There is a huge knot of third basemen that should be considered in the Hall of Fame. Their WAR is between around 55 and 70. These include: Nettles, Buddy Bell, Boyer, Bando, Darrell Evans, Ventura, and Hack.

I like WAR in that it gives some context to the era.

In a roundabout way, you're agreeing with me. His season adds up to being really impressive because his contemporaries sucked. If you moved him 70 feet to the right defensively, it would be just another in a long list of MVP-caliber seasons. Again, *50* extra base hits. That's just not impressive number. It was a borderline all-time great season - for a 2B. It's not even remotely in the conversation for greatest overall. Better than EVERY season from Ted Williams? Hard disagree.

That's because you're still hung up over only the traditional numbers. Morgan hit into a total of (without double checking) 5 double plays in those 2 seasons. He stole about 130 bases at an 85% clip and I imagine he stretched a lot of extra bases as a runner, tagging up going to third on a single etc.

Combine that with gold glove caliber defense (In 1975) at a premium position with excellent range vs Ted whose range was what was hit right at him and what Dom could get to in left field and I imagine that Joe was worth more wins to his team in 1975 than Ted in his best season.

Look at it this way. Ted's OWAR was often higher than his WAR. Joe's only was in the second half of his career (amazingly beginning in 1976 which would explain the drop in his total WAR for what appears to be an offensively superior season)

Morgan's best OWAR seasons, while impressive, don't compare with Ted's best. It's just that there's more than offense to the game.

If you want to discuss the best OFFENSIVE players of all-time might I point you in this direction:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=350700

Very well stated, Scott.

I'm not hung up on traditional stats. But extra base hits are waaaaaaaay more valuable than stolen bases. Ted had, for example, 368 total bases in 1949 plus 162 walks. That's 530 bases from the batter's box. Joe had 253 total bases plus 132 walks for 385 total. Give him the 67 steals and he's still nearly 100 behind Ted.

Yes, there's more than offense to the game - but offense and pitching are light years ahead of defense in terms of importance.

Joe had a great year in 1975 (and 76) but, again, 17 homers with a high OBP (.450 or higher) has been done roughly a billion times in baseball history. It's been done more than 20 times since 1949. Looks like 10 times by 2B though Baseball Reference is covering up the results for me. Yeah, what he did was really rare in 1975 - because he was a 2B. We wouldn't be having this conversation if played virtually any other position.

Once Ron Santo Got in I thought for sure Boyer would be next ,
Very similar careers

Oddly, If you look up Boyer, Santo is not even on the list of 10 most comparable batters.

Grich 71 never can get my head around that one.

No second baseman has had a higher career OPS+ than Grich’s 125 since he retired in ‘86. Not Biggio (112), Sandberg (114), Alomar (116), Whitaker (117), Utley (117), Kent (123), or Cano (124).

Note that Morgan (132) retired 2 years before Grich, and Carew (131), who played more games at 1B than 2B retired a year before Grich. Altuve is currently at 129.

Grich was also an elite fielder in his early years.

I know the numbers are what they are for Grich but I have a hard time seeing a career 266 hitter with less than 2,000 hits and 250 home runs as a HOFer.

Yep - find player but not HOFer ,
I remember Grich but only after being reminded 🙂 (Spaeth)
Had to look him up ,
He’s in the Orioles Hall of Fame AND the Angels Hall of Fame !

...and Chris Short is on the Phillies Wall of Fame.

Can they really reconstruct every game way back in time to get to these levels of detail on particular at bats? I mean you couldn't do most of this stuff from a box score.

I've always wondered the same thing about the fielding and base running components of WAR for players more than 20 years ago let alone 100 years ago. I think they do the best they can, but it's why WAR is just one way to try to compare players but not the absolute answer that some people try to claim it to be.

Nettles does not get my HOF vote (not that anyone cares). I saw him play for years, and I hated that he made so many great plays against my Dodgers, but consider this:
1. He never batted .300 or better in any full season, his best being .276 in 78'
2. Career .248 hitter.
3. .225 batting average in 53 post season games.
4. 25 HRs in any season should not be a high bar for a third baseman, yet Nettles accomplished that only five times.
5. Career OBP of just .329.

His great defense and longevity (22 seasons) are what helps is WAR, but his very mediocre offense keeps him out of the HOF.

I agree on Nettles. He joins a long list of Yankees who were great for the Yankees but not quite HOFers and I think that's just fine. It's also important to note that unlike many of his fellow Yankees greats not in the HOF, the Yankees did not retire his number like they did with some of his peers like Bernie, Posada, O'Neil or Pettitte. Though he was a captain.

Grich was one of my favorite players, and I always felt he was underrated. As a 2B in the 70s and 80s, he was one of the best at his position, when many 2Bs were not good offensively.

The thing about Grich was his consistency. In his first 9 major league seasons, he had 3,432 ABs and hit 161 home runs and batted .260.

In his final 8 seasons, he had 3,458 ABs and hit 159 home runs and batted .273.

So that's 17 seasons of averaging around 20 home runs per season and batting around .265!

IMO, that's a great player, particularly for a second baseman in the 1970s / 80s.

Is he HOF worthy? Probably not, but a great player nonetheless.

Steve Garvey is an interesting case study. Is he HOF worthy? I think he is. I saw him play his whole career, and although I think it is a close call, he should be in the HOF. I offer the following for consideration:

1. I spoke to Garvey once and he said he could have hit around 30 home runs more often, but he would have struck out more and had a lower BA. he said that hitting for power would have hurt the team's chances of winning, and he valued winning games over his personal stats. And we all know that his teams won a lot!

2. Stat geeks that look at overall career numbers and WAR as well as people who never saw him play are not aware that he was a great clutch hitter! He consistently helped his team win games!
- In 55 post season games, he batted .338 with 11 home runs and 32 RBIs in 222 at bats. How many players can match that???
- batting average with RISP in 1974 - .330
- batting average with RISP in 1975 - .302
- batting average with RISP in 1976 - .297
- batting average with RISP in 1977 - .311
- batting average with RISP in 1978 - .320
- batting average with RISP in 1979 - .322
- batting average with RISP in 1980 - .315
- batting average with RISP in 1981 - .325
- batting average with RISP in 1982 - .291

For me, he was the best clutch player of his generation!

3. Garvey's 2,599 base hits ranks 84th all time! With that many hits, he should be in the HOF, particularly when you consider all of his other intangibles including clutch hitting, durability, his five MVP awards (1974 season MVP, two all-star game MVPs, and two post season MVP awards), and four gold gloves. How many players with that many hits are NOT in the HOF? Only a handful. Unfortunately, his late career start (he was not a regular player until age 25) and the shortened 1981 season due to the player's strike cost him a lot of hits.

4. Garvey was a 10 time all-star! C'mon, when you hear that, you gotta think HOF! He was the National League's starting first baseman in the all-star game for seven straight seasons (1974 - 1980), and he also started for the NL in 1984 and 1985. he was the all-star game MVP 2x (74' and 78'). So for those who say he was overrated or was not a good player, the fans who voted and his performance in those games say otherwise! This was a time with no internet and a limited number of ballots were handed out to fans who had to return them.

5. He played in Dodger stadium that had different playing field dimensions than currently exist. In 2004, they added several thousand seats behind home plate and along the base lines that removed 10,000 square feet of foul territory (a full one third reduction of foul territory!). Hence, the stadium is somewhat neutral in terms of hitting, but in Garvey's time, it was decidedly a pitcher's park. So offensive numbers were suppressed.

6. During Garvey's seven prime years (1974-1980), he had 200 or more hits each season except one (192 in 77'), he batted .311, averaged 161 games, averaged 103 RBIs per season and hit an average of 21 home runs.

7. In his 1981 book, Lawrence Ritter listed him as one of the 100 greatest players of all time.


Garvey's true value, which often gets overlooked, was that he consistently produced runs for his team and hit for a very high average. In other words, he valued hitting for average and driving in runs over hitting home runs. Remember, he grew up in the 1950s and 60s when batting average was more important than hitting lots of home runs. That's why his strikeout numbers were always low (he averaged just 70 strikeouts per season during his prime years).

I found a thread on Garvey here
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=247372

I kind of agree about Garvey - not real similar to Rose as a player but both were spark plugs and both were good in the post season .
When Rose was on the Reds were good When he was on the Phillies the Phillies were good .
Garvey was good for the Dodgers went to the Padres and was good with the Padres .
For his career he batted .338 in the postseason
Edit :Gregndodgers Already noted his postseason batting average

I don't see a HOFer in Steve Garvey either. Don Mattingly was better than him and he's not getting in.

Garvey is one of those guys who has a "HOF resume" but he's not the only player with one not in the HOF. Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs, has three ERA titles, and a pitching Triple Crown. Sounds like a HOF resume alright but in practice he didn't even survive his first ballot when it came to HOF voting.

Garvey's chances were hurt by his well-documented off field problems. However, I still believe the veterans committee (or something akin to that) elects him into the HOF. He is currently running for to be a U.S. Senator from CA.

So far, he's been on 4 different veteran's committee ballots, and didn't get enough votes to be reported the first 3 times. In 2020, he got 6 out of 16.

War 38. Ops .775. Obp .329. HOF no. That said, his RC will always enjoy some popularity.

When I was a kid in SoCal during the 70's, Steve Garvey was big time. He was the leader of the Dodgers (darn good team). Won the 1974 MVP. And I collected his cards mostly because he always has that nifty "All-Star Logo" on his cards. Only the All Star starters got that All-Star banner/shield/star on their cards.

That was back in the day before Rookie Cards became so dang popular. As kids, the heck with new rookies who you had no clue about. They were tossed aside into the commons box. As kids we all wanted the cards of the top shelf players.

Garvey was the best at his position for a long time. To me, that is a criteria for HOF.

Garvey wasn't just an All-Star. He was the STARTING All-Star for 8 consecutive years - 1974, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 & 1981.

Put the dude in (HOF).

Yogi Berra has a surprisingly low WAR compared to other top shelf catchers. I kinda don't get it. Everybody loves Bench, he has the highest WAR. But all things considered, I might take Yogi as my #1 all-time catcher. What he did for the Yankees was beyond amazing - the leadership, the handling of the pitching staff, his knowledge of the game, he made his whole team better. And yeah, he also had some pretty darn solid stats. I think he is recognized as the most winningest player in MLB history.

Just looking at Steve Garvey’s MVP season.
Wow, he really didn’t deserve that award. A dozen other guys deserved it ahead of him. Garvey didn’t lead the League in anything and barely cracked the top 10 in many categories.

Schmidt, Bench, Wynn were WAY more deserving.
Garvey may have been one of the most overrated players while playing ever.

Phil Rizzuto - 42 War OPS 706 - Never say never.

That an argument for Garvey is his OPS is a little higher than a defense first shortstop tells one everything they need to know about why Garvey is a poor candidate.

As long as you did not face him in the Post Season.

8 consecutive years starting All-Star - nope. But we have Harold Baines in there. Something just doesn't seem right.

Garvey's post season numbers make him an interesting candidate. He was a dominant player in his era which was not a great offensive era.

He really was not. He topped out at a 138 OPS+, which for a 1B's best season is pretty low. He did not actually dominate his era outside of the hearts of his fans. 117 OPS+ is pretty average for a 1B.

I am not saying it isn't so, but what actual evidence do you have of his leadership, handling of the pitching staff, and knowledge of the game?

Yogi: He played catcher. Could be most important position, so the better your overall all around play, the better your teams chances of victory. He won a lot. He went on to become a decent manager. This often shows leadership and high knowledge of the game. MLB Commissioner, Rob Manfred, "Yogi was renowned as a Great teammate." Also a real plus off-the-stat sheet quality.

Garvey had a career .996 fielding % at First, an MLB record. Garvey also played 193 consecutive errorless games at First Base, another MLB record. And is the only player in the history of baseball to have played an errorless season at the position.

-11.6 dWAR

We could probably identify pretty easily 15 1B better than Garvey that haven't made the Hall of Fame. Whether you use analytics or traditional stats, he's nowhere near as good in the math as his fans say if you just look at his numbers.

I have always been surprised with Juan Marichal's low WAR of 61.8 with his 6 20 victory seasons and 2.89 lifetime ERA. Luis Tiant has a WAR of 65.6 and I would not place him in Marichal's level.

Who was a better than him in the National League at 1B from 74 to 80? While he topped out at a 138 OPS+, Garvey had seasons of 130, 134, 133 and 130 during that span.

So there wasn't the finest crop of NL first basemen in the late '70s.
But Stargell was better in '74, the year Steve Garvey won his MVP.
Hernandez was better in '77, '79 and '80.
Bob Watson was a better hitter from '75 thru '77.
Pete Rose was just as good in '80.

Steve Garvey was consistent, but never amazing.

Hernandez was easily the better player from '77 thru '80. Hernandez' OPS+ was several points higher than Garvey's, and he was a much better fielder.

Hernandez was only a Rookie in '75 and only had 188 at bats, so its not a fair comparison for '74 and '75.

Who was a better catcher in the AL than Bill Freehan from the mid 60s to the mid 70s? It's not that meaningful, all depends on the competition at the time.

I am sure there was a long stretch when Bert Campaneris was the best SS in the AL. And what of it?

Charles handles this in 88, but even if we just assume Garvey was the best 1B in a period of 6 selected years - how does that mean he dominated the league? Garvey did not, in any way using metrics ancient or modern, dominate the league. That is a clearly false claim, which was the claim made.

C'mon, admit it-- you don't like him just because he was a Spartan :) Old habits die hard.

It took him until 2010 to make THEIR HOF lol.
https://msuspartans.com/news/2010/9/...ve_garvey.aspx

Grich
 

Peter- His WAR is directly related to the lack of offense from all other second baseman in the AL. In 1974 Grich hit 19 homers. I would bet the other 13 starting second baseman in the AL had a hard time hitting 19 total. The position was filled with .260 hitters with .310 OBP and .310 slugging numbers.

Willie Stargell was an outfielder that year. He played one game at First Base the whole season. Your other arguments are a stretch.

Sorry, I meant Willie Stargell had a higher OPS+ in 1975, 1977 and 1978, and 1979 and 1980 (all while a first baseman).
Yes, I realize Stargell had fewer at bats.

As for Garvey being a better hitter than Hernandez from '77 -'80. Please make your case with numbers, not fanboy feelings.

I always believed Alfonso Soriano was much better than his WAR indicated. WAR by itself, is a flawed statistic however.

Like many of the other players with similar comments, he had a low OBP because he didn't walk much and he was not rated well on defense with a -10.1 dWAR for his career.

Hard to understand Rick Reuschel's place in the WAR pantheon too. He finished with 69.5, good for the 106th best WAR of all time. Baseball-Reference ranks him as the 32nd best starting pitcher of all time.

Does anyone really believe that?

Here's what makes no sense to me. On the four individual metrics that BR uses, he is pretty terrible, but when it comes to JAWS he vaults up to 32nd. What is the explanation here?

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Pitching - 7 (440th), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 111 (232nd), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 49 (290th), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 31 (156th), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (32nd)