I like that the argument cards are not or should not be about money is prefaced with a paragraph about being well-off financially and a pool home. Those who do not receive three pensions and do not get their needs taken care of by the taxpayers might understandably have to deal with money at some point as a reality. I like cards as a hobby and not an investment people but there's nothing wrong with other people making money and these frequent screeds are pointless anger.

This quote seems a bit delusional to me. It's not how the market works, and most likely not how your heirs will feel either.

Well, sorry, but they feel the same as me. It is what it is to me, still a hobby. I am well off. But I have other things to do and buy other than cardboard, and someone else's greed doesn't define my hobby.

James, WE GET IT! Damn.

If the cards were purchased well before this recent price runup (which has been going on for a few years now), then there may be some legitimacy to this, but purchasing cards today seems like a big risk if it's considered part of a retirement plan.

I wonder what a financial adviser would say about considering cardboard a part of a retirement strategy. But then again, my guess is there are not many financial advisers with enough hobby know how to really address this. I wonder what percentage of a retirement portfolio would be a "safe" amount of money to tie into cards as an investment vehicle.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jingram058 View Post
When either I or my wife or daughter ever sell them, they will go for whatever like graded examples go for or they won't be sold. Period, end of discussion.


I wouldn't call that delusional. For all we know he could have some pretty "interesting" cards that are raw that people would absolutely pay for. As an overall strategy for all cards, perhaps a bit ambitious.


That reminds me, I need to put together something for my family in case I get hit by a bus in the next couple of days.

TJ - do you practice estate planning? If so, it'd be neat to hear some thoughts you have for card board investing. For example, designating them for inheritance, etc.

Fred, yes over 90% of my cards were purchased before the big covid run-up. I was fortunate they have grown in value significantly. So much so that they now represent the majority of my retirement savings. I do own my own home outright, however, I have no pension or company retirement plan as I am self-employed. I did not plan it that way, but I guess I lucked out to have the chips fall where they may. It will be difficult to part with them some day when money is needed for retirement. Until then, I enjoy my cards very much, take pride in ownership, and love collecting the lesser cards I can afford. Yes, I agree purchasing big cards at today's prices could be more risky than ever before. This past year I have invested what I could into Bitcoin, not big cards. Again, I thank my lucky stars Bitcoin has done well and has a bright future. Between shrewd investments, a little luck, and the smarts to save what I can and not over spend, I should be fine come retirement in a few years.

It's well established at this point both how you feel, and the fact that by nature pretty much all of us are in different situations, or at least span the width of a variety of situations which may or may not play into how we make decisions about our collections.

simple.

i buy cards over $100 , and up, in slabs, b/c i CANNOT tell a trim job of 1/32nd of an inch.

i buy in collector grades (1-5) , i buy the CARD, not the flip, focus on centering
and then corners, AND the slab gives me a bit more comfort that the card is NOT altered.

i only collect major hall of famers, and i really enjoy cracking a card out, (and re-submitting it) if i feel it deserves a higher grade. this is FUN to me.

Well said Mike +1

NM.

Somebody should point out the detail that neither cards nor Bitcoin kick off any income stream let alone one that's likely to grow. Nor are they actually capable of kicking off an income stream. Meaning as financial instruments I wouldn't call either an "investment". Just speculations, and rather rank ones.

:rolleyes:

Now you’ve gone and done it, invoking the “s” word! Going to get a whole bunch of people riled up now!!!

Just doing my part to keep the forum lively.

;)

Why does something have to throw off an income stream to be deemed an investment?

My experience is that financial advisors will suggest 5% to 10% in “alternative assets” is fine. Usually I see that in connection with someone who is trying to push a particular investment, like forestland.

At the moment, while my own percentage tied up in cardboard has declined recently, due to a focus on other assets recently, plus a run up in the price of other assets recently, I still have an uncomfortably high percentage tied up in cardboard. The good news/bad news is that I don’t really need the cardboard for my retirement, and also have never really been focused on the investment element, but every little bit helps.

Because without the element of a potential income stream at some point down the road, a buyer is merely hoping/speculating that another buyer will pay more for the asset without a quantifiable rationale. If any or every such purchase can be dignified as an investment, then there is no way such purchases can be differentiated from putting money down on the ponies, in Las Vegas or on lottery tickets. Yet the latter purchases/bets under standard nomenclature are termed "gambling" not "investment".

There is a lane for the investment "flipping" world that's guided by intelligent speculation, even some based in an established reality of the moment.

During COVID, many people holding onto traditionally "safe" 70/30 - 40/60 stocks/bonds ratio were seeing a give and take of their returns as the market bounced around favoring one or the other.

People getting ahead of trends were banking, especially ones that show themselves enough to be a reliable event. My lane was buying oil/gas stocks when China announced major manufacturing area shutdowns (down) and selling when those areas reopened (up). There were 4+ major fluctuations during the COVID era that led to great returns.

There's room for speculators that don't need a steady supplement to their income from dividends/etc.

To bring it back to cards, I invest in what I consider under-valued graded cards of guys that I feel will make the HOF in my lifetime. Somewhat recently, the 15+ years I spent bidding low and snapping up Jim Kaat RC's paid off extremely well. I didn't consider him an "if" candidate, I considered him a "when" candidate.

I look forward to much of the same with Luis Tiant in the near future.

I found the following definitions of Investment online, searching "Investment defined" on google:


"An investment refers to any asset that is obtained for cost on the grounds that it is expected to provide value in the future that will exceed its initial cost and time to value."

"Investing, broadly, is putting money to work for a period of time in a project or undertaking to generate positive returns (profits that exceed the amount of the initial investment). It's the act of allocating resources, usually capital (i.e., money), with the expectation of generating an income, profit, or gains."

"the outlay of money usually for income or profit" (Merriam Webster)

"the act of putting money, effort, time, etc. into something to make a profit or get an advantage, or the money, effort, time, etc. " (Cambridge Dictionary)

It seems all of the above definitions require the same elements for an investment:
1. Actually laying out money
2. To acquire an asset
3. Intending to make a profit/more money than was laid out

There is no requirement that the asset produce income, rather that the one expects to earn more than they paid for asset.

The difference between cards and "gambling" is that in gambling you are not acquiring an asset/seeking to profit from an asset.

Cards are 100% an asset and I 100% invest in cards (and have done well - its been a good investment).

I’ve said it before, but I’ll repeat it again. I don’t think the speculative term is meaningful when it comes to investments, simply because the line gets really fuzzy at times.

But there’s a definite difference between productive and unproductive assets. Gold, Bitcoin, cardboard, all unproductive assets. Farmland, income-generating companies, etc. fall into the productive bucket.

Certainly there’s nothing wrong with unproductive assets, although some might take offense at the name. Just a different flavor with different characteristics, and a different approach to valuing them. Plus with unproductive assets, you usually can’t get much (economically) from them while you hold onto them. With a productive asset, you might get something while you hold and wait for the right time to sell. But even with productive assets, plenty of them don’t deliver much while you wait for the right time to sell.

As an added challenge, many nonproductive assets, including cardboard, often have ongoing costs to hold them. Even if it’s just storage costs, it’s something. And if you have insurance, the costs are usually more.

Despite not normally generating an income stream, gold (and silver) straddles the line between unproductive and productive. Given its unique characteristics, e.g. the single most malleable plus the single most ductile metal and its complete resistance to corrosion under any natural circumstances, it's a very useful substance. That's why it has several thousand years of history in coinage and decorative applications such as jewellery. And because it's an excellent conductor as well, it now has its uses in high tech electronics as well.

But what's actually most important these days for gold is that its long history in coinage applications has given it cachet as an alternative to government fiat currencies. Therefore when everything goes to hell in a handbasket and government money isn't worth the paper upon which it's printed (that's the history), gold and siver will be the only currencies accepted for transactions. (And of course when everything does collapse and an alternative currency is actually needed, Bitcoin accounts will have disappeared with the internet.)

:(

Don’t forget that Bitcoin has some decorative value too!

Bold to predict that the thing we never shut up about would go nowhere, but if the question is why someone wouldn’t rely on the opinion of a stranger who's trying to sell them the card in lieu of the opinion of a stranger who's not trying to sell them the card, well, that's a bit silly.

I would hope they put more of an effort into grading and authenticating a card worth thousands than they do one worth less than a hundred; though I have no idea if the use more resources for this or not.

I detest grading and crack them all out if I buy one or get it in a trade. PSA is the worst. Aside from being built on a complete lie with the first card, they are incompetent.
Wildly inconsistent grading.

Last week, I sold a card on eBay. It was over 250, so my funds were "on hold" while they "authenticated" it. A week after arriving at the authenticator, I had heard nothing. I got in touch with someone and they were very nice. They said the authenticator noticed a slight stain on the back that I did not say in my description. This is despite my extra large photos of the back and there being no stain!
They said they contacted the buyer and he said he "knew the condition of the card to ship it to him and stop f'ing around so he can get it before Christmas!"

They are supposedly going to authenticate it now. So, there was not even a question of whether it was authentic. Now they are questioning stains and who knows what else. When I bought the card years ago, it was PSA3 with no qualifiers.

Makes me furious

In reference to post #74, I didn't realize ebay or PSA would debate the grade of a card they already slabbed, that's just crazy. What are they going to do, say it's the wrong grade and shoot themselves in the foot (assuming the card is in a PSA slab)? Yes, that would be annoying. It'd be funny as hell if the authenticator determined the card was trimmed and the flip is incorrect (should be an A rather than numerical grade - probably zero chance of that occurring).

The following is from ebay:

The seller ships your card to the authentication facility, where PSA inspects every item. For ungraded cards, PSA experts verify authenticity through a multi-point inspection, and then carefully review listing details for accuracy. For graded cards, PSA experts authenticate each case and label. No regrading is performed.

It would be interesting to see if PSA would start offering grading services for ungraded cards during the "authentication" process. Pay the fee, the card is slabbed, registered, and shipped. I wonder what the turn around time would be for that service.

If I understood campy right, it sounds like he cracked it out long ago, and is reselling it now. But happens to remember the slab it used to reside in. So the current authentication is authenticating a raw card.

Of course, I may have misinterpreted the situation entirely.

You are correct. I don't have any slabbed cards and any that I obtain I crack out. when i bought this card a long tie ago, it was a PS3 with no qualifier.

My contention is that they have had the card since Tuesday morning and have yet to "authenticate" it. I was able to get someone on the phone today to find out what was going on. There was not any question that the card is authentic, but they claim there was a "light stain" on the back that was not specifically listed in the description. There is no stain.

The messaged the buyer and he said he reviewed all of the large pictures I provided and he wanted them to hurry up and ship him the card.

So I guess if you list any card more than $250 on ebay, just having 8 pictures is not enough. You have to inspect it and list any possible flaw in the description. I may just stick to the BST and facebook groups when I have something to sell.

I think raw card authentication bases their condition review off the stated condition in the drop down menu on the listing. If you select Nm or better, or Excellent, etc... they will make sure it meets that threshold. It has saved me thousands in the past where major damage was hidden in the pictures. They caught the damage and reached out to me. I requested pictures of the damage and they sent me close up images of the damage.

You don't have to disclose every flaw, but you do need to select the right card condition. And if it's close, they reach out to the buyer to make sure they are ok with it. Which is a fantastic way to do it for raw cards online. The only downside is time. But a few more days to receive a card is nothing to making sure the buyer is fully informed of the condition.

For the seller, the more information you include the less likely you will run into these delays. Good pictures help inform the buyer, but won't overcome a poor description or choosing the wrong condition level in your listing.

While it's great you take good pictures, that is the old way to make sure condition is as described. Authentication doesn't rely on that now that it gets evaluated in person before shipped to the buyer.

Q: How do you know if someone is a vegan?

A: They will tell you.

Q: How do you know if someone has only raw cards in his collection?

A: He will tell you. Repeatedly.

Update: got a congrats email saying the card was authenticated. Yay!
Now maybe Monday I will finally get paid for a card I sold 13 days ago.

Listen, there’s new people around here all the time, and it’s important that they know about these details, including who is who in our little world. I certainly keep getting emails from people with 1 post whose mates have everything on my want list.

Yes, Elm, but think of what a fine learned piece you would be.

short answer:

https://media.tenor.com/YjPBups7H48AAAAM/6m-rain.gif

One of the biggest things about slabs isn't necessarily the money. Foremost, buying slabbed cards gives more security that you are buying what you paid for - an authentic, unaltered and somewhat accurately graded card.

Absolutely yes, there are tampered with cards in slabs - I do not deny. But I honestly feel the chances of getting what you pay for is better with slabbed cards vs. raw (thru the mail sight unseen).

Attachment 642965

"You see, the beauty of my book is, if you don't have a coffee table, it turns into a coffee table."

Out of curiosity, how would you know if you were wrong (about either assertion)?

Especially on a forum populated by those who worship graded cards.

It probably feels that way sometimes.

But it sure seems like there’s plenty of posts that highlight the follies associated with the imperfect outcomes that come with grading.

At the same time, with the silly prices commanded by some cards simply based on the grade, it’s probably more a function of a slice of players in the market being willing to pay outrageous prices for low pop grades, regardless of the actual card quality. And that probably feels like worshipping.

All very good points indeed. And arm's length card grading by a third party would certainly have its merits. The problem though is the speed at which it's degenerated into abject folly, e.g. the $33,600 that a slabbed Topps 1975 Dave Roberts card just fetched when nigh identical Dave Roberts cards are available anywhere else for $3.36. (Try explaining that to the man-on-the street.)

Sorry, but some of us reserve the right to sneer rather than cheer.

:(

Even those of us that are into graded cards are mostly (entirely?) shocked and appalled by the craziness of the price on that card. Even as a hard core set registry goon, I wouldn't come anywhere close to paying that kind of a premium. Give me a solid PSA 9 for under 1% of that price and that's good enough for me.

What's really silly about PSA 10 graded cards versus PSA 9 graded cards is that if you showed a bunch of serious collectors ten cards broken from their slabs of which two had been graded 10 and eight had been graded 9, only 1 in 45 of those collectors would be able to pick out the two that had been graded 10. Then the other 44 would all argue about why PSA was wrong and how they were right.

Yet certain collectors/speculators are willing to pay mind boggling multiples more for the 10 graded card. They are of course buying the label not the card.

:rolleyes:

Perfectly said and I couldn’t agree more! Too much fraud and bad people in our hobby nowadays to trust anything but graded cards when it comes to resale. I personally would rather collect raw cards however as mentioned above, the trimmed, altered, fake cards have forced my hand to only buy graded. When it comes time to sell, all I need to do is box them up and send them to a consignment company to sell for me then just wait for the check to come in! Can’t really do that with raw cards. Plus with raw cards what’s to say when our families go to a LCS to sell, some greasy fat owner won’t be like “ oh yeah, these 1950s cards are worth like $2 each. I’ll give you $100 for this lot! (I feel it’s better for heirs of cards to send in graded cards to a consignment service vs trying to sell raw cards to a LCS)

Unless the price difference is insignificant or it's the only one I can get my hands on, every 10 I've ever had gets sold to those willing to pay for that slab number.

I'll keep the 8's and 9's when it comes to higher-end grades for my personal collection. I'll let those that chase the 10's pay me for that number.

Many times that pays for almost all (or all) of the cost of grading the other cards in the order.

The fact that newly graded cards have numbers on the flips that are (on average) 2 full grades below their older counterparts should render the whole misguided/corrupt process null and void.

But the sheeple are addicted to the slab and the toothpaste won't go back into the tube. :(

To Hell with card grading and all the stupid BS associated with it. I've had my say about it. To all who like to tell me to give it a rest, so be it, I will. If they're worth more graded to some people, so be it. I don't care.

Good to see you coming around to the idea of professional grading, Jim.

Nah.

I kind of doubt that, given your history. I'd say it's more likely that you will wait a few months and start another thread very similar to this one, or just find various and sundry places here and there on the threads of others to rant and rage about the evils of graded cards.

Don't get me wrong, I could care less. But let's be realistic.

A few months? I will take the under on that.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

This is a very good and observable point.

You're right. When I once again get fed up with the latest whine on this Mecca country club for card grading, I will no doubt flare up again. But until then, feel free to empty your pockets to PSA or SGC and then laugh all the way to the bank getting rich off of the baseball card "hobby".