If there is any statistical study that has ever been done showing anyone but Ruth as #1, I have never seen or heard of it.

Starting his age 24 season, Ruth had ..... wait for it .... 20 HR.

Bob Feller faced Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio and Mickey Mantle. I asked him once at a card show who he disliked facing the most of the three. He said Dimaggio had the best numbers against him, Mantle wasn't worrisome and Gehrig "scared the hell out of me!" Couldn't help but laugh when he said that.

Very true, and not to take away anything from DiMaggio at all, but he played a much shorter overall career than Feller, Spahn, and Williams. The closest was Feller, who played 18 seasons to DiMaggio's 13 season career, and that's counting the very partial 1945 season for Feller as one of those 18.

And even if you add in the average of three years worth of hits and home runs from his best and most productive seasons, it looks like DiMaggio's still going to come up short in the 3,000 hit - 500 home run categories. And nothing else in his stats jumps out to me as being milestone reaching or all-time record worthy by simply adding three more years worth of numbers. He doesn't/didn't need anything else though, he already had the hitting streak AND he played for the Yankees. DiMaggio had all the publicity and hype he could ever need and/or want. And yet, he still went beyond all that with the icing on his cake................he was married to Marilyn Monroe!

I put that on somewhat of a par with Verlander. You guys had your other thread talking about how dismal Verlander's World Series record is, and with that opening game loss to Philly the other night he's now sporting an 0-6 WS pitching record, with the highest WS starting pitcher ERA of all time, right? Well, if I was Verlander, I probably couldn't care less, and upon hearing/reading all the negativity directed at me I'd likely just respond "Screw you!", because at the end of the day I get to go home to my wife, Kate Upton, and............................................... ............

I'll leave it to you all to finish that last sentence however you like. :D

He didn't get the loss though. But he definitely was not in good form. It's weird because his career playoff record overall isn't that bad, just the WS.

Wherever he ends up in wins, given trends no pitcher may ever get more, at least until the game reverts back to how it was.

Don't disagree, but then go look at their career WAR. Different sites seem to always have slightly different figures and exact ways they're calculating it, but if you look at them just for offensive WAR, Williams would likely just have topped Ruth if he hadn't missed those five years. But then add on Ruth's pitching WAR also and now he's back on top for total WAR over even Williams then. And even if looking just at offensive WAR, it would have taken Willams several more seasons than Ruth to just catch and equal him, still leaving Ruth in the top spot IMO, just Williams looking a lot closer maybe.

Replace Ruth's first 4-5 years as primarily a pitcher for the Red Sox, and back out the approximately 20.0 pitching WAR he generated during that time, and instead replace it with 4-5 years worth of his average offensive WAR, and you're likely looking at a career WAR for Ruth of 200.0 or better, even farther beyond what anyone else ever put up.

My one earlier comment about Williams possibly catching and besting Ruth is still true in regard to just offensive WAR, but that would primarily be due to Williams having played longer, not necessarily better, than Ruth.

And I still hate and don't fully understand a lot of these modern metrics and statistics, but because so many worship and quote them like they're gospel, one is forced to use or repeat them in conversations like this occasionally.

Didn't see he may not have been credited with the loss, wasn't watching the game, but knew he certainly didn't get the win. Still highest ever ERA though, right?

So more importantly, how'd you finish that last line? :rolleyes:

I will decline the invitation to make a sexist comment.:rolleyes: He'll go home, wait for the phone to ring congratulating him on the Cy Young award, and hang with his kids.

Feller
 

And it's "Short Attention Span Theater" again. Thanks PeterSpaeth and
BobC, you are the very image of predictability. Feel free to rip away and
further distance the thread from it's actual intent. Trent King

Why are you so OCDish about a thread having to stay precisely on topic? Most threads would die awfully damn soon if they couldn't move and breathe. I suggest you start some yourself and specify one answer per person, each PRECISELY on point, on penalty of death for noncompliance. What an orderly thing that would be.

Guess what? This is a thread about baseball. Sooner or later, it's natural someone is going to make an analogy to the player in the OP. Because being a baseball fan is all about comparisons. Wrap your head around that, man.

Yes, don't know the details of that particular incident/story, but find it highly doubtful Feller would ever deliberately and intentionally make racist comments. In fact, Feller was the main force after the war behind the 1946 barnstorming and exhibition game tour where a white, ML all-star team with the likes of himself, Musial, Rizzuto, and others went across the country right after the WS ended and played 35 games over 27 days in 17 different states across the country and British Columbia. Their opponent was a team of Negro League All-Stars headed by Satchell Paige, and the likes of Buck O'Neil, Quincy Trouppe, Hank Thompson, and others. And to make it all work, Feller did something else unprecedented and never done in baseball before. Feller charted two DC-3 planes to fly everyone to all the games for the whole barnstorming tour. He even had them paint "Bob Feller's All-Stars" on the outside of the planes. Apparently the tour was a huge success, everyone shared in the profits, and supposedly most everyone made more in that one month than they'd made over the entire baseball season that year. All the players apparently got along great, and Feller referred to and thought of the Negro League players as friends. Doesn't sound or come across as a racist type person to me.

Oh, and because the chartered planes and constant flying were not things ML teams were doing yet, at this time MLB baseball travel was still primarily by train, some team owners were scared and didn't want to risk their star players getting injured or killed in a plane crash. As a result, supposedly Hal Newhouser and Ted Williams were each paid $10,000 by their respective team owners to not go on the tour. Always thought that a bit ironic and funny in Williams' case as he served as a pilot in WWII and the Korean War.

This is another thing that could also be posted in the "It only ever happened once........" thread over in the Water Cooler - All Sports Talk forum.

Forgive me if the subject has already been hashed over, but what were Ruth's batting stats when he pitched for Boston?

One day he’ll realize his tantrums whenever someone says something even slightly off the exact OP are themselves as off topic as the comments he’s whining about :rolleyes:

But he's not having a tantrum, his blood pressure has remained exactly the same!! There Trent I said it for you. :)

We should all monitor our blood pressures as frequently as he does, early detection of issues is important :D

Net 54 hypertension is considered situational rather than "essential" and therefore not dangerous at least in moderate doses. Hans Seelye's eustress, in fact, good for you in moderation. Oh my I am off topic I need to send a note sniping at myself. Did Bob Feller have hypertension how do I get this back to Bob Feller? Ah yes, a card.

Mr. Spaeth, there is actually a very plausible answer and explanation to your question, given on the Wikipedia site for Bob Feller, and apparently coming directly from Feller himself. In the last paragraph of the "Return to Cleveland (1945 - 1948)" section on Feller it talks of him pitching in a game in Philly against the Athletics on June 13, 1947, and in the 4th inning after already accumulating 10 strikeouts, him falling off the mound made slippery by rain, and injuring his back as a result. The article quotes Feller as saying, "My fastball was never the same after that.". The fact that that Feller can pinpoint the exact time, date, and place it happened is pretty telling. His record going forward you pointed out speaks for itself, and adds another big "What if?" to his career. It also raises a further question as to would today's modern medical advances have been able to do something about his injury and restored him to his pre-injury condition and health.

And sincerely hope this is on point and topic enough for the usual forum trolls. I didn't know that in talking about how certain aspects of a player's career compared to and impacted or were interwoven into that of other players was considered so off topic, or how rude one should be lest anyone acknowledge and respond to a slightly off topic or tangential question which was asked. I actually thought there was a lot of good and informative info and conversation going on that would be enlightening and entertainting to a lot of others. I typically have those troll types on ignore, but then others go quoting them and their BS shows up anyway. And if there is anything posted in a thread that could ever be called more "off-topic", it is making a post and just complaining about others in the thread being off-topic. At least my post calling out such a complainer actually does also speak to Feller and his career. :D

Interesting. At least it happened well into his career and at that point he had enough experience and savvy to compensate at least somewhat for loss of that overpowering heater. Today, I would speculate it would have been a very self-limiting injury that some good rehab would have cleared up.

Feller was doing a phone interview around 2005 & passed a comment about Caribbean players not knowing the rules. The interviewer pressed him for examples but Feller wouldn't or couldn't elaborate. Things became contentious & Feller threatened to hang up whereupon the interviewer said something like "Go ahead you racist!".

First off John, did you know that when asked about facing all other pitchers, Ted Williams said Allie Reynolds makes him start thinking about facing him 24 hours before he does so, but that Bob Feller had him thinking about facing him a full three days before he actually did. Feller was that good and got into his head that much more than any other pitcher he ever faced apparently.

And now that I've fulfilled my obligation to discuss Bob Feller and his career in some manner in this post, I can now not be rude and respond to your question, brought up from earlier conversations in this thread surrounding some discourse others may feel is inappropriately off-topic, whatever their warped, myopic or mistaken reasoning.

For Ruth, he played his first six seasons in Boston, primarily as a pitcher. During that time his batting stats were as follows:

G 391
PA 1332
AB 1110
R 202
H 342
2B 82
3B 30
HR 49
RBI 224
SB 13
CS 0
BB 190
SO 184
BA .308
OBP .413
SLG .568

And his offensive WAR just from batting over these six seasons with Boston was 19.2, with the biggest contribution coming in his last year in Boston, 1919, when he played in a total of 130 games that year, only appearing in 17 of those games as a pitcher, and putting up a 9.1 WAR. Commensurately for pitching, for those same six seasons he put up a pitching WAR of 20.5, with 1916 being his best when he posted an 8.8 pitching WAR.

Yes, just think if he could have stayed healthy and played as long as Spahn. Yankees may have had a bit more competition in the '50's from Cleveland then.

Yeah 1919 was his Ohtani year. Oh no, I just brought up a MODERN player on this thread. Back to Feller, here is a card.

If he'd started out as a position player, they probably would have made him change into the small ball hitter that everyone else was at the time. So if the focus hadn't been on his pitching at first instead, he may never have gotten the chance to become "the Babe".

Technically, I think it is okay to mention a modern player, because the direct query in the OP is about Feller's rating, and thus necessitates the invocation of other names in order to establish Feller's empirical rank, as long as that rank aligns with his exact opinion, otherwise we will be called mentally disabled again. As long as the central question is Feller's rank and the modern player is used to justify a correct position on that issue, it should be within the tight constraints of not having that terrible foible of human conversation, of evolving.

Anyways here's a Feller I got for $5 a few years ago. It's one of the super prints in this issue but a great pose and career contemporary card for dirt cheap. This and the 1956 Topps are his best 'bang for the buck' cards in my eyes.

Disclosure: I have no clue what my blood pressure is today.

Was not aware of and never heard that before. If anything, not sure how that is necessarily considered racist either. I know that back in his day Feller wanted to play Winter ball in Cuba at one point I believe, and apparently got into it with then baseball commissioner Happy Chandler about a rule supposedly not allowing US ML ballplayers to play in Cuba, but Latin/Carribean ML ballplayers could. That is the only questionable Latin/Carribean player situation I've ever heard of him being involved with.

For the heck of it, did a little online searching and found some stuff on the issue after all. Seems he was doing a live radio interview over the phone at 86 years of age with someone on a small local radio station in Iowa I believe, possibly trying to make a name for themself and generate ratings. Guessing Feller came across as rude/obnoxious/opinionated because the a--hole interviewing him either wouldn't shut up and let him finish, or just pushed what Feller was possibly not saying in the nicest, sweetest, and most kiss-ass PC way possible was therefore proof he was racist. Seems Feller said Latin players first coming here didn't know or understand all the rules and that not speaking good English maybe didn't help in their understanding, or something along those lines. Seems to me Feller was more or less merely stating facts about differences between MLB rules and exactly how they play baseball here in the states, and then how that can differ with the way the game's played in other parts of the world, and that language issues and misunderstandings can further complicate those differences and learning. I can understand Feller being pissed if this guy then tried pushing him as a racist.

And another thing many may not know about Feller, in 1956 he became the inaugural President of the Major League Baseball Players Association, a position in which he represented all ML players of all ethnicities. I somehow doubt he would have been elected to such a position if he actually was a racist.

On Larry Doby's first day in the Major Leagues with the Indians, several teammates refused to shake Doby's hand. Bob Feller is believed to be one of those teammates.

However, in an interview with Larry Doby in 1979, Doby says that Feller changed for the better, even if it took him some time (starting at 1:30:19).
https://nunncenter.net/ohms-spokedb/...han068_ohm.xml

I think the accusations some have made in the press that Feller was racist are overblown.

For me, who witnessed so much discrimination, including separate facilities, etc., in my youth, that's the test. As the country changed, did someone go along with that change, or try to fight it, as so many are still trying to do today? From what I've heard, Bob Feller met that test.

Look how THAT turned out.

I'd say kamikaze's were the hardest thing he faced.

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

Out of interest, where do you rank Ryan?

higher than most on net54

Bill James if memory serves had Feller 12 (counting Negro Leagues) and Ryan 24th. I would think most would have them closer together.

I've got this 1935 Iowa State Amateur Baseball Tournament scorebook featuring 16 year old Bob Feller. This was the tournament at which Feller was "found" by superscout Cy Slapnicka. He was signed shortly thereafter. The scorebook was the official scorer's book kept by the Iowa Amateur Athletic Association's State Chairman Joe Campbell. Feller's team of farm boys ended up winning the tournament against many of the well sponsored city boys. Feller was probably 8 - 10 years younger than most of the participants.

In the tournament, Feller pitched 27 1/3 innings, had 49 strikeouts and gave up 14 hits, 10 walks, 4 runs (1 earned run). The only earned run was on a home run. In the last two days of the tournament, Feller pitched both complete games and likely threw over 300 pitches!

Attachment 540744

Very interesting, had not really been aware of these accusations, nor the Doby interview. Didn't listen to the entire thing, focused more on the racism parts and the conversation surrounding Feller though. Also did some searching regarding the alleged refusal of Feller to shake Doby's hand.

What is funny (and sad) is how a lot of the BS from back then is virtually no different than the half-truths, innuendos, and sometimes outright lies that different sides continue to hurl at each other to this day, and will continue to occur and do so as long as there are still humans on this planet.

As I kind of expected, I couldn't find any definitive or collaborative evidence to support that Feller actually did refuse to shake Doby's hand. I'm going to guess that came about when some heard about Feller's supposed racist comments, and so immediately assumed he must have been one of those that had snubbed Doby, and of course those same people then use Feller's name to pass on the message because he's the biggest name/star tied to the incident and will therefore bring the most notice and attention to what they just said. It is just like all the online, media and other platforms spewing crap back and forth today, before any of these current ones existed.

Interestingly in the interview, the question of Feller shaking hands is never asked nor addressed by Doby. Are there any known interviews or quotes where Doby definitively states that Feller did refuse to shake hands with him that day? Also in the interview it talks about something(s) Feller apparently said that are interpreted as racist, but Doby never actually states exactly what it is that Feller said that was so bad. He almost purposely does it, it seems, so no one can directly come back to ever refute him and what he was saying. I'm assuming it has to do with comments attributed to Feller making at one time that he didn't think any Negro League players were good enough to play in the white ML, and/or that he didn't think Jackie Robinson was all that good (too muscle bound, couldn't turn on an inside pitch) and that had he been white, he likely wouldn't have been called up to the majors. Was that being racist, or was that Feller simply stating his opinion on the baseball abilities and talents, in relation to a specific game played at a specific level that he was infinitely familiar with, of certain groups/people?

I'd previously posted that it was Feller entirely behind setting up barnstorming tours where white ML all-stars played against black Negro League all-stars, and took them around the country, to play before both black and white patrons. And along with making money for everyone, it also opened up and presented blacks playing against whites to huge segments of the white population that otherwise may not ever have been exposed to it before, making it more and more acceptable to larger segments of the population. Granted, this was certainly not the first time white MLB players had played against black players, but it was arguably the most orchestrated, hyped, and celebrated up to that point in time. If Feller was truly so racist, why would he have purposely gone to such trouble and effort to play with Negro League players? In fact, it could easily be argued that Feller was exactly the opposite of a racist, and his barnstorming tours actually helped to promote equality and acceptance of Negro League players to larger and larger segments of both the racially divided white AND black segments of the population, and make the coming integration of MLB easier and more accepted than it might have been otherwise.

And for the record, I believe Feller was known to have expressed he felt Doby was a much better player than Robinson. But in regard to comments Feller may have said about thinking blacks in general, or Robinson in particular, maybe not being good enough to play in the MLs, is it possible that people weren't really looking at this from Feller's point of view to see him treating the black players just like he would any other rookies coming up to a MLB team? Remember, any rookie coming in was likely replacing and taking food out of the mouth of someone else whom the remaining veteran players may have become attached to and friends with after playing together for years, and as a result weren't going to be too happy to see them replaced by someone they didn't know. Hazing and trials of rookies back then to see if they could prove themselves worthy, and earning a spot on a team before being fully accepted by their teammates, may have been more prevalent than many care to admit. In which case it is wholly possible that Feller was merely being the polar opposite of racist, and treating players like Doby just like he would any other rookies, white or black, riding them and questioning them and their talents before finally accepting them as teammates only after having proven themselves at the ML level. And for all Feller's comments about who he thought was or wasn't talented enough to play MLB, instead of being racist, maybe he really just had a lousy eye for talent after all. Don't remember anyone ever offering him a job as a scout, do any of you?

Feller was outspoken, opinionated, and honest, the kind of person to mean what he said, and say what he meant. But sincerely doubt he was ever a racist. Always thought Feller reminded me of Clint Eastwood's character in the movie Gran Torino.

Here's what Feller had to say when Doby died.

"Larry and I were very good friends," Hall of Fame pitcher Bob Feller, Doby's teammate in Cleveland from 1947-56, said Wednesday night.
"He was a great guy, a great center fielder and a great teammate. He helped us win the pennant in 1948 and the World Series. My thoughts go out to his family," he said.

I dug out my old Bill James Historical Abstract, printed in 1988. Yes, I know its not the most current.

Of the pitchers on his "100 Greatest Players of this Century", he has Feller #8 Career Value behind (in order): Grove, Spahn, W. Johnson, Cy Young, Matty, Seaver, G.C. Alexander, then Bob Feller.

Does not appear Bill James included what may have been for Fellers Military years missed.

Since 1988, I acknowledge pitchers such as Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro would have an impact on rankings.

I am thinking of the 2003 volume. He included Paige in that one. I think he had Gibson ahead of Feller, and I forget who else. Probably by that time Clemens.

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

Bob Feller was no racist, and that's the end of it. "Dr. Jones, it's time to ask yourself what you believe."

And if he wasn't, he was way ahead of the rest of the country.

And guess who was managing Cleveland when they signed him, in one of the odd twists of their careers?

I think it was George F. Will who made the point that while Mays might not have had to endure some of the outright racism Robinson did, he was still the target of a more subtle racism; for example, the press apparently was fond of referring to Mays' childlike enthusiasm for the game. Also, Life Magazine (or maybe Time) apparently created a shitstorm by putting Larraine Day on the cover with one arm around Leo (her husband) and the other around Willie.

One more about Willie and the 50s, there was a hit song by the Treniers about him, it's actually a good song but listening to the lyrics from today's POV is just painful.

Yes, but while anything is possible, some outcomes are far more probable than others, no? Don't you think the chances he would have performed at a similar level are much higher than that he would have sustained a career ending injury? I wouldn't go so far as to simply credit anyone with numbers for hypothetical seasons, but I think at some level one can consider the phenomenon in one's assessment.

Certainly I think it is more likely he would have performed well than not. Pitcher arm's dying is not some weird and unusual thing though; it happens all the time and to the majority of pitchers. Give him an extra thousand innings or so and the odds are not tiny. This, what I think is more likely than another scenario, though, is irrelevant. We do not know what would have happened because we are not omniscient. When we look at the numbers to try to determine who had the best MLB careers (what is almost always actually meant when we say "best"), we can only evaluate actual reality, the things that we know have actually happened or the things that it would be more reasonable to think happened than to think that they did not happen. Any argument placing Feller in the top 10 relies on fanfiction, giving credit for years which did not happen, and assuming the best possible outcome of these fictional events in his favor. If the question is "who are your top 10 MLB pitchers who bad luck and for whom events probably most hurt the career value of?", Feller may be a good candidate.

I like Feller. But I see no reasonable way to give credit for years that did not happen. If I make up fantasy years for one player, I can do it for any of them. By the same logic I can conclude the immensely talented Bobby Bonds is a top 10. If things had just gone differently for X, if X had just done things a little different, if luck had been with X, X could have been the best. If only. It's true for all of us, really. If I'd just done X at Y time, I'd be the big winner at Z. If X had never happened to me and my situation would be different, I'd be #1. But reality doesn't work that way.

Huge Feller fan here, ever since meeting him at age 11 outside of the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. My dad pointed him out and sent me with a ball and pen in his direction.
I didn't realize until after I looked at the signature who he was, and it remains a great childhood memory.

I have him as #11 on my list of greatest pitchers, but personally found it much harder to make that list than the outfield players.

Also, pulled these mocked-up stats from an old Net54 thread that represented the best effort to fill in the blanks for military service in WWII.

My Feller focus is going strong for the last 10 years or so. There are a couple of rare cards that are going to be the end of me trying to complete the Master Set, I'm afraid.
And as Peter said, every thread needs a card -- or more.
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Nice cards, indeed !

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

+1 on that. Well said.

For 10 points, who did Ted fly half his missions with in Korea?