Originally Posted by packs (Post 2462386)

I'm talking about a general angst that seems to be present among the aging that stretches over a variety of casual interests, like music, movies, sports, etc. I think there's a lot of nostalgia tied up in this dislike of modernity. I realize that the individual preferences that exist within this realm, like what specifically you don't like, are there but I still think it's part of a larger and ever-present trend throughout all of time.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 2462344)

The game isn’t the same for me due to the lack of dominant starting pitching.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2462348)

I think there's a universal tendency for people as they age to think things were better in the past. If you want to see this phenomenon ask anyone over say 50 for their all time great list, it will be heavily slanted and won't have a single player from the past four decades. From my perspective, as long as they don't move the pitcher's mound or the bases, or change 4 balls and 3 strikes, it would be really hard to kill baseball.

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2462418)

I depends on how many you are asking for on the list. Mike Schmidt is regarded as the best 3rd baseman of all time and I have him high on my list. Bench is just outside your cutoff and is considered the greatest catcher of all time. Albert Pujols is a little lower, but with his Angel's years it is hard to put him too high. His first 12 years hold up against everyone short of Ruth. If Griffey Jr and Trout didn't get hurt, they could have been there. If Ohtani or Judge keep putting up numbers like this year, they will rise.

Part of the problem is you had a generation that got caught up in drugs. Guy like Gooden and Strawberry had the talent to be all time greats. Then you have all the steroids guys who have ruined their legacies in many people's eyes.

However, if you look at other sports, that is not the case. My top 10 list for basketball has Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan. For Football, Jerry Rice, Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady with Patrick Mahomes building a resume. For Hockey, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Ovechkin and Crosby.

Maybe the best athletes are no longer choosing baseball as it is no longer the #1 sport in the US. Jackie Robinson probably plays in the NFL if was active today, Bob Gibson is probably in the NBA.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2462431)

But I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone of a certain age who -- with the possible exception of Schmidt -- is going to put anyone from the 1980s forward on their team.

Originally Posted by BioCRN (Post 2462434)

Roids tainted careers ruined this even if one believes the roids era of their careers were short compared to their careers on whole. It's not a hill I would die on to argue that any weren't juicing from day one, though.

Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and ARod are/were (whatever) legends of our 1980s+ modern era. Their performances were all-time greatness in the entire history of the game.

That leaves us with Rickey Henderson who's career is suspected by most to be clean as an all-time legend. Guys like Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux are up there, too. Albert Pujols has the counting stats to be an all-time great, but in all honesty his alarmingly big investment kept him on the field longer than his playing ability.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2462442)

Most people's all time teams are heavily biased in favor of the first 50 years of baseball. Who doesn't have Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig, Hornsby, Wagner, Johnson, Young, and Mathewson on his team? That's 8 out of 12 assuming a four man rotation.

Originally Posted by BioCRN (Post 2462450)

Yeah, I wouldn't argue against including any of these guys and they are all-time legends, but guys from this era are almost impossible to compare.

Cy Young is obviously a legend, but if you were picking a single season to have someone go out and pitch for you would it be Cy Young or Roger Clemens? Would that season be 250-275ip or 400-425ip? Is the pitcher expected to throw 40+ complete games? At the very least you'd have to answer those 2 questions before you would pick one even though one is obviously superior based on the stuff coming out of their arm.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2462431)

It's interesting that there is much more of a nostalgia bias in baseball for some reason. But I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone of a certain age who -- with the possible exception of Schmidt -- is going to put anyone from the 1980s forward on their team. Can it really be that those 4+ decades (1/3 of the history of baseball if you discount the prehistoric years LOL) didn't produce any players worthy of consideration as all time greats?

Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 2462454)

I really think it is the talent levels. My football list starts with Unitas and Brown. Basketball starts with Russell and Chamberlain. I think they pushed their sports forward like Wagner, Cobb and Ruth did for baseball. If I start my list with players who debuted with those four, my baseball list starts with Frank Robinson and includes Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Ken Griffey Jr, Albert Pujols and Mike Trout. My top 5 pitchers are Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Greg Maddox, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. The lists look comparable to with what you see with football and basketball.

The issue becomes when you add another 60 years for baseball with almost all of the best athletes going into that sport. The last 40 years of players for baseball becomes diluted and it looks like it does.

Originally Posted by packs (Post 2462193)

Can you think of some great hit and run players from the past that you admire?

Originally Posted by packs (Post 2462331)

I just feel like you guys are part of this constant, if I may borrow from Lost, where people of a certain age just don't like current things anymore. I feel like you would have been interchangeably annoyed with every new iteration of the game, from catchers wearing pads, to fielders wearing gloves and on up to the 162 game season not being a real 154 gamer or being upset they moved the fences in. I understand the nostalgia that probably drives these feelings. Being a kid is fun and when you realize you've gotten older, you just want things to be like they were when you were a kid. And every new kid isn't getting to experience the best of life like you did. But you're missing out on a lot when you think that way because modern life isn't so terrible either.

Aaron Judge is not Babe Ruth but he did hit 62 homers. If I put myself into the future where I'm asking an older guy about what it was like to see Judge hit 62 homers, I'd be pretty let down if they said they didn't know because baseball wasn't stealing a lot of bases then, so they weren't watching anymore.

Originally Posted by BioCRN (Post 2461870)

As a younger person, I would have flipped out for the streaming games we have now. I'm still a bit amazed how easy the access is for high quality streams.

MLB Players Alumni Association $25 membership. Half off the $140 MLB.tv streaming package. $95 a year for everything (local blackouts apply). This is a golden era of game consumption.

I watch many 100s of hours of games per season and it's awesome. I'm very thankful to live in this era and if/when the era of local blackouts come it should only get better.

Originally Posted by steve B (Post 2463061)

Are you a former player?

Or is the alumni association open to everyone?

Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2462191)

That is annoying but so is the lack of stealing bases, the bunt, the hit and run is almost not part of the game and everyone is going yard each AB. I am not as much of fan of the game as I was.

Originally Posted by Seven (Post 2462890)

I'm not sure if you were referring to me, but I'm 30. Most of the things I'm annoyed with does not effect the product on the field, outside of pitchers no longer going the distance. I still love baseball, I always will. The corporate patches on uniforms and constant gambling adds are something that add nothing to the game, IMO.

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield (Post 2462294)

Peter,

Wow...
Just because he struck out a lot doesn't mean that he only struck out.

My recollection is seeing him batting successfully in hit and run situations, in person. That was in the mid 60's. He could hit and run then. I saw it. But that is also when he was young and coachable. Gene Mauch survived that for a few years, and once Richie settled into being a talented big leaguer he became somewhat less manageable and developed his own sense of self determination (hardheadedness).

Instead of just grabbing a season's strike out numbers to be determinative proof of one's ability to hit and run, pick a couple of seasons, 1964 through 1967, and go to retrosheet.org, I think they'll have a game log for each of his games.

What you will find is that with a runner on first, he was less likely to strike out, and often, if he got any kind of a hit, it was most likely a single that moved the runner to third. And you'll see that he was more likely to strike out with no one on base (when he was trying to muscle a ball over the fence).

Now, when the 1970's roll around, and he became Dick Allen, I think he swung for the fences a bit more often, he was more about self instead of team, and he was not expected to hit and run as often. That was in his later years,

I'm not saying he didn't strike out a lot in those early years, he did. To some extent, in later years, he was out of the lineup more often, and his strike outs were fewer. partly because he didn't swing as wildly in later years, and partly because he was getting fewer at bats.

I saw him wearing the birds on the bat probably 7 or 8 times in 1970. The attitude had set in by then. He had the ability of generating that loud crack that comes from a ball being well hit with the bat's barrel. Or, to paraphrase, he could shatter the ozone with all of his might. I saw him with the Phillies in 1964 and 1965, and the Dodgers after he left the Cardinals. The man had bat control (when neeeded) and could hit and run.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2463092)

steals are WAY up this year.