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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Rhys:<br /><br />I see your points about the "cabinets" vs. "cards" argument...<br /><br />but what if someone at Duffy's Bar drew charcoal sketches of the ballplayers as they sat at the bar, and then sold them on the street with an ad for Duffy's Bar on the back?? <br /><br />Would these be baseball "cards"??<br /><br />Not to me.<br /><br />Or in modern times, what if someone at Duffy's bar took photos of the players and sold them to customers with a "Duffy's Bar" ad on the back. NOT "trading cards" to me.<br /><br />They might be baseball ITEMS or baseball ADVERTISEMENTS...<br /><br />but just not "trading cards" to me.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I understand your position about the photographers making BUNCHES of these "cabinets" and then giving them out to the public as a way to ADVERTISE for their photography business...<br /><br />but I still don't think that a kid in 1890 could have walked up to the photography studio and collected a whole set of these cabinets.<br /><br />I think it was probably somewhat expensive to make each one, and they were probably given out JUDICIOUSLY to certain people more as "business cards" for the photographer.<br /><br />But hey, to each his own! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Restoration is here to stay. It and reprints are only going to become more sophisticated, and less detectable. As I have said before. It will not be long until the only way to establish a card's degree of originality is by its documented provenance.<br /><br />For this reason, full and clear disclosure by auction houses and others is crucial to the credibility of our collectibles. Or, I guess, buying cards which grade 4 or less currently appears to be a viable alternative.
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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I cannot believe that Mastro did that much work on the card. Wow. I would like to see any sale of a card with that much work on it carry a before and after image and have a statement from the restorer explaining what had been done. And I'd like a solid gold toilet seat too, but that's not in the works (quote stolen from Austin Powers). I don't think selling it any other way is fair to the customer, but call me crazy. Or just a damn lawyer who likes to see the laws of his state followed by an auctioneer who sends catalogues and sells cards to California residents...<br /><br />PSA already grades cards that have had writing removed. I know because I just recently bought one, and I am none to happy with it. I bought an E90-1 Crawford graded PSA 3 (MK). The MK looked to be a small pen mark at the top, which was no big deal to me. When I looked at the card closely, however, I found a lot more writing that had been erased. I've also had cards with writing on them slabbed by SGC and GAI. So, we are to some extent debating a done deal, as the major slabbers all already slab cards with writing on them. <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>I spoke to someone at Mastro a few minutes ago about this issue. They are going to modify the item description, and notify all of the bidders about the change. They also described for me what "work" was done on the card (other than the pinhole repairs which were disclosed), which basically involved professional cleaning to stabilize the card, as Pete suggested above. I am comfortable with the discussion that I had, and would suggest that anyone who would like further information contact Mastronet directly.
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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Professional cleaning to stabilize the card? Does the cleaning solution that they used also recolor the white spot on Keeler's stomach?<br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>PASJD,<br /><br />They do say there was work done and use the term "appears" whatever. But a more detailed decription wouldn't have hurt.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Wesley: That white spot on the original DOES look like "paper loss," doesn't it??<br /><br />I guess it wasn't... because if it was... they "patched" more than just pinholes.
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>hmmm....
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Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>Again, I would like to emphasize to contact Mastro directly to get a better understanding of the situation. I'm not saying that what they did was right or wrong, but they do have an explanation, and they are willing to discuss it.<br /><br />As to the area of concern at the bottom center of the photo, they are looking into whether there was paper missing, or if there may have been paper or something like white out on the photo that was removed. This is probably why the description hasn't been updated yet.
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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>The auction description has been recently updated.<br />
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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>I am not making an argument that all cabinets should be considered cards, and I completely see your point of view. However, there are some cabinet photo groups which are more like cards than a lot of the cards we collect, and then there are thousands which are just like you said, similar to player snapshots. I would say that a studio photo of a baseball player on a professional team in uniform with photographer advertising on it is absolutely a card as these were almost exclusively done to increase business for the studio and not because the professional player decided to pop in one day with his uniform on and hair combed for a keepsake.<br /><br />The studio cabinets of ballplayers wearing dress clothes were primarily done for themselves, with some exceptions like the Stevens cabinets which were produced for resale by the studio.<br /><br />Not real similar to a charcoal drawing scenerio because these were mass produced (in varying quantities) and in many many situations, there are more of these particular cabinet cards out there than most of the 19th century "cards". My guess is that there were probably several hundred at least of these Keeler cabinets produced in the New York area and distributed by the photographer or sold as advertising pieces for his studio. It is just that only a few have surfaced in the last 20 years.<br /><br />This is abviously a huge grey area which will never be resolved to anyones satisfaction, but it makes for a nice debate. <br /><br />Rhys<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Sounds to this cynic like Mastro done been found out and they are trying to figure out the best way to cover their tracks. "Looking into" whether there was paper missing? HUH? Plus the modified description doesn't tout the fact that the card has been "stablizied," gee I would think they would point that out because it should increase its value. The whole thing is a non-sequitur anyhow, it starts out saying inquiry has been made about the pinholes and then goes on not to explain how they were mended but to talk about the cleaning.
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"As to the area of concern at the bottom center of the photo, they are looking into whether there was paper missing, or if there may have been paper or something like white out on the photo that was removed. I was told that these findings would be disclosed in their revised description. This is probably why the description hasn't been updated yet."</i><br /><br /><br />Should the disclosures have been made prior to or after listing the item in their catalog auction (and online)?<br /><br />Also, what does it mean that they are "looking into" whether there was paper missing? Do they not know? Who restored the card?
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>What does "stabilized" mean in the present context? Can one "stabilize" an unstable paper object without physically adding something to it? Is "stabilization" some kind of metaphysical process that transcends the physical limitations of the card through supernatural restorative means? Or is "stabilized" another way of saying "paper added to reinforce the card"?
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Sounds like a euphemism to me meaning absolutely nothing.
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Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Mike--The lot description has been modified by Doug Allen. The only restoration was the pinhole repair. As to stabilizing the card, according to Doug that involved the common process of deacidifying the paper.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>"Stabilized" to me almost sounds like they put a "protective coating" over the whole card???<br /><br />That would be interesting... and certainly something that should be disclosed.<br /><br />Heck, that might INCREASE the value of the cabinet to some people.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Jay: Any idea what "de-acidifying" entails??<br /><br />Do they just dip the whole card into something... or what?<br /><br />I am not familiar with this. Is this something that is done to Old Judge cards or any other old cards that actually consist of old photographs attached to cardboard backings??<br /><br />Just curious and interested. I would assume that if it can be done without messing up the cards... then it has probably been done HUNDREDS of times to old photo cards... and should maybe be done to ALL such cards?
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Anyone have any stabilizing fluid they can sell me, would sure like to protect my cards as best I can.
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Sounds to me like stabilization might be a good substitute for people who don't take to slabs.
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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>the irony of the whole thread is, this post will probably deter potential bidders, or even better (or worse, depending on your point of view) get bidders to cancel their bids.<br />i'm just finding it pretty humorous since this thread was started by the consignor of the altered card. <br />as some beer company says "know when to say when" <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />
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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I dont think the extra info will matter that much for a few reasons.Whether its a 'rookie card' or not the fact that its an extremely early cabinet photo of a popular hall of famer that you might not see for sale again for a long time,people will forget the condition<br /><br />When something is so extremely rare it could be in vg or ex condition and it will probably go for the same price.If im looking for something one of a kind for a long time and it comes up for sale im not going to bid XX amount because its only vg condition,im going to try my best to win it and upgrade later if it ever comes along<br /><br />Thats exactly what will happen with this card.I would be very surprised if someone who really wants it bad enough to bid 4k plus now changes their mind because the card looks nicer than it used to, which wasnt as nice as it originally was to begin with
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>So if I buy this "cabinet"...<br /><br />will it actually INCREASE in value if I "re-restore" it to its original condition...<br /><br />by sticking some pins in it and spreading glue all over it??<br /><br />That might be fun. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I think you would actually make more money Hal if you wrote the word Yankees under New York cause we all know Yankees items sell the best.<br /><br />I might win it and stick it in my safe and it will never see the light of day again except when company comes over on thanksgiving<br /><br />PS Hal,give some thought to those other non-rookie cabinets we talked up moneybags.I wont tell anyone about it
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>But John ...<br /><br />those 1886 J. Woods that TIK & TIK are selling are NOT "cards" to me...<br /><br />because NOT ONLY are they "cabinets"...<br /><br />but they are also "proofs"...<br /><br />and I am not a fan of proofs.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />To me, this is like me taking a photograph of myself and then giving it to Salvador Dali to paint some portraits of me.<br /><br />Which has value?? The original photo ... or the artist's actual creations??<br /><br />To me, having the proofs just isn't as "appealling" as having the real final product: The "cards" themselves as they were INTENDED to look.<br /><br />Again, just my two cents.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Is this an area of paper loss or excess paper? Can any of the pre-restoration owners shed any light on this?<br /><br /><img src="http://members.aol.com/bmwcards/Keelerspot.jpg">
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Mike, it wasn't "restored," it was "cleaned/stablized," where do you get these notions?
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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"Mike--The lot description has been modified by Doug Allen. The only restoration was the pinhole repair. As to stabilizing the card, according to Doug that involved the common process of deacidifying the paper."</i><br /><br />Jay,<br /><br />I'm wondering the same thing as Hal. Is this something that Mastro routinely does to all its vintage memorabilia and baseball cards or are only certain items selected?
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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>I still don't get it...if they can clean up the Mona Lisa and the Sistene Chapel why the heck can't they clean up baseball cards, etc.?? I still don't understand this whole leave 'em as they are and slab 'em mentality. I say - clean them up, fix them up, make them look their best and sell them. That's what you do with art, cars, women (sorry Julie) and everything else in the world!<br /><br />IMHO,<br /><br />Rob M.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Rob:<br /><br />Only because nobody is worried about somebody ever trying to SELL the Mona Lisa or the Sistene Chapel to someone else down the road.<br /><br />That's my only concern. How on earth will ANYONE ever know in 20 years that this cabinet once had holes in it? <br /><br />Maybe some people wouldn't care if it did and would buy it anyway...<br /><br />but then those people shouldn't care if the card is somehow "permanently tagged" as having been restored.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Don't get me wrong.<br /><br />This cabinet is indeed BEAUTIFUL now that it has been cleaned up, and it will make someone very happy. Like John said, if I wanted it, I would buy it in a heartbeat regardless of the condition.<br /><br />I just wish that there was some way of PERMANENTLY letting future generations know that work has been done on the piece.<br /><br />Maybe they should put a checklist on the BACK of the cabinet like you see in restaurant bathrooms:<br /><br /><br />Restored and Cleaned by:<br />---------------------------<br />Date: --/--/---- Person:<br />Date: --/--/---- Person:<br />Date: --/--/---- Person<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>I can fully agree with that. I think restoring cards, images, etc. is a great thing. It would be nice, however, if the restorations were noted. Maybe that's the next "thing". Slabing restored cards with some form of notations as to the work done on them.
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Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>and possibly even unique, I do not buy into the theory that the restoration or cleaning do not weigh materially in the final price. Logic dictates otherwise, for why would Mastro have it professionally restored/cleaned/de-acidfied/whatever if the final bid were largely unaffected.<br /><br />I tend to agree with PASJD that Mastro is acting only after it got "caught", and its conduct is not sterling by any means with regard to this item. Moreover, while there is always the buyer beware, educate yourself, ask questions argument out there, that does not fully absolve Mastro either, at least if they truly want anyone to believe that "highly reputable" "bid with confidence" mantra they lay out for the public.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>If it didn't affect the value, why would Mastro BOTH do whatever he did to the card AND then not disclose it? I readily admit I don't know as much as many of the folks on this Board, but the whole thing just rubs me the wrong way and raises a number of red flags.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Sadly, I agree.<br /><br />Here would have been a GREAT CHANCE for Mastro to HELP the hobby by showing BOTH images (before and after) and letting EVERYONE know forever (since most people keep the catalogs) that the card had been very nicely and professionally restored.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>petecld</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />"Do they just dip the whole card into something... or what?"<br /><br />You can dip the item into a tank or there are spray forms available.<br /><br />What causes paper to yellow and turn brittle are the natural acids in the paper. Treating an item slows the aging process. Cheaoer paper (newspapres) have a higher acid content and yellow faster. I think david mentioned in the past to leave a newspaper out in the sun a doy or two and see how much the paper changes. Deacidifying might brighten an item over all but it is not a cleaner. It doesn't treat stains, it just reacts to the acid in the paper. This process is used by libraries, museums, etc. and is well accepted.<br /><br />The item isn't messed up and you probably would never know the difference if you saw a treated card. Unlike bleaching, this treatment doesn't emit a stong odor.<br />Ê<br /><br />Ê<br /><br />PASJD,<br /><br />I don't know if it is a process you want to try yourself. <br /><br />"Sounds to me like stabilization might be a good substitute for people who don't take to slabs."<br /><br />Yes, I feel it is. It is more commonly done to books, comic books, some prints, and newspapers anything on thin cheaper media but doing it to a Baseball card won't hurt it.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>But my understanding is that you can only "stabilize" and "deacidify" PAPER products...<br /><br />but NOT photographs!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Accordingly, it is entirely possible that the photograph was removed from the cardboard and that the cardboard was dipped into the formula by itself.<br /><br />Likewise, the photograph itself may have been emersed into some sort of agent (perhaps bleached with something like a copper chloride solution or a potassium permanganate solution) and then REDEVEVLOPED.<br /><br />No, I didn't just make this all up. <br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />ONCE AGAIN ... I am NOT saying that any of this is "wrong"...<br /><br />I just wish that Mastro would have told everyone about the process and walked us through it.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>Momentarily returning to the original question of when is a card a card, what about Mastro 2099, the photograph, later a Harper's woodcut, of the 1882 Porovidence Grays with both Wrights, Radbourne and (a very young) Ward? Could you say, Hal, that this photo was made to promote a team, and was therefore a card?
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>Rob and Hal:<br /><br />I like a lot of what you've said.<br /><br />I think this all comes down to provenance and honesty. <br /><br />I was speaking to a fellow collector this morning who also likened this issue to vintage automobiles. Perhaps some of you think that comparison is a stretch, but people restore autos all the time and that makes them <b><u>more</u></b> valuable, not less valuable. I mean, come on.....would you rather have a rusted out 1968 Barracuda or a restored one?<br /><br />I think Mastro could have done a more complete disclosure on what was done to the card to "pretty it up," but the real issue will be for the new owner to fess up to a potential buyer what has been done to the card.<br /><br />Given the revised description, if the new owner <b><u>never </u></b> sells the card, I think they will be happy with what they've bought or they they would not have plunked down the money to begin with.<br /><br />Kevin <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>george counter</b><p>Very interesting the fact that Mr. Miller knew about the restoration process conduced by mastronet, and he didn't ask for a description change when auction went live.<br />Ethics? <br /><br />Mastronet must show the original scan along the new one.<br />I don't think a description change will solve the issue here.<br /><br />Another interesting thing is the way he used to market the Keeler cabinet by starting a common thread using CAPS and a flashy title.<br />If you go back and check Mr. Miller's threads in/near auction season, you'll find the same pattern.<br /><br />No more hidden agendas please! (Looks like it wasn't all that hidden to some of the regulars here)<br /><br />I don't mind buying restored items, in fact I'm in favor most of the times., but full disclosure is a must.<br /><br />Where is Mr. Plancich from C.A.R.D.S?<br />Would love to read his comments.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Kevin,<br />Good point at new owner. Shouldn't Mastro be considered the new owner at this time? True, the card is on consignment, but being the most well known auction in the hobby, don't you think he could also lead the way on disclosing information on how a card was restored?
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Kevin:<br /><br />The big problem is that unless the new buyer is a reader of THIS website...<br /><br />the new buyer WON'T KNOW what has been done to the card...<br /><br />so he woudn't be able to disclose anything even if he wanted to.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />This is why I thought Mastro should have just posted BOTH photos and not even APPEAR to be hiding anything.<br /><br />The work that was done was professional, and Mastro should be PROUD to showcase the wonderful craftsmanship associated with the restoration.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>And JULIE...<br /><br />NO, that 1882 team composite is NOT a baseball card.<br /><br />I have an 1882 Chicago Team version of the same set...<br /><br />and while I like it because it is neat...<br /><br />it is NOT a baseball "trading card."<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />It is simply a "Team Photograph" just like the ones they give out to the first 20,000 fans on Picture Day at Fenway. <br /><br />Not a "card."
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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>DD and Hal:<br /><br />I absolutely believe that as one of if not the <b>the</b> premier auction houses for sports memorablila Mastro should have originally included what now appears as an addendum in their item description. But unless Mastro is out and out lying, doesn't the added note now fully disclose what has been done to the card?<br /><br />Kevin <br /><br />"<b><font color=red>Note - Inquiries have been made regarding what is referred to as the pinholes being "professionally mended". Just to confirm, no other restoration has been done to this phenomenal card. The card did display glue residue and pencil markings on the front of the image which was cleaned but nothing was added to the card.</font></b>"<br />
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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>"Again, this is why I REALLY WANT someone reputable like SGC to start slabbing cards as "Authentic-Rebacked" or "Authentic-Bleached" or "Authentic-Trimmed"..."<br /><br />"I've been suggesting to SGC that they slab altered or trimmed for years now..."<br /><br />I have seen several PSA-slabbed cards labeled "Authentic--Trimmed" on ebay and, in fact, I have purchased one.
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Kevin, I suppose it does ... but I just think it would have been COOLER to actually SHOW the difference between "before" and "after."<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Mastro says the pinholes were "mended"... but that "no other restoration" was done to the card.<br /><br />And that all depends on what you consider to be "restoration?"<br /><br />Cleaning the glue off with some solvents and erasing the writing off of the card COULD be considered "restoration"... but admittedly they are disclosing these facts now.<br /><br />And if the paper was "deacidifyed"... then that COULD be considered "restoration."<br /><br />If the photographic image was re-developed and sharpened up... then that COULD be considered "restoration."<br /><br />???<br /><br />I think that the door is still open... because the potential buyer is at the mercy of how MASTRO defines "restoration."<br /><br />I think the card has been "cleaned up" using several different professional methods that an untrained person could NOT have done at home...<br /><br />but an untrained buyer would probably NOT SUSPECT that all of this work was done to the card under the heading of "cleaning."<br /><br />Just my thoughts.
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Posted By: <b>JDWeller</b><p>Very disappointed to learn of this and great work to the board. This is one of the most drastic makeovers this board has uncovered. It is ironic when Mr. Miller, in an effort to pump his own lot, may have actually ended up hurting it. <br /><br />One has to wonder if Mastro (and other auction houses) rountinely recommend to their clients to have their consignments improved in this manner? Mr. Miller commented that he had no idea until he saw the catalog, so did Mastro do this without his consent? The processes could not be inexpensive and I would think the consignor would know what was being done as he would be footing the bill.<br /><br />The added disclosure to the description is not enough. The lot should be pulled unless Mastro has contacted all of the bidders to inform them of the history of this item. <br /><br />The board has actually been quite kind to both Mastro and Mr. Miller it must be the Christmas spirit as I have watched others get torn apart for far less. The post by Mr. Miller and his consent to restore the item under these conditions, given his prominence in the hobby and his financial stature, is in very poor form.<br /><br />JDW<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Jay Miller has always been nice to me.<br /><br />Doug Allen and Kevin Struss at Mastro have always been nice to me.<br /><br />Heck, everyone has always been nice to me, because I try to be nice to them.<br /><br />Well...<br /><br />I guess there was that one time I had to straighten BcD out. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Are you still out there Brian?<br /><br />---<br /><br />I don't want to think that anybody was trying to "cheat" or "deceive" anyone...<br /><br />which is why I REALLY wish that they had just disclosed EVERYTHING from the beginning and not opened the door for people to even suspect anything fishy. <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>george counter</b><p>Very well said JD!<br /><br />"The board has actually been quite kind to both Mastro and Mr. Miller it must be the Christmas spirit as I have watched others get torn apart for far less. The post by Mr. Miller and his consent to restore the item under these conditions, given his prominence in the hobby and his financial stature, is in very poor form."<br /><br />The Board's favorite OJ Guru has received a very kind treatment.<br />I'm counting on MW to keep the investigation open <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>george counter</b><p>"I don't want to think that anybody was trying to "cheat" or "deceive" anyone..."<br /><br />Quote from movie fav Ferris Bueller:<br /><br />Ed Rooney : Wake up and smell the coffee, Mrs Bueller. It's a fool's paradise. He is just leading you down the primrose path. <br /><br />Come on Hal!<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............<br /><br />smell those beans a roastin' !!<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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