Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

33 years of grading cards. It adds up.

I’ll take that bet that they won’t sell for a premium! I don’t think collectors will want to pay a premium for cards that have been suspected of being altered, soaked in an unknown chemical or tap water, mislabeled, stolen, or suspected of being doctored. However, I do believe that everyone would appreciate the disclosure on cards before they buy them.

100% agreed. My guess (total guess by me just going by auction catalogs & social media), I think somewhere between 33% to 50% of medium to higher graded PSA encased cards have been altered. Getting harder to tell nowadays since scanned card images have photo settings boosted like brightness,, contrast, blur, etc…

That’s part of the reason why comparing before & after pics of cards in diff slabs are very difficult & that’s even before taking into account the diff source image resolutions. For people who don’t know, there’s a lot of coding & math behind images & PDF that get even more complicated / distorted when you resize & save as diff formats. That’s why simple animated gif comparisons don’t usually work

It’s like Kelso’s quote from the film Heat.

* Neil McCauley : how do you get this information?
* Kelso : It comes to you, this stuff just flies through the air, they send this information "beamed" out over the f’in place, you just got to know how to grab it, see, I know how to grab it.

In this case, knowing where to “grab it” is social media. Higher positioned people in the hobby post pics all the time of altered cards whether they unknowingly bought older cert PSA slabbed cards that way or not.

BUT BUT BUT...The upcharges are for insurance for things like this..:D:D:D:D:D

What a scam. Sorry about this Nicolo. I know how much you enjoy their registry but I'd say F you to them for good and pull your shit off that stupid site too.

First, let's be clear. I don't alter cards. I use distilled water. I don't know what's in Kurt's card spray, but I don't use that or "unknown chemicals" to soak my cards.

Do I have your permission to use your logo to make some little stickers that I can apply to some slabs? Similar to the PWCC stickers. Should be a fun experiment. You can add them to your spreadsheet. I'll even send you the before vs after scans myself to save you some time.

The guarantee is BS. Bill Mastro admitted in court that he trimmed the PSA 8 Wagner and went to jail for it, yet it is the crown jewel in the PSA crown. If that doesn't get a card de-certified, nothing will. When it was public, PSA had to disclose its reserves for bad grades and the numbers were laughably low as compared to the potential liability for just the one card. And it is so, so unbiased to have the person accused of missing the grade also be the one who reviews the work. Yeah, I wish I could get that deal for my work.

The thing PSA counts on is that challenging its decision requires a lawsuit and most cards are not worth paying a lawyer to fight over. Plus, if you were to sue, you'd need to present either eyewitness testimony from the card doctor or expert testimony to debunk PSA's opinion. As to the former, good luck with that. Mastro admitted what he'd done as part of an allocution designed to get him less time in the can. Otherwise, he'd never have said a word. As to the latter, you end up having what lawyers call a 'whore fight" between experts and the only certainty of that is expenses.

The more interesting question, unfortunately, is what to do, assuming that the card no longer is desired. PSA says the card is good. Do you accept that decision and sell it as is? Sell it with a recitation of what happened? Not sell it? I don't know the answer, fortunately.

You need to buy this 1954 Topps Mays PSA 8.5 and put your sticker on it. Like they say go big or go home. PSA had the Wagner and you could have the Mays.

If he wants to sell it at a discount because he's no longer happy with it, I'll gladly buy it and consign it for a profit if it makes him sleep better at night.

I get that this stuff is disheartening to learn about at first, but once you realize that it's not just that one card in your collection or that handful of cards, or even that long list of cards posted to the BODA threads but rather it's the overwhelming majority of the entire sum total value of cards in this hobby, then it changes your perspective. Tens of millions of cards have been cleaned or altered in this hobby. We all have them. There's just no escaping it. It is what it is. If you're not OK with that, then this isn't the hobby for you.

Granted there are oodles of altered cards residing in numbered slabs. But I think you are overstating the number just a bit. Why even have an "altered" disclaimer if the numbers you state are somewhat close to reality?

And the Mays in question is particularly unnerving because it's had a fake substance added to the card. It's not just a cleaning, soaking or other attempt to get the card back to a normal state. The nefarious addition of color is a permanent "scar" that is irreversibly intrusive (and in no way acceptable to even the most ardent TPG apologists).

Just to be clear, your Instagram is jackies_and_jordans?

Is removing stains altering cards?


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I get snowman is an easy target. He puts himself out there but going after him is like the police arresting the corner guy instead of the boss. Didn’t you read my post above? You’re not looking at the big picture. There are well-known people in the hobby who keep displaying altered cards & images going by your definition.

Additionally, you haven’t addressed the scanned image debacle.

PSA Guarantee on a doctored card
 

I’m not targeting snowman/jackie_and_jordans. He comments on my posts and mentioned me here. He even direct messaged me.

If you see someone post an altered card, then tag, email, or message me and I will add it to the altered card database.

I’m not qualified to address scanner settings, as I have no experience in the field or know much about them. You have stated that you do. Therefore, you should be pointing out it out and trying to educate people about it.


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No, of course not. That's a stupid question. And every grading company agrees, as evidenced by their actions, despite what you may think their policies are based on some PR social media response they might put out to assuage you and others of your ilk.

The grading companies know that the majority of collectors think cleaning cards is perfectly acceptable. They also know that a significant faction of the hobby is comprised of people like yourself who are vehemently opposed to it, because some people just fear the boogeyman. They know the hobby is divided. Their goal is to play the middle. They don't want to pick sides. They don't want to alienate a significant proportion of their customers. That's why they put out all the double-speak. One minute you have Peter from SGC saying, "as long as there is nothing physical remaining on the card that we can detect, then it's OK" and Ryan Hoge effectively endorsing Kurt's Card Care one week by saying, "we know that Kurt's Card Care was used on the Wemby 1 of 1 but we're going to stand by our assessment of the card" and then decertifying one of Kurt's submissions the next week and Ryan saying he doesn't like people "manipulating" cards in his interview with Geoff Wilson. They're trying to appease everyone. They're trying to play the middle, and apparently they're doing it well.

But at the end of the day, their true policy is only measurable by their outcomes. They know the Gretzky Wagner was trimmed because Mastro testified to it under oath, and yet they haven't decertified it. They also know that every single 1986 Fleer sticker card that has ever been submitted to them without wax on back has had that wax removed, because ALL 86 Fleer stickers come with wax on them. Not some. ALL. They also know that all these old 1914 cracker jack cards that don't have stains on them have been cleaned, yet they still grade them as numeric. The same with all the old hot dog cards without the hot dog water stains. They know they were cleaned, yet they still grade them. The same with all the 48 Leaf cards with non-foxed borders. They know how acidic that card stock is and how that affects foxing over time, yet they give numeric grades to those cards every time knowing they've been conserved (and the same is true with other sets printed on high wood pulp fiber card stock). They also know when a card was soaked to remove it from a scrapbook every time a vintage card gets submitted with glue residue and surface abrasions on the back. Yet they allow that as well. Numeric grade every time. Sometimes even relatively high grades like with Orlando's now infamous pre-war boxing card (which most definitely did show evidence of having been removed from a scrapbook at the time of submission yet still received a 6). I could give endless examples of cards that you and your friends should all take issue with (if you're being consistent with your criticisms) but that are completely standard practice in this hobby and always have been.

At the end of the day, the fact of the matter remains, whether you like it or not, that it is acceptable to clean and soak cards in this hobby, as long as you're not using some harsh chemicals that alter them in some way (like soaking cards in a bucket of bleach, leaving them brittle and faded).

There are perfectly safe ways to clean and restore a card that do not damage them at all and that do not leave anything behind on the card, and that do not affect the integrity of the card stock. Just because you don't know how it can be done doesn't mean it can't be. And furthermore, when done properly, it even preserves and prolongs the lifespans of those cards.

You can try to change the discussion back to, "that's fine, but what I'm demanding is just disclosure", but we all know that's a bullshit red herring. What you really want is anyone who views this topic differently from you to be kicked out of the hobby. You want them publicly tarred and feathered. You want them all to be "canceled". But if cleaning cards, removing wax, and soaking cards to remove them from scrapbooks are acceptable practices in this hobby, then there is nothing to disclose when doing so because these acts do not have a material effect on the value of the cards. And you can't just say that it's OK to remove wax from this card but not from that one, or that it's OK to soak this card on water but not that one, or that it's OK for cards manufacturers to remove stray ink marks from the backs of player signed cards caused by athletes stacking them before they dry while signing (and yes, they ALL do this using rubbing alcohol) but it's not OK for a collector to do it. You have to be consistent.

I rarely agree with Travis :D but he is right on this issue. Proper conservation and cleaning of cards is just as important and as valid as it is with any other paper work of art. As long as it does not harm the card, it is fine. In some cases, it may become critical to the preservation of the item.

So yes you are jackies_and_jordans and no you don’t think removing stains is altering if done your way, but if done the “wrong way” then it is altering. That’s what I got from your response.
Then you went on a long tantrum. Let’s focus back on what you claim is your acceptable cleaning method for removing stains from cards.

On here you just stated you use distilled water. Why on my Instagram post, that showed a stained removed on a card you sold, did you flip flop all over the place about how the stain was removed?

You first said it was soaked in kryptonite. Then said it was just the scanner settings. Then said you rinsed the dirt off with ordinary tap water and it was the scanner settings. Then blocked everyone that questioned the methods you said you used. Seems like a lot of unnecessary BS if you just soaked it in distilled water.

In fact, I even stated that if it was just distilled water then we wouldn’t even be having a debate about the card. In your repeated post you referenced water, but never once mentioned distilled water.


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Snowman just came back from 'quitting the board' after he transparently made up a lie about another member during a tantrum and couldn't come up with a way to weasel out of it. You aren't going to get to get consistency or anything approaching honesty from him. His lies are so inconsistent and poorly done that even most of the other people who are against honesty and disclosure have to abandon him in these threads.

The altered card database is fantastic.

Do you think museums are going to restore paper works of art using unknown substances and chemicals, made in some guys basement, bought and used by someone on the internet with no knowledge about the type of paper or training on what to do other than watch a YouTube video??? lol.

Proper conservation and cleaning of paper work of art needs to be done using proven chemicals and methods, done by trained professionals, and documented and disclosed on the provenance. If this was done with cards, then I don’t think most people in the hobby would have a problem with it.


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If you want to discuss and make accusations against specific individuals (me) or companies, then you can abide by the rules in play here and post your name publicly like everyone else if you want to have a discussion. Otherwise you can kindly f off. I'm not going to entertain an anonymous troll who never answers my questions but always demands answers to hers, and who always conducts herself disingeuously.

And in the meantime, maybe go buy yourself a scanner and figure out how they work before making ignorant accusations against people based on differences between scans.

Captain disingenuous is back. I said I was done with that thread, not the entire site. Looks like I may soon be done with this thread too if it turns into the same circle jerk crew as the last one.

Interesting that he has been exposed as a liar on here. Which makes me wonder why anyone would believe anything he says?

I’m glad you enjoy the database. It is an educational tool to help collectors find out more information about a card quickly and easily.


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We can only hope you do. Still awaiting that evidence for your claim about Lorewalker, Captain Caught In A Lie Every Thread.

Go find a single post where I lied. Just one. I'll wait. And post my question I posed to Lorewalker while you're at it since you keep lying about what I said.

It's very easy to do.

Here you are claiming Lorewalker is lying about his identity. You've been asked for evidence several times, but you had a tantrum and left instead when nobody was having your bullshit. Still awaiting the proof :rolleyes:.

Here we go again with the smoke and mirrors. If you like , then I can post all the screen shots to support what I have mentioned above.

I am not trolling you, you brought up my name. If you don’t want to interact with me, then it’s a good idea to not mention me.

I’m happy to continue to have a respectful and honest dialogue with you about labeling cards that have been identified on the altered card database with stickers. After all you believe it will increase their value. However, if we are going to partner on this, then we should both have a better understanding as to what each of us believes card altering is.


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Thank you for posting what I actually said. Now carry on with your bullshit accusations.

No, you can't, and you know it. That's why you never post here. Because you won't post your real name and you know the rules here dictate that if you want to cast accusations against specific people or companies that you must post your real name along with it. And your entire online existence as "Tiffany Cards" is to run around anonymously, casting false accusation after false accusation against anyone and everyone you disagree with.

It’s right there in black and white. You falsely claimed he is lying about his identity. You refuse to provide evidence and instead say the transcript is a bullshit accusation. You are such a piece of shit liar lol

This might be a stupid question but when PSA does a review ,
And I am referring to the Raulus card that was touched up -
Do they crack it out of the case and inspect it ?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the circumstances and the card in question.

Bullshit. Go read my quote again.

I implied that I believed he likely uses a different name off this forum. And I posed it as a question giving him the opportunity to respond, and asked if he had something to hide.

For the record, I still believe that he uses a different name elsewhere. Am I right? Who knows. But that's quite different from what you keep running around claiming I said.

I know you are not actually illiterate. You did not accuse him of using a false name elsewhere, you explicitly say “here.” You also use the quotes to accuse his name here on Net54 as being the false alias. Your question presupposes the use of a false name “here”, asking why somebody doesn’t post their real name is saying they are using a false name. You are so bad at lying - if you are going to be a piece of shit liar do it in ways that are not easy to catch or be asked to show the evidence for your wild claims. You just get mad and then make some wild claims that are blatantly false and then try to deny the transcript that anyone can read and see you are lying yet again.


Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
By the way, "Chase Antley", why don't you post your real name here? Got something to hide

80 posts without a card ?
 

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/204295...NGLING_NEW.JPG


,..The Hill School , in Pottstown , PA. A moody disgruntled J.D. Salinger changed the name to " Pencey Prep" in "Catcher In The Rye", ;;. Exclusive and expensive so it was the perfect school for the Pottsville PA. Yuengling Brewing Company's owner's sons. Here is "Swede" Yuengling , Pottsville's Pride . One of my favorite finds ; I currently live halfway between Pottstown and Pottsville , a very old part of Penna. , and sometimes you come across some neat stuff at estate sales and antique shops over the last 40 years.

..

Let's cut the bullshit.

I said, "By the way, "Chase Antley", why don't you post your real name here? Got something to hide?"

I continue to believe that he uses a different name elsewhere. I'd even wager money on it. Note that people use different names in different areas of their lives all the time. When I was told I had to put my name in my profile to talk about other people or companies on this forum, I used the name that I go by most. My friends and family all call me "TJ". Then for some reason, Leon later added "Travis" to my profile. Lots of people go by their middle names or nicknames in one setting and their first names in another. The entire point of us all having to post our names when we discuss people and companies is so that we know who, in real life, is behind any statements or accusations being made here. I believe that Lorewalker uses a different name here than the one he uses elsewhere, or in his professional life because he wishes to skirt around the rules so that he doesn't have to be held responsible for what he says here in his real life. Does he have an ID that has the names "Chase" and "Antley" on it? Sure, he very well might. Could I be wrong in my accusation that I think he uses a different name in the "real world"? Sure, I could. But none of that would matter with respect to the bullshit you keep spewing. It's still quite different from what YOU continue to claim over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over throughout this forum that I "lied" about Lorewalker and made an explicit claim that Lorewalker is in fact lying about his identity. I don't think he goes by "Chase Antley" in the "real world". Define those however you want. I may be right or I may be wrong, but I have good reasons for believing it and I'm entitled to my opinions.

Man that’s terrific piece of breweriana ,
And since the weekly unstoppable shit show has run this thread off into a negative path I guess it’s OK to run it off into a positive path -
Have you nailed down a date for that ? , I’m thinking it’s in his earlier school years 1931 or 1932

We'll just assume everything in this post, even what doesn't mesh with the prior posts, is 100% true. Yeah most people have a nickname. Our real name is, you know, still our real name. So the new explanation is that a "real name" is being covered up if a person uses.... their actual real name :eek:

If you cut out your over the top claims you would get so much support. You have an audience that largely is seeking to justify beneficial frauds and non-disclosures and so is dispositioned to your justifications for it. This message people will largely back is so often followed up by absurdly stupid claims and justifications for what are clearly untruths you've made while upset and you can't support, that it derails your agenda. If you just stopped making things up and appealing to your own authority about everything under the sun you would get a lot of backing.

I don't want to offend anyone or break any terms of services, so I changed the username and profile pic.

I said this 5 years ago and was laughed at...:D

"It's ALL a Billion Dollar Fraud". Pretty funny in retrospect, huh?

I agree to some extent. In one of my other hobbies alterations are very discouraged except in certain instances. In one of those part of the item is highly acidic and will destroy it eventually and has probably already done damage. It is expected, and nearly required that it will be altered.

I think some of our cards may already be doomed, specifically most of the strip cards which are printed on very rough stock that tends towards high acidity. many are already fragile, and will never get better. Being conserved by deacidification is the way to go, but that won't happen.

He was clearly mocking you on IG. This conversation is going around in circles.
Isn’t it time to take the highroad and move on?

If someone wants to challenge my statements, then I felt an obligation to validate them. I have repeatedly taken the high road and continue to do so. I don’t seek him out, send him messages, mock him, or try to insult him. Instead of telling me to move on and take the high road, maybe you should try talking with your friend.


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https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Topps-....m43663.l10137

By the way, I believe I have discovered why the Topps '54 Mays card the OP alludes to was originally graded a 7. That "scratch" on his arm isn't a scratch at all, but actually a print variation! I noticed this same condition on my card and another one from a closed listing on eBay (see link above).

This print variant has been posted in the never ending variants thread. It is actually quite common. Was it a DP ?

I'm not sure what the context of "DP" is. If that is in reference to a double-print, I had no idea there were any in the 1954 Topps issue. The only reason I brought up the "scratch" was that is was mentioned in post 26. It does seem to be a common variation. By my count from eBay listings, there appears to be a 5:1 ratio for normal Mays cards vs. the print variations.

I won't vouch for Geoff Wilson as he is equal to nails on a chalkboard, however some interesting discussion on the "PSA Guarantee" by PSA President Ryan Hoge. Seems to go against everything we see when it comes to this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfuICkhi4s

Feel free to skip to 17:21 where Hoge justifies upcharges to cover the cost of the "guarantee"...hmm.

I need to finish watching the video. The PSA upcharge & high grading fees remind me of car, home, & life insurance where it seldom pays off but when it does, it’s nice to have. Insurers still taken more than they pay
out 🤷.


For me the PSA guarantee does explain their extremely strict consistent grading since Turner & Hoge took over (last couple years). I haven’t heard of too many payouts, but they did in this specific case with Al (major player in the soccer card hobby). Really interesting video

https://youtu.be/MAOe35gNd74?si=P_ROY4ARfbVmooQy

I may be in the minority, but those comparisons aren't really that good. There are some spots that just don't match up between the two grades. As a matter of fact, in the box with the player below the word "Inside Baseball", there is a spot that isn't on the '7' that magically appears on the 8.5. Why would someone add a spot like that?? I'm not convinced that is the same card.

Look below his arm where the glove is.

I recently went through this process and PSA paid me
 

Please see the video that I posted about it on YT...

https://youtu.be/MAOe35gNd74?si=cYGMp-W8Ha6r_AFW

Thanks for sharing. Glad to see that you ended up with a great result. At the same time, it just makes me a bit more irritated that they didn't seem willing to go there with my card.

I suppose there's always the possibility that the BODA investigator got it wrong, although the detail provided by BODA seems awfully convincing, so it's hard to feel real confident that PSA isn't just gaslighting me.