Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2338235)

The overwhelming majority of high grade vintage cards are altered, without question. Marshal Fogel's entire collection, just about, has been trimmed or was cut from a sheet. His MBA black diamond 52T Mantle PSA 10 is almost certainly sheet cut.

Originally Posted by jchcollins (Post 2338335)

Not saying you’re wrong, but would be interested in a bit more evidence to back that claim up? How specifically do you know that his PSA 10 ‘52 Mantle (there are 2 others that Fogel doesn’t own…) is trimmed? I would agree that a card like that in a 10 is suspect if nothing else - but this is the first accusation I’ve seen on that particular card.

Sheet cut, trimmed or not - Fogel’s collection is pretty insane. It kills me how he shuffles his slabs around like playing cards, no sleeves. I bet they are all scratched to hell.


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Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2338595)

I don't have any first hand knowledge or anything like that. It's just my opinion based on how I believe most of these vintage 10s come to market and the likelihood that a card that perfect ever came from a pack. Anything is possible, but far more sheet cut cards make their way into PSA slabs than most people think.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2338595)

I don't have any first hand knowledge or anything like that. It's just my opinion based on how I believe most of these vintage 10s come to market and the likelihood that a card that perfect ever came from a pack. Anything is possible, but far more sheet cut cards make their way into PSA slabs than most people think.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 2338606)

I agree that many very high grade, pre war cards have likely been altered. But it’s not just high grade cards. How about perfectly centered 52 Topps Robinsons? If those are so tough to find centered, I wonder how many of the ones that are centered are that way unnaturally. Surely high grade cards are not the only altered cards sitting in slabs….

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter (Post 2338673)

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter (Post 2338673)

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

Originally Posted by Dead-Ball-Hitter (Post 2338673)

I don't think it will ever happen again, but suppose we all only purchased cards in person, upon inspection, like in days days pre-internet.

You want a card, so you determine its condition, whether or not its altered, and whether or not you even care! Each dealer has a light and a magnifier available and together you decide the sales price. What would the TPGs do if we all decided to simply decide for ourselves? Then again, I'm sure some would feel intimidated by the prospect of not having an independent opinion.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2338677)

I wish the TPG’s would disappear, but rewinding time to before the internet is not even vaguely realistic.

Originally Posted by jchcollins (Post 2338754)

Agreed. I started collecting in 1986, and by the time I learned some rudimentary things about the cards that came before me - and almost immediately started pining for vintage cards of HOF'ers that I had no idea where to find - I realized that you were at the mercy of whatever shop or show you could get to that might be somewhat proximate to your physical location. Both with baseball cards (including many that turned out to not be rare at all...) and even non-sport things like Garbage Pail Kids (you'll excuse me, I was 8 in 1985...) in some cases I looked for certain things for YEARS before the internet.

The physical only days I'm sure had their benefits, but the market as a whole for many things - including old cards - was in many cases very poorly allocated before the internet. I found online auctions as a junior in college in 1998 or so, and almost immediately picked up some cards I had desired for what seemed like forever, but I had never found. I remember a '53 Topps Yogi Berra was one of them.

While I assume that comment was meant to be wistful / kidding, I have no desire to go back to an era where the only option to get cards is if you do it in person. Don't get me wrong, I prefer to buy in person if at all possible. But the selection based on what we know is possible in the 21st century now would probably be pretty disappointing across the board.

Originally Posted by g1911 (Post 2338757)

i missed the glory days of the hobby, i wish i could get things for 80’s prices! But at the same time, there is no way i’d have even the humble little collection i do have if i was restricted to local dealers, writing letters, and ads in hobby periodicals. So much of my favorite stuff in my collection hadn’t even been discovered then. Good and bad in every era, but among all the scams and frauds and incompetent hobby authorities, there’s a ton of good stuff. Unprecedented and easy access to everything, more known vintage cards than ever before, better quality and depth of research and knowledge. There’s much good.