Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p>Julie - You've got the "Bay of Pigs" mixed up with the "Cuban Missle Crisis." They were seperate incidents. I've seen other people get them mixed up also. In any event, as was mentioned, I shouldn't be using logic so I'm done with this thread. I'm going back to bashing baseball card scammers. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>......<BR><BR>Do you have any idea how BORING it is to read about baseball card scammers all day?

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>In any case, I appreciate you all giving me something to do on a very boring Friday afternoon! Have a great weekend

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Am I the only guy here that thinks Sutton is a marginal HOFer?

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>Sutton is Extremely marginal. So, do you all feel that Boggs and Sandberg are shoe-in's for this years...HOF vote? Who else for this year?<BR><BR>Side note: I saw this advertisement on Yahoo today - I thought about what Ruth may have used this bat for if he were a politician today? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><BR><BR>Ruth's historic bat on display in Cleveland<BR><BR>CLEVELAND (AP) -- The bat Babe Ruth used to hit the first home run in Yankee Stadium more than 80 years ago is on display at a sports show and could be sold for more than $1 million this year. <BR>The bat is among the memorabilia displayed at The National Sports Collectors Convention, which runs through Sunday. <BR>The owner of the bat, SportsCards Plus, said in June that it planned to auction the bat. On Thursday, Sotheby's said it would handle the auction Dec. 2 in New York.<BR>The only two other pieces of sports memorabilia to eclipse $1 million have been the Honus Wagner T-206 card and Mark McGwire's 70th home run ball. The sale possibly could exceed the original cost to build Yankee Stadium -- $2.5 million. <BR>SportsCards Plus auction director Dan Imler, said it's hard to put a price tag on a piece of history. <BR>``Ruth was a man of mythic proportions. More than any other man, he transcended sports, achieving a nearly unrivaled status as an American icon,'' Imler said. ``This bat, the ultimate tool of his trade, is the finest sports artifact we'll see in our lifetime.'' <BR>The historic homer came in the third inning on April 18, 1923, against the Boston Red Sox before a crowd of 74,000, with nearly 25,000 more fans turned away. <BR>``I'd give a year of my life if I could hit a home run in the first game in this new park,'' Ruth said before the game. <BR>He lined a shot into the right-field bleachers, a three-run homer that led the Yankees to a 4-1 victory, prompting sports writer Fred Lieb to dub the new park, ``The House That Ruth Built.'' <BR>Other Ruth memorabilia set to be auctioned by Sotheby's in December include his will and a used baseball glove. <BR>On the Net: <BR>SportsCard Plus: <a href="http://www.sportscardsplus.com" target=_new><a href="http://www.sportscardsplus.com</a" target=_new>http://www.sportscardsplus.com</a</a>>/ <BR>Sotheby's: <a href="http://www.sothebys.com" target=_new><a href="http://www.sothebys.com</a" target=_new>http://www.sothebys.com</a</a>>/ <BR>Sports Convention: <a href="http://natlconv.com/national/national2003" target=_new><a href="http://natlconv.com/national/national2003</a" target=_new>http://natlconv.com/national/national2003</a</a>>/<BR>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>That he's a compassionate marginal Righty. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>the issues with the Yankees that is. If only they had won that game, maybe they would have won all of those championships and the Yankees would simply be called the "bombers" for all the wrong reasons not the right reasons.<BR><BR>FYI, I am not a fan of either so I have nothing to gain with where this story is going. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Joe P you could be the Poet Laureate of the board..

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>"Republican or democrat, consider the following:<BR><BR>Every arab terrorist in the world wants Kerry to win the election. Oh, and all the French do too."<BR>*<BR>*<BR>*<BR>This just in.<BR>Word has it from a reliable source that Read My Lips is secretly rooting for Kerry & Edwards.<BR><BR>Who is Read My Lips???<BR><BR>Oh yes, this message has been approved by:<BR>Alfred E. Neumann

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (potential HOFers)

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (potential HOFers)<BR><BR>Sorry about the double post. I got bumped from the chatroom and wound up in the middle of this one--so I finished it (again).

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>AM I THE ONLY REPUBLICAN ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD?<BR><BR>ADAM<BR>AGE 23<BR>IOWA<BR><BR>I WILL MEET DON SUTTON AT THE BOB FELLER MUSEUM ON OCT 23. I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO IT.

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><BR><BR> NO. Be well Brian

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Far from it, Adam. <br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>Start over, and look for words friendly to your opinions.<BR><BR>(Not from me, of course--except that I praised the whole argument.)

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>Republican or democrat, consider the following:<BR>Every arab terrorist in the world wants Kerry to win the election.&gt;<BR><BR>That has to be the stupidest thing I've read all year.<BR>It doesn't even deserve comment.<BR>But, if you want to vote for the frat boy cocaine snorting rich kid with the silver spoon in his mouth who kept America safe for democracy by guarding the gulf coast of America during the Vietnam War (or was he even there?), do it. Just don't paint Kerry with some kind of gibberish brush. I would assume the Arab terrorists want Bush in office, he's proven so impotent in finding most of them. But then again I guess he was too busy stockpiling all those weapons of mass destruction he found. This war was not worth one single life of a young man or woman much less the hundreds of billions of dollars it will cost which could have been used to shore up social security, provide medical treatment for the middle class Americans who are caught in the middle, house the homeless, feed the starving and provide for the people of the greatest country on earth, the United States.

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>The sooner the better.<BR><BR>And read post "When you guys finish hashing over the war that never should have been started..."

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Greg Ecklund</b><p>The sad thing is that other than his admirable service in Vietnam, a description of Kerry's background and Bush's background is quite similar. Both were born with silver spoons and neither has a very substantive political background - Bush with a governorship that he won solely on his pedigree and Kerry, while a long serving Senator, has a fairly short list of accomplishments considering how much time he has served there.<BR><BR>The worst thing about this election is that so few people (including myself) will be voting FOR someone. I'll be voting against Bush and hope that Republicans retain control of Congress - gridlock has served us well, at least in recent memory.

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>(and I don't mean the National); but I doubt it...

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>I wonder if Sutton had an LA hair dresser in the 70's ?

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>...

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Dan</b><p>Kerry married the Heinz heiress, she has a fortune. Something about her husband, Mr Heinz falling out of the sky in an heiressplane, I mean airplane. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Funny thing is, from what I have been told, she made him sign a pre-nup, but he is still not someone I would want running this country. <BR><BR>BTW, sometimes people whom win medals in the service just happen to be in charge of the real hero's as opposed to actually being one themself. Another thing to consider, 3 purple hearts, never heard of that one, it is extraordinarily rare you would think. Imagine the horrible luck that must be in play for you to get hit at three different timeframes within one war. Hmmm, makes you wonder about his ability to think on his toes. <BR><BR>BTW a second time - to answer your question - Me, I have been in the military for 18 plus years, Military Intelligence to be exact. Was in Submarines for 13 of my 18 years (over 3 years of my life under water), but have spent time working intel during both Gulf War's and have had boots on the beach multiple times with over 1 1/2 years in theatre (not a lot, but have unfortunately enough time to watch a few of my buddies get killed within a few yards of me). VA hospitals, yes, I actually visit every chance I get to walk some of the wards and talk with the real hero's, I have been collecting Army magazines like "The Yank" for years and hand them out for FREE to the soldiers, they really like them so I just keep bringing them. <BR><BR>JOE-P: Just wondering if you have any more stupid questions that you want me to answer? You see, just because you like Kerry, it does not mean that he has maybe won some medals based on the heroics of others, it happens all the time. A recent Commanding Officer won the Bronze Star for being the one in charge, funny thing is, he never went in to the war zone, only some of his people. That is only one example, there are many more if you wish.<BR><BR>Lastly, I updated my Purple Heart comment so you wouldn't cry about it anymore. Yes, I am fully aware that there are real warriors out there whom have been recipients of 3 Purple Hearts, it is just hard to believe that Kerry fits that criteria.<BR><BR>Last Lastly - <BR>My Father: Retired Army Major, via Officer's Candidate School, prior door gunner in Vietnam when he was enlisted.<BR><BR>Uncle: Joseph Nolan - Vietnam MIA, helicopter pilot. <BR> <BR>My Grandfather: Army regular during WWII, Combat Wounded, recipient of the Purple Heart (damn near had his whole arm blown off).<BR> <BR>My Great Grandfather: Army Regular during WWI<BR><BR> <BR><BR>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>Quote by Dan:<BR>"BTW, sometimes people whom win medals in the service just happen to be in charge of the real hero's as opposed to actually being one themself. Another thing to consider, what kind of dumb$#s gets shot three different times... 3 Purple Hearts... Never heard of that one, it is extraordinarily rare you would think. Imagine the horrible luck that must be in play for you to get hit at three different timeframes within one war. Hmmm, makes you wonder about his ability to think on his toes."<BR>*<BR>*<BR>*<BR>With all due respect, I'm not going to ask:<BR>1. What branch of the service?<BR>2. What outfit?<BR>3. Were you ever in combat?<BR>4. Were you ever in a VA hospital?<BR>5. Do you have a father, grandfater or anyone in the family that served in combat during a war?<BR>6. If you do have, would they know of someone that received multiple wounds during the course of a war?<BR>7. If they have, have they called their buddies a<BR>dumba$$?<BR><BR>In all my years, I've known veterans from the First World War, Second World War, Korean War, Nam War and the Bush Wars.<BR>I've never heard anyone of them ever refer to an unfortunate comrade in arms as a multple dumba$$.<BR><BR>Why Is It That I Feel That I'm Talking to a Reprint?<BR><BR>Read this, you might pickup on reality.<BR><BR><a href="http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php" target=_new>http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php</a><BR><BR>Semper Fi<BR><BR>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>A story worth reading, and well told.<BR><BR>Thanks for sharing it, and Semper Fi.<BR><BR>Joe

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>I've stayed away from this thread previously, and now I see why. One thing that truly saddens me is how deeply polarized this country is. Look at how close the elections were in 2000 and how close the polls are now - both sides feel very justified in their positions and see the other side as anywhere from simply wrong to truly evil. This is a vintage baseball card board, but feelings are so high on the current state of the world (myself included), that this might as well be a political board, as the level of intensity is equally as strong as I've seen in recent weeks on boards that are devoted to politics.<BR><BR>Hopefully one day we'll all see eye to eye on such things, and to interject my personal point of view, I hope it's on the side of peace, brotherhood and the good of all people; Americans, Iraquis, Iranians, Saudis, French and everywhere else...<BR><BR>I was deeply moved by Fahrenheit 9/11, not that I thought much of Bush beforehand, and think it's more important than anything that he be ousted before he can do even more damage to our country and the world than he already has. Just my two cents. I feel as justified in my point of view that we should work with the U.N., stop attacking countries needlessly, give equal rights to gays and lesbians, stop favoring the rich, stop spending hundreds of billions on the military and spend it on education, health care, social security, funds for veterans, and things that would be actually positive for our country, etc., as some people feel justified in the opposite points of view on things. <BR><BR>Please no attacks, I'm not attacking those who disagree with me, you're all, like I, free to have your opinions. In my heart of hearts I know I'm right, but those who disagree know in their heart of hearts that they're right too. It's an interesting world we live in. Mostly I just pray for peace...

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>How can anyone follow that?<BR><BR>First let me just say this.<BR>Not to worry about baseball, or this baseball forum during these troubled times.<BR>It will survive.<BR>It survived during the 1940's when the people of this country needed it's sublimation and a place to vent.<BR>In a fight for survival we got to see a brand of baseball that never would have been if it had not been for our troubled times then.<BR>My hero on the Yanks was a player by the name of George "Snuffy" Stirnweiss.<BR>A second baseman that in 1945 beat out Tony Cuccinello on the last day of the season with a batting title average of .309.<BR>I got to see Pete Gray, a one arm outfielder play for the STL Browns.<BR>Speaking about the Browns, I got to listen to them play over the radio (no TV then) during the 1944 WS. .... Browns in a series, a rarity.<BR>Baseball is a surviver.<BR><BR>Now let me do a Dave Brubeck, and "Take Five".<BR>Let me lay down my sword and shield and ditto what GaryB said.<BR>No question about it, the tension in this country, on both sides of the aisle, is getting tighter and tighter than the strings of an electric guitar.<BR>I know not how any of the other members of this board vote regardless of party affiliations.<BR>By that I mean, do you always vote a straight party ticket?<BR>Are you totally tied into the party program?<BR>I can only speak for myself, and as I mentioned before, this registered Democrat voted for Barry Goldwater, a Conservative back in 1964.<BR>It's a vote that I never regretted, and would cast again solely based on my convictions for the man.<BR>His standing on Viet Nam was simple.<BR>Get in, or Get Out.<BR>LBJ the Democrat, did exactly what he accused Goldwater would do.<BR>I can still hear the chants:<BR>"Hey - Hey LBJ How Many Kids You Killed Today?"<BR><BR>It took a number of years more for most of the people to grasp the reality of the useless waste being played out.<BR>It was the Viet Cong that kicked us out, and they did us a favor.<BR>What I see being played out is this.<BR>People on both sides of the aisle are beginning to question the spin.<BR>They're loyal Americans, and definitely not lemmings.<BR>You can't keep saying that the war is over, and that we're in control while our men and women have targets on their backs, aand we've lost over 900 KIA's and over 5000 wounded.<BR>You can't keep saying that we did the right thing by deverting our concentration from Afghanistan and invading Iraq.<BR>1. Fifteen of nineteen 9/11 terrorist were Saudis.<BR>2. Now they're letting us know that Iran was a stepping stone.<BR>3. Meanwhile being that the concentration has been in Iraq, the people in Afghanistan have been regrouping and are becoming a factor again.<BR><BR>People are beginning to ask "Why Iraq, and was it worth it?"<BR><BR>I didn't think that I would see the day, but people from both sides of the fence are asking the same question.<BR>We might be more alike than we think?<BR>Maybe there's hope?<BR><BR>I'll vote for that.<BR><BR>Semper Fi<BR>

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Do you REALLY want to know why Bush went to WAR with Iraq??<BR><BR>REALLY??<BR><BR>It was so that all of the billions of glossy foil chrome cards printed from 1990-2002 could now be considered...<BR><BR>"PRE-WAR" cards.<BR><BR>It was a conspiracy led by Upper Deck and Topps and all the other producers. It had nothing to do with oil. It was all about the cardboard.

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Now does anyone feel that Gaylord Perry is a marginal HOFer ?

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>He's in. He got in by a vote of writers. It didn't take a bunch friends in the Veterans Committee to vote him. Doesn't matter if he is marginal or not. He is in. End of dicussion.<BR><BR>If you want to talk about marignal HOFers, lets talk Koufax. Flip his career around and you get Dwight Gooden. Does Gooden also belong?<BR><BR>Jay

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Jay -- As Neil Young said, it's better to burn out than to fade away (at least for Hall of Fame voting).<br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>I have always felt that if you let Koufax in for a great shining career that was ended early by injury, you had to let in Tony Oliva with all his batting championships and great play. I think it's a shame former Twin Kirby Puckett gets in and Tony O didn't, simply because of television and the media in the 90's compared to how coverage was in the 60's. When you ask the star pitchers of the 60's in the American League who was the best hitter they ever faced, it was always "Oliva."

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Oliva was favorite player as a kid and stillone of the greatest hitters I've ever seen play. There are a lot of paralels between Oliva and Puckett, but Puckett has the advantage of playing for 2 championship teams and his famous "Climb on my back" quote from game 6 of the 1991 series. If the Twins had not run up against the Baltimore juggernaut of the late 60s, Oliva might have had a title or 2 too. And we all know how heavy winning title weighs in even though one player can't win it on his own.<BR><BR>Jay

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Perez and Cepeda but no Hodges? Oliva before Santo?

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><a href="http://ucomics.com/boondocks" target=_new>http://ucomics.com/boondocks</a>/

Don Sutton's Shameful Past
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Santo is the one egregious error that the sports writers have made. Santo definately belongs. As stated before, Oliva was my favorite player as a kid, but it doesn't bother me that he is in the Hall. Just wish his knee hadn't given out.<BR><BR>Jay