Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>So quickly we forget the pursuit of Aaron.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>The greatest hitters, pitchers and sluggers in baseball history are identified by their stats. <br /><br />The .600 club identifies the top sluggers:<br /><br />Ruth .690<br />Williams .634<br />Gehrig .632<br />Foxx .609<br />Greenberg .605<br /><br />The 350 club identifies the rest:<br /><br />Young 511<br />Johnson 417<br />Alexander 373<br />Mathewson 373<br />Cobb .366<br />Galvin 364<br />Spahn 363<br />Nichols 361<br />Hornsby .359<br />Jackson .356<br /><br />Edited to add: In the "what if" dept.<br /><br />If Keeler did not play after his seventh season, he would have retired with a .379 lifetime BA. Similarly, if Heilman did not play his first six seasons he would have retired with a higher lifetime batting average than Cobb.<br /><br />Edited again to neaten up some sloppiness. One must keep his posts tidy.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>He is right there. Big as life. But with a silent H, and a wicked scroogie.<br /><br />Edited to add: Spahn is particularly important in this grouping because he gives credibility to the possibility that modern pitchers can achieve the 350 club. I hope Clemens makes it too. I wonder if we will see a hitter achieve this level of batting. Gwynn and Suzuki make me think it is possible, but the next career .350 hitter is not yet apparent.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Ruth was the greatest player of all time. He could beat you on the mound and at the plate with HOF-caliber play. No one else has ever been able to do that. 714. .342, an RBI record that held up even longer than the HR record, a consecutive scoreless innings streak in the World Series. The man was the most complete ballplayer in history.<br /><br />Anyone who leaves Lefty Grove off their top 5 list of pitchers...I dunno. He led the league in ERA 7 times, won 300 despite having a late start because Baltimore held him for a few years trying to run up his sale value, and has the highest winning % of all time. Also, where is Warren Spahn on a lot of these lists? 363 victories in the modern era. His 1965 Topps card is great because the lifetime stats on the back are eye-popping. <br /><br />Koufax makes a lot of lists because for 5-6 years he was virtually unhittable, as Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, etc. all say. Cumulative stats are sometimes misleading; was Fred McGriff a HOFer? I think many breathed a sigh of relief when he fell short of 500 HR. Would anyone prefer Don Sutton to Sandy Koufax on the mound? <br /><br />As far as Mantle goes, what ifs are fun but still hypotheticals. What if Mantle had been a teetotaler with good knees? He might have blown out a knee anyhow, been killed in combat in Korea, etc. Williams lost prime years to two wars? Maybe. For all we know he might have been hit by a taxi cab and crippled (hey, a Boston cab hit Casey Stengel while he was managing the Braves). Feller might have blown out his elbow in 1942.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Since others are supplying their greatest of all time list here is mine:<br /><br />Hitters: Ruth, Hornsby, Cobb, Gehrig, Williams/DiMaggio (considerations BA and RBI's/year)<br /><br />Pitchers: Clemens, Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Grove (Clemens has highest win percentage ever for pitchers with MORE than 300 wins)

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Mantle is a good what if story, Clemente another, IMO the greatest what if story is Lou Gehrig.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I Didn't See Cobb, Wagner Play, but Did See Mantle<br /><br />Buck O'Neill is a very astute observer of the game and has lived a long time<br />so he has seen a lot of BB players in his life. So, if he says Mantle could<br />have been the greatest, I definitely agree with Buck.<br /><br />Now, I am older than most on this Forum, and I was fortunate to see Mantle<br />play from 1951 to 1969. As, a die-hard Yankee fan I followed his career very<br />closely during my youth. So, I guess you could consider me biased. I also got<br />to see Joe DiMaggio & Ted Williams play. We went to Yankee Stadium a lot back<br />in the late '40s and throughout the '50s. Playing in the American League back<br />then and Yankee Stadium, was not an advantage for Mantle in those years. With<br />the likes of Bob Feller, Lemon, Garcia, Wynn, and Herb Score (and so many more<br />great pitchers in the League), Mantle faced some tough pitching. And its need-<br />less to bring up the huge dimensions of the old Yankee Stadium, as most are<br />aware of its size. Of course it did not matter to Mantle, since he would hit<br />them 500+ feet, anyhow.<br /><br />Yes, he became a "happy go lucky" guy as part of the Yankee "BRAT PACK" with<br />Whitey Ford and Billy Martin. And, we'll never know how this affected his BB<br />playing years. Nevertheless, in a clutch situation during regular season play<br />he raised the level of his game. And, especially effective during World Series<br />play as his numbers testify:<br />....18 HRs (a HR per 7.8 ABs)....Runs = 42....RBIs = 40....in 12 W.S. seasons<br /><br />I'll end this by answering the age old Trivia quiz...."Who was greater....<br />Mickey, Willie, or the Duke ?<br /><br />My answer actually comes back with a question....they were all equally great,<br />However, whose "SHOES" did Willie or the Duke step into ?<br /><br />Mantle stepped into DiMaggio's shoes and most people do not realize how really<br />tough that can be. I still recall how the fans used to boo Mantle his first<br />year with the Yankees. It wasn't till 1952, that the fans started liking him.<br /><br />Think about my answer to this Trivia Quiz....the only other BB player that<br />was able to step into a "legend's shoes" in recent times that I can recall is <br />Carl Yazstremski. <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Also being a NYer thru the 50s my recollection of the Mick differs on a few points. Now I was a Giants fan, so I really didn't much care for the Duke or Mick. Or Yogi and Campy for that matter.<br /><br />But the Mick was an infielder (I thought SS) at first, and although he was fast, his legs were injury prone.<br /><br />And the booing was unmerciful and lasted throughout the 50s. As I recall it, Mantle would repeatedly strike out in the clutch and hit (sometimes tremendous) home runs when it didn't count for much.<br /><br />I believe the Yankee fans would much rather have Berra in there when the chips were down. This guy was a bum, and da Bum, Duke, hit more HRs than anybody in the 50s, and so did Hodges.<br /><br />Between Willie, Mickey and the Duke: the Giants fans had the gem. The other two were good. And Mickey did play heroically with bad legs. But he still woulda choked in the clutch with good legs. With 500+ HRs how many 100 RBI seasons did he have?<br /><br />Edited to add: I also respect O'Neill's opinion. But there is no way that Mantle could fill Joltin' Joe's shoes, anymore than Joe could fill Lou's.<br /><br />Edited further to add: "not an advantage for Mantle in those years. With<br />the likes of Bob Feller, Lemon, Garcia, Wynn, and Herb Score" - weren't the Indians used as batting practise pitchers by the Giants in the '54 World Series?

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>I read somewhere that it wasn't until Roger Maris arrived in 1960 that Yankee fans fully adopted Mickey as their guy. The resentment of many toward Maris that he would even dare break the Babe's record, being a guy with an aloof attitude and coming from the Gawdawful KC A's, spurred a feeling that Mantle was finally their own. I also agree with Adam and others that Mantle was heavily burdened by comparisons with Joe D. and others during his career, something Aaron and Mays and Clemente never had to deal with. <br />I'll reiterate one last time that I agree with Buck that Mantle, had he been healthy, would have been the greatest player who ever played the game. Since he wasn't, he was on the 10 greatest and The Babe stands far and away as the best. He just flat dominated. If you argue that Mays or Aaron or Cobb was the greatest, you have to remember that Ruth was almost unhittable on the mound during the World Series and during his pitching career was a star.<br />Speaking of wasted potential although a guy did do enough to be a star player and wind up in the Hall of Fame- how can you leave out Rube Waddell? We all know his story. He might have been the greatest pitcher ever in baseball if he hadn't been the strangest player ever to play the game.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>Mantle will always be "class at its' purest form" in my book. As well as, an AWESOME ballplayer. <br /><br />Best Regards,<br /><br />Adam J Moraine

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Mickey Mantle is great. Though his career numbers do not place him in the elite, he's the common man who dined with the Gods.<br /><br />His allure is greater than his stats. Everyone who works regular jobs, drinks with friends after work, & lives check to check has an attraction to the Mick. He was one of us doing what only Gods could do.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Mark McCleary</b><p>Gil, you forgot two members of the .600 club: <br /><br />Barry Bonds .611<br />Todd Helton .604 (and dropping)<br /><br />Bonds also has 3 of the 5 all-time best single season slugging percentages (the toher two spots are held by Ruth).

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Adam, you obviously never met Mantle in person. I had the displeasure of meeting him on numerous occassions. Even when he wasn't a drunken sot, he was a total ass. I can't recall a single pleasurable moment when I encounted Mantle. Mays may have a bad rep as being unsurly, but if you got him away from the autograph signings, he was a very pleasant person to sit and talk with.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Shannon</b><p>My top five in no particular order Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Gehrig and Bonds and when it comes to players who were hurt by injuries or wars Griffey jr hands down Ive never seen anyone play centerfield the way he did and he has such a sweet stroke.

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>Yep - Mantle had so much class he lived to the ripe old age of 63 and kept himself off everyone's consensus top 3 players of all-time. As the good Dr. said - a common man (blessed with great baseball skills, which, IMHO, did not make him a great man).

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>TBOB<br /><br />You apparently got my drift regarding Mantle's "STEPPING" into Joe D's shoes.<br /><br />GIL<br /><br />Read my post again, I did not say Mantle "filled" Joe DiMaggio's shoes. Again,<br />you have to realize that a 19 year old kid comes to New York from Oklahoma,<br />replaces a man who is considered "the greatest living BB player" at that time<br />and Mantle overcomes all this hype with his tremendous athletic talent. That's<br />what many would call character.<br /><br />I am not trying to be argumentative, in my post I gave due credit to Mays; and<br />to Snider. I have met all three of them back in the '80s. Mantle and Snider<br />were just great guys to talk with. Mays, for what ever reason, was not too<br />friendly with his fans who paid a lot to get his autograph and perhaps have a<br />few words with their hero.<br /><br />As far as statistics go, Mays played 4 more years than Mantle. And, the first<br />six years of Mays career were in that "cheap homer" park called the Polo Gnds.<br />The stands down the left field line were only 279 feet away; and, Mays did<br />pull many of his HRs down that short left field line.<br /><br />Pitching in the NL back in the '50s was weaker than the AL. Robin Roberts and<br />Warren Spahn were the only consistent 20+ game winners. However, you are right<br />Gil, your Giants beat the Indians easy in '54. But, your are mistaken about<br />Feller and Score, because they did not pitch in '54 (W.S.).<br /><br />Given identical conditions (ball parks, pitching, career years, etc.),I think<br />Mantle's numbers would be greater than Mays'. Mantle only had 4 - 100+ RBI<br />seasons, but he had many near 100; and, during the '50s Stengel was platooning<br />most of his players, even Mantle didn't play 154 games then.<br /><br />Comparing the RBI/AB statistics, Mantle comes out slightly ahead with an RBI<br />per 5.4 At Bats to Mays' one RBI per 5.7 At Bats. So Gil, I would advise you<br />to do the math next time before you claim that Mantle was not a clutch hitter.<br /><br />And, you are absolutely wrong about the fans booing Mantle during the '50s.<br />As I previously said, yes they did in 1951. In 1952 Mantle batted .311 (what<br />a coincidence....his 1952 Topps card #) and the fans started to appreciate him<br />and in 1956 when he won the TRIPLE CROWN, he really won over the fans.<br /> <br /><br />

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>UNFORTUNATELY, Jay I never had the opportunity to meet Mantle, DiMaggio or Williams. My being in our beloved hobby since 1988, THIS IS without a doubt the BIGGEST regret I have, thus far. (not being able to meet these stars) I do not even recall them EVER coming to Iowa. Ted did back in 1993, for the first annual Bob Feller Day, at Sec Taylor Stadium (now Principal Park) home of the Iowa Cubs. Although, Ted ABSOLUTELY DID NOT sign AT ALL, while he were there.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If there is one thing I've learned from long tenure with SABr is that you never use the term "clutchh". No one has been able to define it mathematically and it always leads to a big brawl when people start making claims about clutch hitting. Lots of RBI does prove clutch hitting. 5 RBI at the end of 12-3 blowout are pretty much meaningless, yet that RBI that ties a game or puts you in the lead is much more valuable than those 5 RBI at the end of a blowout. Without going into game by game analysis, you have now way of know these details about a players career RBI.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>Will,<br /><br />To be certain, Mantle's greatness IMO was as a baseball player and icon; his tragedy was as a human.<br /><br />He who is without sin cast the first stone.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Bob Rousseau</b><p>I'd like a packet of gravel, please!<br /><br />OK- I'll switch sports, but I'll give a great example of a clutch player: Robert Horry.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Do you know who holds the career record for GW-RBI?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I have no clue. I think that stat may have expunged from the record book. It's not something I ever look at beucase the way it was determined was so silly. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>Dr. D -<br />"class at its' purest form" was the comment that generated my response.<br />I agree with your latest statement 100%.<br />Not throwing stones (don't care enough nor have the energy)or even criticizing him. Everyone's personal choices are fine with me, as long as the do not affect mine. Just wondering why someone would think so highly of him as a person.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Lyle Jobe</b><p>he had the greatest impact on the game, but if I had to choose one player for my team in a game which I HAD TO WIN , I would choose Cobb because he brought his "A" game every game . His intensity bordered on psychosis but I wouldn't want to battle his ferocity and determination .I admire that he used his mind more than any other player and was the symbol of the deadball era .

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Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Eddie Murray = clutch player<br /><br />I have to bring Cap Anson in to the list of folks. For consistency, he's hard to beat. And I'm completely biased!

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>edited for double post

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Posted By: <b>pete</b><p>glenn you need to shave and sell that crappy card...<br />pete-

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>I checked your math Ted, and I'll be darned; Mantle's RBI/AB are greater than those of Mays. But Ted, perhaps I am a bit of a thick head, I remember the boos and the repeated strikeouts in the clutch. And I remember Berra consistantly coming thru. Yogi always seemed to swing at anything, but infrequently struck out.<br /><br />As was pointed out in a seperate post, I also recall the fans embracing (figuratively) Mantle during Maris' run for the record. But that was after the fifties.<br /><br />And as far as trying to fill the shoes of Joe D.: I have no sympathy. Throughout that time we had the pressures for acceptance for players including Mays, Campy, Aaron, etc. who were able to be there because those including Doby and Robinson withstood the pressure only a few years earlier.<br /><br />At the conclusion of the fifties, with the Red Sox accepting Pumpsie Green, and the caliber of play demonstrated by these and other vanguards, negro players began to be accepted.<br /><br />So dramatizing Mantle's tribulations regarding being the new Bronx hero seems to me a bit egocentric. And if fact with his play in far less than optimum physical condition he is a hero. Mantle did well.<br /><br />He is not a .300 hitter, he is not a clutch hitter, and to offer another of your quotes "And, especially effective during World Series<br />play as his numbers testify:" - come on Ted - his WS batting average is .257.<br /><br />It is interesting to me that as a '50s Giants fan, "my" competition was from the Dodgers. But I never disliked them. I guess it was the Yankees pompous, no price too big, the KC A's are our farm team - because they are cash poor, etc. that turned me off. Well that and their relentless success. Throughout that interval and before and after they one 14 of 16 pennants, and the Series from when? '49-'53? Something like that. Whew, talk about dominance. And Mantle was their Star - him and that primadonna lefty Ford. I think I liked Ford less than Mantle (if you can imagine that).<br /><br />It is a little fascinating that we can view the same occurances Ted, and come up with entirely different takes on it.<br /><br />Oh yes Ted, I know which Indians pitchers were active in the '54 Series - it was the Giants only appearance - and they swept it. Any reference to Score and Feller are a part of your quote. But let me add: it was the throw after the catch on Wertz drive that was truly amazing to me. And Dusty Rhodes defining what a pinch hitter is. Ahhh 1954, the real Giants only day in the sun. And they did well.<br /><br />Mantle = But how do I explain his baseball card prices?<br /><br />And Herb Score, baseball lost something real good there.<br />

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Pete,<br /><br />You're right, and I just have, on both counts. I appreciate your looking out for me though.<br /><br />[edited to add: Now if I could just wipe that stupid half-grin off my face]<br /><br /><img src="http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3718/june050066qn.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>GIL<br /><br />First, I will tell you that I followed your Giants very closely in the '50s.<br />I recall very well seeing Bobby Thomson's "Shot Heard Around the World" in<br />1951. One of the most exciting games I went as a kid was at Ebbetts Field,<br />Sept. 1951, to see the Giants comeback and beat the Dodgers 2 - 1.<br /><br />And, yes, I clearly recall Mays' fantastic catch off Wertz's bat in '54; and,<br />his throw which I believe doubled-up a Clev. baserunner. And, who can forget<br />Dusty Rhodes performance, a relatively unknown player.<br /><br />Unlike you, though, I try not to let my emotions get in the way of the facts.<br />You keep putting Mantle down by bringing up Berra. Well, their statistics show<br />that they had the same RBI/AB ratio of approximately 5.4; and, in my lifetime<br />Mantle & Berra produced one of the greatest 1 - 2 punches in the game.<br /><br />You talk about "pressure" experienced by certain ballplayers in the late '40s<br />an throughout the '50s. Well, lets go back to the '30s with Jessie Owens and<br />Mack Robinson (Jackie's older brother) competing in the 1936 Olympics. Let's<br />talk about Joe Louis fighting Max Schmelling and a field of contenders that<br />were mainly white.<br /><br />Just like Adam W. brought to your attention in another thread, Gil you have to<br />check the facts before you argue a given topic. You put Mantle down for having<br />a .257 BA in WS play (12 seasons), yet Mays had only .239 in only 4 WS. Mantle<br />from 1952 to 1960 batted .300 in WS play. And, speaking about .300 BA, Mays'<br />lifetime BA = .302 and Mantle's = .298. Most would say there's not much of a<br />difference there to argue over, unless you are some kind of "nit-picking" lawyer?<br /><br />And, I will close by asking you how many times you attended a game at Yankee<br />Stadium during the 1950's ?<br /><br /><br />

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I want to say one thing about Mantle and I apologize if it's been said. But he was the fastest guy I have ever seen. I have been watching baseball games for 25 years live and on TV and I have only been able to watch Mantle in taped games.<br /><br />As you watch so many games you get used to that TV angle from behind homeplate. As you watch more games you see many guys ground out to first base...(stay with me here)...and you gradually become accustomed to where a batter-runner should be in relation to first base after the firstbaseman fields the grounder, jogs over and touches first base with his foot.<br /><br />Usually the guy is half to three-quarters down the line by the time all that happens. Faster guys get a bit closer and loafers like Belle and Bonds well - they hardly run.<br /><br />Anyway, I was watching a taped version of Game 7 of the 1952 World Series between Dodgers and Yankees about 6 months ago. Mantle gets up to bat from the left side and after a few pitches he hits a routine grounder to first. The "behind homeplate angle" shows Hodges field it cleanly and while jogging over to first base to touch it - suddenly from the bottom of the screen comes Mantle full force and barreling to first. Now Hodges had merely fielded the grounder and jogged over to first and by the time Hodges touches first, Mantle is like 10 feet from the bag!<br /><br />I absoultely couldn't believe it. I sat in my living room, jaw dropped, and watched it four more times. Quite frankly, I have no idea how it was possible for Mantle to get from home plate to that spot in that short amount of time. I have never seen anybody get to that point in the baseline on that play ever and I do not think I ever will again. It was unbelievable. Truly. I think it's impossible. But I saw it!<br /><br />That confirmed to me the legend of how fast this guy was when he first came up - 3.12 home to first is SICK.<br /><br />Now factor that in to the fact he hit 500 foot homers BEFORE the age of steroids and you have yourself one heckuva freak of nature.

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Posted By: <b>pete</b><p>glenn, its a start<br />pete-<br /><br />(that pix is pretty funny....)

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Well Ted, I respect your opinion on Mantle, even if mine differs. I intend no slight on Mantle attributable to the competence of Berra. Similarly irrelevant are the pressures experienced by black athletes in other sports.<br /><br />That point was directed toward the pressures Mantle faced as the new Yankee hero following Joe D., and how that pressure, in baseball, compared to the pressures in baseball experienced by his black peers, at that time.<br /><br />Additionally irrelevant to my post in this thread are the observations I shared on a different subject in a different thread! These comments related to facts which I researched applicable to Babe Ruth and Lefty O'Doul. Specifically in that thread, I speculated about Ruth's issuance of more walks than strikeouts during the two years preceeding his trade to the Yankees, and his general continuance of this issuance of more walks than strikeouts after joining the Yanks. Ted, realistically you can not think that I did not research that obscure observation. I threw it out to evoke comment realizing that the speculation of a causative factor in Ruth's transition to a position player was extremely weak. And I got the comment which was deserved.<br /><br />And Ted, if I put Mantle down for having a WS .257 average, maybe he deserves it. It is not I who stated: "And, especially effective during World Series play as his numbers testify:" with regard to Mantle's performance.<br /><br />Whether there is a difference between a .300 hitter and one who does not make the grade, between a 500+ HR club member and one who falls short, or a pitcher who gets 300 wins or almost does, is as important as each fan makes it.<br /><br />I think the truth of the matter on this subject Ted, is you grew up as a Yankee fan and I did exactly the opposite. I believe that both of our views are a little clouded. I know that it amazes me that you can look at the statistics, recall the play and still think that Mantle is in the league with one of the all time greats.<br /><br />Look at the line ups that our fellow board members have selected for their all time teams, Ted. How many chose Mantle; how many chose Mays? Look at mine. I chose Williams.<br /><br />It has been an interesting debate Ted, thank you. You can have the last post if you want it. <br /><br />Comments regarding nit-picking, profession identification and how many ballgames I attended as a youth, will go unanswered unless you can justify their relevance.<br /><br />Edited to add: Yes AP13, Mantle certainly was fast. And I heard it said that Mays wore hats too big for him, simply to dramatize his running ability (by having the hat fly off). It is too bad that Mantle's legs did not stay healthy. But he certainly was still a heck of a ballplayer - and a man for enduring the daily treatments just so he could go out and play. This doesn't sound like someone who would choke in the clutch. Ya never know.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>GIL<br /><br />I asked you a very simple (to answer) and very straight forward question,<br />and you refuse to answer it. That tells me all I want to know regarding any<br />continuing meaningful discussion with you on this subject.<br /><br />AP13<br /><br />I had a great conversation with Richie Ashburn about 10 years ago. I had him<br />sign a color picture of him laying down a drag bunt. And, I asked him if his<br />3.0 seconds time running to 1st Base was the fastest in the Majors. He very<br />graciously replied....NO....and said the following: "The Sporting News press<br />timed him and Mickey Mantle (batting lefty) over and over again throughout<br />the '50s; and, they consistently tied at 3.0 secs. getting to 1st base".<br /><br />Most have forgotten how versatile Mantle was; everyone remembers his 565 ft.<br />homers at Griffith Park, in Washington (a 1959 Topps card depicts this). But,<br />he was also a pretty darn good bunter when his team just needed a hit.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just some observations from a outsider looking in on the ted-Gil debate. Ted, you obviously are a dyed in the wool Yankees fan. No amount of proof will ever change your mind when it comes to anything involving your beloved Yankees. Gil, anObviously ardent Giants fans, seems to be a more open minded, but not a whole lot more. Now combine that with an intercity rivalry and you get a debate that no one is going to win and simply degenerate into name calling, which Ted resorted to. Gil did the right and hopefully walked away from this without responding anymore. Neither of you is going to convince the other of anything when it comes to Giants and Yankees.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakisc</b><p>Give me one example where I resorted to name calling ?<br /><br />Yes,we are both biased, but I can back up my statements with real experiences<br />from many games I saw as a kid at Yankee Stadium during the '50s. And, I do<br />not care whether you believe me or not, but my BaseBall recollectios of those<br />years are very clear. Furthermore, I still have many game Programs which I<br />scored. <br /><br />You don't really know me; but, I guess you know Gil. So I can understand why<br />you side with him. However, he wants to debate with me, and I simply ask him<br />how many times he actually attended Yankee games during Mantle's career; and<br />he refuses to answer. Then, its obvious to me that he does not have the facts <br />to support many of his claims.<br /><br />I have always liked Mays, although I was at the old Polo Grounds once as a kid<br />I certainly would not claim to know as much about Mays as Gil thinks he knows<br />about Mantle.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Actually, I don't know either one of you outside of your names on the board. The name calling came in when with you lawayer reference. I have no idea if Gil is lawyers, none the less, an uncalled for remark. <br /><br />I don't dismiss your experiences, but I've learned one thing over the years, trying to debate a passionate and dyed in the wool fan is an impossibility becuase that person is absolutely set in their ways and no amount of evidence is going to convince them that they are wrong about their favorite player/team. And when you put 2 polar opposites like you two, no one is going to win the argument is it is most likely going to lead to animosity between the two parties. Just my view on the situtaiton.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Indeed. Barring someone who was a fan of and saw all of the greats of the game in person, you'll only get true objectivity from someone who was a fan of and saw none of them.

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I fully agree with your earlier comment that raw RBI stats.do not necessarily<br />indicate how "clutch" a player was. But since you are a SABR dude, check this<br />out. The actual facts tell the real story regarding Mantle's W.S. performance:<br /><br />1952.....AB = 29.....H = 10....BA = .345.....R = 5.....RBI = 3.....HR = 2<br />.....1st HR wins Game 6..........2nd HR wins game 7<br /><br />1953.....AB = 24.....H = 5.....BA = .208.....R = 2.....RBI = 7.....HR = 2<br />.....1st HR wins Game 2.........2nd HR (grand slam) wins Game 5<br /><br />1956.....AB = 24.....H = 6.....BA = .250.....R = 6.....RBI = 4.....HR = 3<br />.....3rd HR only score in Game 5 (perfect game, no-hitter)<br /><br />1960.....AB = 25.....H = 10....BA = .400.....R = 8.....RBI = 11....HR = 3<br />.....1st & 2nd HRs (5-RBIs) spark rally to win Game 2<br /><br />This information is accurate (from BB Encyc.) and my original scored programs.<br />I've just shown 4 World Series (for comparison), since Mays was in only four<br />and batted .239. Mantle, of course was in 12 W. S. and batted .259; so, numbers<br />sometimes do not tell the whole story.<br /><br />From your statement, I sense you seem to have a problem with me. Otherwise you<br />wouldn't have interpreted my "nit-picking lawyer" comment as a derogatory one.<br />It was just a simple expression, and I feel an appropriate one, to the ridiculous<br />hair-splitting comment regarding Mays' and Mantle's lifetime BA. Your accusation<br />was out of line. You have to lighten up....Jay.<br /><br />You obviously know Mark Macrae, talk with him. Mark and I have been best friends<br />since March 1983 when I first set up at the Willow Grove (Philly) Show.<br /><br />From a Vietnam era US Air Force guy to a US Navy guy, have a great July 4th. <br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br />

Cobb vs. Wagner
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Ted, I don't have a problem a with you. I don't really take anything personal here. The only problem I have is blind homerism (no, that's not a Simpsons things :-p) <br /><br />Cherry picking Mantle's performance in the WS doesn't prove his greatness. It shows his mortality. You cite 4 game from 12 series. This means he played a minimum of 48 games. He had a major impact on 4 games and and little or none in 44. This means he disaapeared 11 times out of 12. I know this isn't accurate, but you get my drift. It's the just the cynic in me. I do the same thing with ads. If they making some wild claim, I ask myself, what are they really hiding with this wild claim.<br /><br />Mantle was obviously a great talent, but if you swapped cities and circumstances, there would a legion of rabid MAntle fans instead of Mantle fans. Much of a players popularity and legend has to do with who they play for and how well that ream does. A single player, no matter how great, cannot carry a team. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br />My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.