim that US policy has been the largest single factor. Had we not invaded Iraq, they simply would not be there in anywhere near the numbers of terrorists in Iraq that there are today. And many (both Iraqis and foreigners in Iraq) are certainly new to terrorism since our invasion - no doubt enraged by our arrogance.<br /><br />Second, Bruce, you claim that I have distorted facts. Can you be more specific? I do not see a single distortion in anything I have posted. <br /><br />I just heard on the radio today that the UN announced that 3,709 Iraqis were killed in the month of October. That is more than were killed in America on 9/11. I am of the opinion that every needless human death is a tragedy. Having brown skin or being born in the Middle East does not make their deaths any less tragic. They all have mothers and brothers and sisters and friends who mourn their deaths. The needless killing that is a result of US policy is a terrible shame. Yes, I do think US policy has played a major roll in these awful events, but any good scholar knows that things are not as simple as we would like them to be. There are certainly other factors. You are right on that count Bruce.<br /><br />I love this country, but I have been very ashamed of many of the actions it has taken around the world in the past few years.<br /><br />Happy Thanksgiving,<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it." Edward R. Murrow.<br />OK, on with the card discussion.....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, you don't have to be ashamed to be an American. Honest.<br /><br />And why are the lives of Islamic fundamentalists worth the same as American lives when they care so little for theirs that they are willing to blow themselves up with smiles on their faces? And I thought that upon blowing themselves up they end up in heaven to meet up with 72 virgins? And why do you say that their families mourn - normally their families are congratulated after they blow themselves up in the name of Jihad - I've watched videos of their mothers proudly talking about their sons and openly wishing that their other children will blow themselves up in the name of Jihad. I would think that their families would share the same occasional shame that you feel about being an American.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>And furthermore...the 3709 dead Iraqis you refer to are those killed by other Muslims, no? Jim, you claim that these murders "are the result of US policy." I wasn't aware that American troops forced Muslims to blow other Muslims up or torture them to death by the thousands. Interesting that Muslims are more likely to kill Muslims than Americans are to kill Muslims. I feel deep shame for these Muslims that would kill each other in such a needless fashion.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>'Time has come,' the Walrus said, 'To talk of many things: Of shoes and ships and sealing wax.... and baseball cards.<br /><br />Time has come to lock this thread. I wish all a safe Thanksgiving.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>And Joann, please email me.<br /><br />Frank W.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Doug, I am SO glad that the collector got some of his cards back! He must be elated. I can only imagine what it would be like to have a collection that took so long to assemble disappear like that. He must have felt so violated.<br /><br />I can only hope that if something like that happened to me, it would generate the same degree of interest that this thread has. I hadn't checked into this thread for the bulk of the day, but when I logged in this evening and saw all the posts, I immediately scrolled to the bottom to add my response so that I could be quickly counted among the supporters. It's great to see everyone pull together in support of a fellow collector like this. It sort of restores my faith in humanity when people from all walks of life can all pull together in solidarity when we remain focused on a topic of common interest, like baseball cards.<br /><br />Best of luck to him in finding the rest of his cards and catching the bad guys.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jeff,<br />I never said I was ashamed to be an American. I love this country. I said that I was ashamed of some of the actions it has taken around the world in the past few years.<br /><br />Jeff, you cannot honestly believe that because some Muslims are deluded enough to think that they will go to heavan if they blow themselves up that the hundreds of thousands of relatives and friends of dead Iraqis, most of whom were not suicide bombers, are not mourning.<br /><br />The discounting of all lives lost amounts to nothing less than racism. I am not defending the actions of the terrorists or suicide bombers. I have a very hard time understanding where they are coming from and in my quieter moments I find myself developing feelings and prejudices that I wish did not arise in my mind. But to deny that US policy in Iraq has not created the instability which has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people, many just as innocent as those who have died on our soil, is to simply live with blinders on. I wish I could just keep my mouth closed, but....<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JEFF L<br /><br />You are the true voice of reason on this Forum. And, I say that with all the sincerity in me.<br /><br /> Since we got rid of the Sadaam regime the fine people in Israel are certainly living with less<br /> fear from terrorists. Sadaam would give terrorist families 10's of 1000's of dollars if they<br /> offered up their children as suicide bombers to murder innocent Jews. These terrorists<br /> exist in a culture of DEATH !<br /><br />I just came back from visiting the land of my family....Greece. I have been there many times.<br />The Greeks know how to live. They have always enjoyed a vibrant LIFE. And, this is why the<br />Greek culture has survived for 4000 years.<br /><br />The people who desire DEATH will not survive. God put us on this beautiful earth to live our<br /> lives fully and to do so with enthusiasm (a Greek word meaning "with God").<br /><br />Jeff....I would like to meet you some day.....and perhaps you can critique my ongoing T206<br /> surveys, or my Old Cardboard article on the 1949 Leaf BB set.<br /><br />Have a very Happy Thanksgiving.<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, the great majority of Palestinians support jihad and homicide bombing - not just a mere few. The leaders of the Palestnian territories, Syria, Iran and Lebanon (and yes, I consider Hezbollah and Iran/Syria to be the 'leaders' of Lebanon) also support the blowing up of Muslims in the name of Allah. To suggest that a small majority of Muslims in these countries supports suicide bombing is a distortion of fact, period. As for the innocents killed in America and Iraq you should at least appreciate that all of the innocents killed in America and the great majority of the innocents killed in Iraq were done at the hands of Muslims. <br /><br />At some point people need to start taking responsibility for their own actions instead of pointing fingers at any convenient scapegoat. And nations which proudly admit that they favor cultures of death over cultures celebrating life are usually the ones behind the most mayhem in the world I would respectfully suggest.<br /><br />Ted, I had posted my comments on your Leaf article on another thread but I think you were away; I'll send you an email. And thanks for your kind words. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with all that America is still the greatest country in the world, but sadly in the last six years we have gone terribly astray. On the eve of Thanksgiving let us wish peace to everyone in every country on earth and let's hope the war will come to an end and the troops will soon come home. And Ted and I are on the same page, as we share our love for the beautiful country of Greece. I have spent much time there and it is a paradise. Everyone...please have a great Thanksgiving, and good health and happiness to all.

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>As usual Jeff has hit it pretty well.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Jeff,<br />Please do not put words in my mouth. I try to be very precise with my words when discussing topics like this. I said nothing about Iran, Syria, Lebanon, or Palestine. I talked about the grieving families and friends of innocent Iraqis. I agree that there is a very unsettling number of Palestinians who support acts of terror and are committed to disrupting any peace process as was witnessed by 70% of Palestinians voting Hamas into power in their last democratic election. If I were Palestinian, I imagine I would be ashamed of the acts of Palestinian terrorists as well. I not biased in my disappointment in humanity. I find suicide bombers and Abu Grahib torturers both to be dispicable.<br /><br />I would rather not continue this discussion, both because I don't think we will come to agreement and because it has nothing to do with the intent of this forum.<br /><br />Why don't we all pray for peace and have a nice Thanksgiving holiday.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think we should get back to cards. I hope there is peace as much as anyone. I hope these crooks that stole the cards get caught and the cards returned...and last but not least I too hope we all have a very safe, happy Thanksgiving....and with that thought please don't go off topic in this thread anymore. Forewarned is fair warned. best regards

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>By the time us West Coast folks sit down, read the board, and start tracking with these emotionally charged threads, Leon either Locks them or gives them the kiss of death if there are off-topic posts... a real buzz kill. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Not that I really had anything to add.<br /><br /><br><br>________________<br /><br /><a href="http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.audiocomedy.net/soundboards/jacket.shtml</a>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Please make note that I didn't delete or censor anything. I only asked get back on topic....sorry 'bout that. I hate it when cards get in the way of politics <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....

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Posted By: <b>Preece1</b><p>I am sorry, I was looking for the Network 54 Vintage Card Forum. Could someone please let me know where it is located?

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Posted By: <b>Happy Thanksgiving</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1164295137.GIF">