Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>First of all, I am pleased to see at least one of the altered cards posted. I wish we had an "after" back scan too so we could see what had been done to the pencil markings. I also like the idea of a registry of such cards, although it would be of limited utility since the owner would presumably crack it out anyway. Nice effect on the pop reports, by the way; here's a Lajoie that shows as 3 Lajoies in the pop reports. <br /><br />I am not surprised to see a GAI grade higher than the other services. That service is simply not as picky as the others and I think we are starting to see that manifest in pricing. At least that is the case with boxing cards. <br /><br />As much as I hate to defend PSA, if the latest manifestation of the card had crease removals only and is graded on its attributes, I do not see the net grade of 2 as that bad even if the pencil marks are still there. Frankly, a PSA 2 is a pretty ****ty card given that they don't have separate categories for poor and fair. Their standard is: "A PSA Good 2 card's corners show accelerated rounding and surface wear is starting to become obvious. A good card may have scratching, scuffing, light staining, or chipping of enamel on obverse. There may be several creases. Original gloss may be completely absent. Card may show considerable discoloration. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back." That's one roughed up card. I can understand where a good crease removal "operation" might still get the card a 2 if the only other alternative is a 1. The basic problem here is removals versus additions. A well performed crease removal on a card that is a beater anyway is not something I expect a grader to pick up, so I do not fault PSA if that is the only alteration made. If there was rebuilding or recoloring involved, that is something different. That said, it is still a scummy fraud to perpetuate on the public and I am glad REA caught it. I have to wonder when this card will resurface with a lesser auction house in another holder.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I certainly understand the argument against naming names - namely (pun intended) the possibility of legal action as Rob mentioned. <br /><br />However, if you truly want to change the hobby for the better, I have a few comments:<br /><br />First, somebody has to be willing to take that risk - otherwise nothing will change and things will only get worse. <br /><br />Second, if you have the proof, such as your scans, the truth is a defense to any legal action you are likely to face - moreover, if true, I think its highly unlikely that you will be sued at all for naming names as the doctorer in question is not going to want to risk the consequences if he/she loses.<br /><br />Finally, as suggested above, report what you know to the authorities. I believe that as long as your complaint/report is in good faith and not malicious that there is a limited privilege in most states against liability if you report possible criminal conduct and it turns out not to be the case.<br /><br />

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I can't imagine how anyone could safely name names.<br /><br />What is provable is the person who bought the card initially, and the person who owns it now. Who can say who is responsible for what happened to the card inbetween? Rob descibes this card having been submitted four times. Who knows when these things were done to the card? How could you prove that?<br /><br />I can definitely understand why naming names is not an option. Rob's email is definitely a "buyer beware" kind of warning - we need to trust who we're buying from and we need to trust the people who are assessing the card's condition. But most importantly, we need to be very careful when assessing a card for potential purchase.<br /><br />Makes sense to me.<br /><br />-Al

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Isn't it REA which also sent an email to everyone several months ago about allegations (from Bonds himself) about "fake" Bonds GU equipment, yet did not pull the auction?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Al,<br /><br />The way you could prove it with the goudey would be by the submission records and by the purchase records. Hypothethically lets say:<br /><br />Buyer 1 - buys a psa 1 MK (records from REA or Ebay reflect this purchase)<br /><br />Buyer 2 - has records showing he bought a PSA 2 (for example, a printout of the ebay page or notification that he won). Comparison of the marks on the physical card to the scan of the psa 1MK reveal its the same card.<br /><br />It becomes fairly obvious that the alteration occurred between the purchase by buyer 1 and the sale to buyer 2.<br /><br />On the otherhand, if buyer 2's records reflect that he bought a psa 1MK from buyer 1, and buyer 2 still owns the card, then its fairly easily provable that the alteration occured while the card was owned by buyer 2.<br /><br />

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />Robert Lifson has set a standard which the other auctioneers must<br />live up to. If you fail the integrity case, it does not matter how<br />many auctions you hold or how many millions of dollars of<br />cards you sell.<br /><br />One need look no further than what has happened in the<br />coin and stamp business. More than a few "major dealers"<br />have served time with Uncle Sam because they committed<br />fraud. One, a former aide to Al Gore, even commited suicide<br />because he could not escape his evil and fraudlent ways.<br /><br />My view is that anyone who knowingly alters a card and<br />sells it a higher grade is committing a crime. He or she should<br />face the justice sytem. Hopefully, they will be convicted and<br />face hard time at a very tough Federal Institution.<br /><br />I also would urge law enforcement organizations to conduct<br />under cover operations and rid the country and the hobby<br />of these criminals. <br /><br /><br />Bruce

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>What "crime" are they committing again? If it's fraud, I think that's a teneous claim at best. <br />I think the problem here is that after someone alters a card, a third party service, be it PSA, SGC, GAI, etc., has one again certified the card. Maybe it's not easily noticable such as removing wrinkles, but I have a tough time calling it "fraud." What exactly is the misrepresentation? That the card once had wrinkles, a pencil mark, and now it doesn't? <br />I dont' know, seems like a stretch.<br />Flame away!<br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>How many here have specifically asked if a graded card was altered? It seems to me that the only way to get in trouble is if you know it is altered, then someone asks, and then you say "No". By getting it graded, you avoid getting asked the question.<br /><br />It's seems quite simple to me. Getting your own card altered, then getting it graded, is not illegal. And then selling it is not fraud if nobody asks if it was altered.<br /><br />I'm not saying it's right. I specifically stopped collecting expensive baseball cards years ago because I was afraid I could not tell an original from a fake. Now if an "expert" grading service can't either, what can you do?<br /><br />edited to add my name

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>A few questions:<br /><br />1) How does Rob know that the 33 Goudey Lajoie went through so many gradings?<br /><br />2) What truly determines an alteration to a card which would deem the person performing the alteration or knowing they are selling a card which has undergone an "alteration" as having committed a crime? <br /><br />3) Is performing an "alteration" to a card really illegal? Cannot be as much so as a personm selling a graded card which he/she knows has been "altered."<br /><br />4) Assuming the grading companies are great at what they do and cards are passing their scrutiny, where does this leave us? If professional graders cannot tell a card has been altered and we have to go back to prior images to identify a change in the card, what good is grading? <br /><br />Greg

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>With due respect to Bruce, I don't think the problem is going to be resolved by private lawsuits or law enforcement. For one thing, the whole subject matter of what constitutes alteration, as Greg points out, is too subjective. For another thing, even in areas that aren't so gray, noone is going to ADMIT they trimmed or recolored cards or rebuilt corners or took out big ugly creases (looking here for examples of alterations that noone would defend as acceptable), and anyone accused of selling an unacceptably altered card is going to have any number of excuses at his disposal to any charge of intent, including most powerfully that a third party grading service generally accepted in the industry didn't see the problem. Plus there is the added layer of complexity that with the ever increasing prevalence of auction houses, the people doing the best job of doctoring cards aren't the ones selling them.<br />

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>* post deleted because it did not add anything of value to this discussion.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I thought this thread would garner a lot more discussion as this kind of thing--doctoring cards and third party grading--is the 800 pound gorilla. It seems like the sentiment seems to be moving towards an acceptance of pressing and washing but not trimming, or, more generally, any doctoring that can get by a third party grader. One more reason for me to be more convinced that third party graders should be in the business of authenticating and not grading. I can't help to think, more and more, that the grading scale is leading to a bit of madness. It's actually been a long journey for me to come to this point. When I left the hobby, grading hadn't really started yet, and when I came back 2 and a half years ago, it was obviously in full swing. After a couple of years of paying attention here and buying and selling cards myself, I must admit I'm anti-grading scale and pro-authentication. Which, naturally, leaves me in a collecting wilderness. <br /><br />--Chad

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Chad, if you are anti-grading scale, why don't you just ignore the grade on the holder? Isn't it that simple?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Card alteration is not all individual sellers with spoons, card baths and pressing devices. Some of this is done as a business. With salaried professional craftsmen, invoices and letterheads. Check out some of the photographic and other paper restorations being conducted daily by organizations such as the Chicago Conservation Center.<br /><br />Not at all a back alley operation next door to the fake passports, driver licences, etc. business.<br /><br />It is not my intent to take down the grading companies here. But if the challenge is currently greater than it was in the past, then there are increased costs associated with producing a product of the caliber which collectors want to buy. Certainly the end user must absorb the costs associated with a continually expanding state-of-the-art in fraud production.<br /><br />The grading companies simply need to gear up to meet the challenge, once given assurance that the collector will cover the tab. But will the collector do that? Or do we want a continuance of fantasy grading?<br /><br />This just keeps going on. Do we currently have fantasy grading? For how long have the grades shown in holdered cards been questionable?<br /><br />I got to stop here. This can not be our status, correct?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Unfortunately, a lot of people don't, and a lot of these people pay a lot of money for highly graded cards which has created an incentive for doctoring. You can understand how this comes back to collectors like me who really don't care about the numerical grade, no? I'll buy a grade card I want because I'm buying the card and not the holder, but how do I know what's in the holder anymore? And cards get broken out of holders, too. At this point I'd rather have a third party grader spend more of their time and expertise trying to ferret out if a card is authentic and unaltered than if it's a 5 or a 6. <br /><br />--Chad

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've been away for a few days and while Leon apprised me of this email this is the first chance I have had to read this thread. What I find most troubling here is how these cards are getting holdered in the first place. About ten years ago the hobby was in the dumps because too many cards were being altered and too many collectors were finding their prized possessions were not what they were supposed to be. It does not surprise me that the practice of card altering occurs because there is simply too much money to be made selling baseball cards. In order to restore the integrity of the hobby and bring back serious collectors, the birth of the grading and authenticating service came about and it brought new collectors back in droves. Now Rob Lifson states that many of the cards consigned to him in holders have been tampered with, and I certainly don't doubt his assertions. But why on earth have these cards been put in holders in the first place? If Rob is able to detect it, why aren't the grading companies seeing the same thing? The big boys in the grading industry should be setting a standard above and beyond what any of us are capable of finding. If they can't cull out the doctored cards, then the hobby may be heading back to the dark ages and many of the big spenders may once again leave and not come back. This is certainly a very troubling trend.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Is it your interpretation that REA has detection capabilities relating to alterations, that the grading companies do not have (or do not use effectively)?<br /><br />It is unclear to me if that is the case, or if circumstances existed which allowed REA to track the progression of short term grading changes on a rare card.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I don't think it is fair to expect grading companies to track how other grading companies have evaluated particular cards. They make no claim to doing that. But we can expect them to detect alterations to cards since one of their primary functions is to varify that a card is authentic and unaltered.<br />JimB

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>It seems to me REA detected the "altering" because they had before and after scans since they were asked to consign the card both prior to and after the changes. The grading companies usually do not have the same advantage. We need to be realistic with expectations. I can never tell if someone has taken a crease out of a card. Obviously grading companies often cannot determine this either.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Rob may indeed be able to determine if a card has been altered but his email made mention of a specfic card which was sold in his auction in a lower graded holder only to be consigned back to him in a higher holder. He recognized the card, which gave him a huge advantage, and one not afforded any grading company, in determining the card was altered. <br /><br />I would still like to know how he knew the card was graded as many times as it was and what it graded each time.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I understand the grading companies can't be right all of the time the same way that a doctor can not render the right diagnosis every time either. But Rob cites a $10K card, which would put it under every grading company's highest tier. If I am paying $100 to get a card graded, I expect them to spend a significant amount of time examining it and to use every test at their disposal. I know they can't afford that attention with every $50 common but they really need to get the big ticket items right. There is just too much at stake.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Is there enough at stake to pay them extra for the extra scrutiny which is sought?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Probably not, Gil.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I do not believe that creases are removed from a card without a trace, even if that trace can not be detected by close visual observation. I guess that to date close visual observation has been the technique employed by grading companies for evaluation of this potential.<br /><br />Part of me would applaud an unwillingness by the hobby to pay for enhanced grading company scrutiny, because any such action will bring into question all of the important cards which were previously graded.<br /><br />But part of me recognizes that a vote for business as usual will result in just that, with a likely corresponding erosion in the faith of highly graded cards.<br /><br />So what?<br />My vote is to perform an investigation in order to determine if a problem may exist. Choose some important graded cards and determine the adequacy of the holder values.<br />

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I can appreciate that a number of collectors would resent paying the grading services even more money to have their cards examined. However, if you were the consignor that was told by Rob Lifson that his $10,000 card was altered, might you change your opinion? In that situation would you have been willing to pay an extra $50 to find out the card was bad and then simply not purchase it?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p>And It Needs To Tough, Severe and Costly<br /><br />While some wil argue that ultra severe penalities do not deter the evil<br />from committing crimes, I would argue to the contrary.<br /><br />Selling a false painting, restoring rare antique furniture and<br />presenting said piece as an original are crimes punishable<br />by severe fines and jail time.<br /><br />We are far far too liberal in this country in our treatment of<br />criminals. I would like a private funded army of secret shoppers whose<br />express purpose was to go to questionable dealers and card doctors<br />and catch them in their evil acts. The work should be coordinated<br />with the police, secretly video-recorded. Once these crooks<br />are brought to trial we can file briefs supporting the case.<br /><br />We also should blast their pictures in every industry trade publication<br />and web site... they should be treated with the same dignity and<br />respect as rapists, terrorists and child molestors.<br /><br />In fact, I think we should establish a $500,000 reward fun for <br />the arrest, convinction and imprissonment of these sold<br />called card doctors. <br /><br />We can also destroy the business of any auction house which<br />knowingly employs said staff. Auction houses have to be licensed by<br />the state and we can sue to have their license revoked for aiding<br />in the creation of fake material. We can inform all the major insurance<br />companies..they in turn can refuse to insure items sold by these<br />auction houses of ill repute.<br /><br /><br />This problem can inflict grave damage on the hobby and the best way<br />to end the plague is to eradicate it is as quickly as possible.<br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br /><br />America's Toughest Want List<br /><br /><br />

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You said:<br /><br />"We also should blast their pictures in every industry trade publication<br />and web site... they should be treated with the same dignity and<br />respect as rapists, terrorists and child molestors."<br /><br />While I agree we might need to be more harsh on fraud and deceit I think what you just said is crazy. I am going to be more angry if someone hurts my 9yr old daughter, or my wife, or kills someone, than if they take a crease out of a card...(which I have already said I believe there are different levels of)..Did you say that for shock value? I hope so.....good luck....

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>This reminds me of the Patriot Act. It really would have had virtually no effect on folks in planes on 9-11. But it does touch us. It is a "feel good" thing... I'm waiting for a new round of legislation with "Liberty" in its name, how could a fellow be against a Patriot act or Liberty act???<br /><br />At any rate, if you step back and look at this, REA is talking to folks who're up in arms about cards that have been enhanced, to make them feel better. Will REA have liability if they auction a "doctored" card without disclosing it, now that they have this new position???? Not willingly.<br /><br />So it is nothing. REA will respect you in the morning.<br /><br />In my mind, a T206 with flour paste and scrap book paper on its back is altered, and if I soak that stuff off then I've "unaltered" the card. That paste and paper did not become part of the card, as Led Zeppelin said, almost, the card remains the same.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, Leon, I have to agree with you. As a criminal defense lawyer I'm fairly certain that the federal sentencing guidelines will not soon be equating card doctors with muslim fanatics seeking to blow us up (or rapists for that matter). In addition, our country is, in fact, very tough on criminals -- just ask Jeff Skilling who received a 24 year sentence last week. Also, who will fund the 500K rewards?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I like George Carlins philosophy on criminal punishmnet; the punishment should not fit the crime and that death penality is misapplied. Murder is generally a drime of passion and not well thought out. Crimes like Enron, WorldCom, Silverado (for those old enough to remmeber) should get the death penalty. If the death penalty was given to the leaders of thos companies, how much longer do you think white collar crime would go on if you killed off a few excutives who actually have something to live for?<br /><br />I think I got most of that skit right. I haven't heard it in a few years and forget which record it is on.<br /><br />Jay - owns all of Carlin's records and DVDs<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p><br /><br />Gentlemen and Ladies:<br /> <br />I agree with some of the enthusiasm expressed here because as was stated by Brue Dorskind “This problem can inflict grave damage on the hobby …”<br /><br />But what do we know about this problem? Robert Lifson states “We are talking about cards that we know for a fact are problems. The fact that we have to address situations such as this at all suggests a greater underlying problem than is generally recognized. And while it is bad enough that the altering of cards is an epidemic…”<br /><br />Well to me, the term epidemic conveys a situation which is both out of control and causing widespread harm. But Julie Vogner notes “…astonished me:<br /><br />1) the lack of focus on bigh grade cards among the doctorers. If they think you will want it, they will doctor it!”<br /><br />This observation indicates that the focus of doctoring is not primarilly on the more important cards in the hobby nor the highest graded cards. <br /><br />And as has been shared by Leon and others, the collecting of baseball cards should be kept within the overall perspective, in part because law enforcement personnel, media personnel and the general public will weigh the problems within a hobby with other problems which face society.<br /><br />And certainly before we consider involving outsiders, or embarking upon a remedial course, we should establish the extent and nature of the problem. I continue to recommend that we try to determine the percentage of important cards which are in holders that contain a grade higher than the card’s attributes actually dictate.<br /><br />Because right now I have no idea regarding the number of cards actually involved. Some inferences indicate that a very high percentage of cards are affected. But that has not been established.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Rey</b><p>"And certainly before we consider involving outsiders, or embarking upon a remedial course, we should establish the extent and nature of the problem. I continue to recommend that we try to determine the percentage of important cards which are in holders that contain a grade higher than the card’s attributes actually dictate."<br /><br />I agree with Gil here, and we need to establish the universe of cards that we feel should undergo this examination.<br /><br />In the big big picture, the three major grading companies probably collectively get card grades right (within an acceptable variable range of +1 or -1 grade) about 98 percent of the time -- of course that is remembering that the vast majority of the cards they grade are not the kind we really give a damn about.<br /><br />I think we're identifying the problem here that we really care about as encompassing the universe of cards this board considers, "on topic."<br /><br />Until collecting communities like this one make a concerted effort to share the information needed to keep track of this problem, and that also probably involves naming names, sharing or keeping picture databases of what we've bought and sold, and throwing some weight around with the grading companies, this is just a topic that we'll endlessly debate with no ultimate resolution and no braking on the train as it runs down the wrong track.<br /><br />Doing it right may ultimately take more effort and resources than this community can muster, though. And doing it half-assed may be worse than doing it at all.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Equating card doctoring with rape or child molestation? Are you out of your mind? Sell me a doctored card and I might get mad and maybe even sue you, but touch my wife or daughter and they'll have to strain your remains for the fingerprints. <br /><br />It always amuses me that people who live in the silk stocking district and whose closest brush with the criminal justice system is watching "Law and Order" on their HD TV's think that the system is too lenient. Go to your local criminal court and watch sentencing; nevermind felonies, even a misdeameanor session will do. I've sat through several misdeameanor court sessions in Burbank waiting for my clients' civil cases to come up and let me tell you, they HAMMER offenders. And we won't even discuss what would happen to a middle-aged white man in prison...

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I hardly think that Skilling's sentence is harsh and I know (former) Enron employees and those of us in CA who were robbed by those criminals, would agree that it is harsh.<br /><br />As for the more hardened criminals, at least in N CA, most of them are our on probation/parole. Just check out the sex offender database online and you'll see how many of them have done their "time" (or not) and who are trolling our neighborhoods. Sentences are one thing. Actual time served is another.<br /><br />Getting back on topic...I'd like to see the serious felonies addressed before we start taking up jail space with the card doctors. In the meantime, disgorge their profits and split it equally between the MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS of this Board! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The key to identifying professional restoration is to burn the card. If the flame is<br />blue it has restoration solvents. If the flame is yellow, you'll be glad to know you owned<br />an unrestored card. If it doesn't burn it's either a witch or a Sweet Caporal pin.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"if it doesnt burn its a witch . . ."<br /><br />david - I think that is one of the funniest posts Ive read in a long time.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If it burns, then it is a witch because withces are made of wood. Wood floats in water, so all ducks are witches <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>And the final test is ... if it weighs the same as a duck, it's a witch!!<br /><br />(What? The curtains? hee)<br /><br />Joann

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Cobby, Skilling will most likely spend the rest of his life in prison and be stripped of all ill-gotten gains. I'm curious, what would you consider to be a harsher sentence? Castration? Death?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I lost a bundle on Enron out of my IRA, but I am satisfied with the sentence.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>As did I with Worldcom stock. Ebbers also received a sentence that will most likely end with him being taken out of prison in a bag. Same with the head of Adelphia. All of these sentences received were longer than most defendants receive for rape convictions - and sometimes longer than murder sentences. Is fraud worse than rape?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Is it worse to destroy the retirement savings of 10,000 people or to destroy the life of one person?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I hear you. Close call - which is why I suppose courts are finally hammering white collar criminals with blue collar sentences. But I'm still amazed at how society still thinks that white collar guys are getting off these days. It's just not true. In fairness, the prejduice facing a high profile white collar criminal at trial is almost unfair to the point of absurdity. I've had cases in which the juries had their minds made up before openings and it is a bear to turn them around over a period of a month or two. This is simply unfair.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Jeff: Keep in mind you're dealing with someone who spent 2 years at a DA's office in CA- nevertheless, I can respect a good defense attorney's argument.<br /><br />Personally, I'm not an advocate of the death penalty for anyone, so, that sentence is out. Same goes for castration (though I'm not sure that exists in any jurisdiction these days, but don't quote me on that).<br /><br />I wasn't as wronged by this guy as a lot of other people were, so perhaps I can't be as objective as others. But for starters, how about life in prison w/o possibility of parole- and not a country club prison. Yes, prison is prison, but we all know some Federal institutions are rather comfortable, comparatively. As for his ill-gotten gains, I find it hard to believe his family is not still profiting from his criminal mastermind.<br /><br />When you play with that many people's lives and livelihoods, you should pay the price. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time..." How about that acquittal?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The federal sentencing guidelines provide an advisory guide on what judges should mete out to convicted defendants. Skilling received, no doubt, the high end of that adjusted guidelines range. Only killers and huge drug dealers have ranges that can be life without parole in a federal case (keeping in mind that there is no longer 'parole' in a federal sentence). There is no cushy camp for defendants facing that kind of time. Skilling got hammered in large part because of the public's disgust (rightfully so) for massive corporate greed and fraud. I'm not an advocate for Skilling by any means; I think he's a pig and got what he deserved. I also believe in justice for all no matter my personal feelings. A life sentence for Skilling would have been inappropriate; a de facto life sentence is what he ended up getting and is more than enough by anyone's count.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Not by my count. I use the old math:<br />If a guy steals from me, why should I have to pay the freight to feed him, house him and pay medical and all other expenses which he needs for the rest of his life?<br />Unless I get to choose how long the rest of his life is?<br /><br />Id vote that these guys live sufficiently long to become familiar with all of the characteristics of incarceration, then fry them. Afterall, they are not going to return to society anyway, so why drag it out at my cost?

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Not by mine either.<br />Too often, people are scammed by others more fortunate (and devious). Fortunately for me and my family, other than the garden-variety (legal) fraud by lenders, etc., we have not been victims of this.<br />I can only imgaine how the true victims of Skilling (and others) feel and as Gil suggests (again- not a proponent of capital punishment), a de facto life sentence doesn't do his multiple victims any "justice," sentencing "guidelines" aside.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Just curious-how does a de facto life sentence punish the man any less than a real life sentence? Shall we dig him up after he dies and make him do some more time? And if so, how do we deal with the rapists, murderers and terrorists that come through our courts? <br /><br />Edited to add: both Adam and I are victims, respectively, of Skilling and Bernie Ebbers. And we've both told you how we felt. Everytime an MCI cold caller calls me at home to ask me to switch my service, right before I tell them to go F themselves, I ask for the 15K back that Bernie stole from me. That usually leaves them speechless (apparently that eventuality is not on the script).

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Skilling, assuming he spends ALL 24 years behind bars, will be 76 when he's released, assuming he is. I haven't looked at life expectancy tables lately, but presumably, he'll have some time left.<br /><br />As for the serious felons, I think most would admit the CJ system needs an overhaul here as well, but it won't be a productive argument when the premise that "a lot of murderers get out in less than 24, so why should Skilling have to spend more time." Apples and oranges.

Interesting email from REA
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, I can tell you that one's lifestyle does not improve in prison.<br /><br />As for 'apples and oranges', actually, that is exactly why Congress enacted the federal sentencing guidelines-to compare crimes and provide a sliding scale on the severity of the sentences meted out for crimes: the less severe receive less time and the more severe receive more time. Hence, this is the reason why Skilling did not get a life sentence and murderers and major drug kingpins do in federal courts.