Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2104474)

The red HINDU backs are my 3rd favorite T206 brands. American Lithographic printed red HINDU backs on 47 subjects in the T206 set.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by wonkaticket (Post 801306)

Thanks Ted, my one and only...but as Leon often says if you're only going to have one why not this one.

But what I really want is a Cobb Red Port with Red Hindu back.. :)

All joking aside love to find out if a Danny Murphy batting is out there...

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 801361)

JOHN

I guarantee that eventually this card will be found. It is currently lying low due to the capricious whims
of the The Monster :)

TED Z

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2104565)

Hey guys,

American Lithographic printed 35 subjects in the 350/460 Series simultaneously with the red HINDU
and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.

On a separate sheet American Litho printed 12 subjects from the 460-only Series with the red HINDU
and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x42.jpg


350/460 Series Checklist.…...35 subjects

Ames (hands over head) ..……………..*
Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow}
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (portrait-red)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)

Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
Mathewson (dark cap) ....……………….*
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Reulbach (no glove) ......………………..*
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

Note..... * These subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back.

In recent years, Dougherty, Joss, and Murphy have been discovered with Red HINDU backs; therefore,
I fully expect Ames, Matty, and Reulbach will eventually be confirmed.

If anyone on this forum is willing to make a bet on this ? I will give them 2 to 1 odds that these 3 guys
will be discovered.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2104941)

Hey Guys,

Circa 2010 on Net54, I presented my theory regarding the "split-personality" of the T206 350/460 Series cards in their latter print runs (Winter 1910 to
Spring 1911). Group A comprising of 35 subjects. Group B comprising of 28 subjects. And, this theory has withstood the test of time.

In 2010......Ames, Dougherty, Mathewson, Murphy and Reulbach had NOT yet been confirmed with the red HINDU back. Back then, I predicted that these
5 guys would eventually be discovered with red HINDU backs. Subsequently, Dougherty and Murphy were discovered. The other 3 remain to be seen.

Here is a record of one of my predictions....that of Danny Murphy (batting) will be discovered with a red HINDU back......

Dated 4-19-2020






Look guys.....I try to inform, educate, or simply encourage thought regarding the complexities of the T206 set. I really appreciate all your
positive responses, phone calls, emails, etc. since 2005. But, there are one (or 2) on this forum that get their kicks playing the "negative"
game. And, I have tried (more or less) to play the tolerance game in dealing with their comments.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2104958)

It's funny how many times you use the negative game comment Ted. It's not a negative game I just find it a little offensive when you state your opinion
as fact. I'm not saying the three subjects you pointed out weren't printed with a Red Hindu but anyone who follows the t206 set closely knows there
are many inconsistences in the set and you can't assume anything.

Your Murphy prediction date should be 4-19-2010.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2104992)

Pat

My research indicates that the printing of the various T206 series from the Summer of 1910 to the Spring of 1911 have very few "inconsistences".
In fact, there are definite logical patterns in the printing process during that period. These patterns are addressed in.... T206 Reference

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, that I typed the date "2020", instead of "2010" in my prior post. It has been corrected.

TED Z
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 801481)

Hey Jeff L......et al

By my count, the blue Chase even beats out the Red Cobb with respect to the number of different backs.
The blue Chase has been confirmed with 22 different T206 backs.....it includes BROAD LEAF 350, LENOX,
and Red HINDU.
I expect that it will be found with a BROAD LEAF 460 back and a DRUM back.

Chase was NOT printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, nor UZIT.


The Red Cobb has been confirmed with 22 different T206 backs......it includes BROAD LEAF 460, DRUM,
and LENOX.
I do not expect it to be found with anymore T206 backs.

Cobb was NOT printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, nor Red HINDU, nor UZIT.


TED Z

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 2105056)

Speaking of T206 inconsistencies from 1909-11, there are many folks out there that believe the T213-1 Coupon's should be part of the T206 collection of various Tobacco backs. 1910, Tobacco back, exact same design as the rest of the T206 tobacco backs, with only 1 slight variation (sorta like an American Beauty which is cut narrower in width, only the Coupon is cut narrower in depth) Cough, cough.... I digress - Love these Uber rare rascals!

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 2105056)

Speaking of T206 inconsistencies from 1909-11, there are many folks out there that believe the T213-1 Coupon's should be part of the T206 collection of various Tobacco backs. 1910, Tobacco back, exact same design as the rest of the T206 tobacco backs, with only 1 slight variation (sorta like an American Beauty which is cut narrower in width, only the Coupon is cut narrower in depth) Cough, cough.... I digress - Love these Uber rare rascals!

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105095)

Hi Jeremy

You and I (and some T206 collectors on this forum) agree that the 1910 COUPON cards should be included in the family of the T206 tobacco brands.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).]

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...poncobb50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edCobb75xb.jpg



Further proof of this is evident on my Doolan card which has cardboard residue on it from being pasted on a cigarette carton.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...UPONDoolan.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PONDoolanB.jpg




Whatever, here is my nicest 1910 COUPON card. If I am lucky, the stupid TPG's will probably grade it only a "2" (or perhaps a "1.5").

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Willett50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Willett38b.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 2103588)

Thanks Ted! I love those Coupon Type 1's as well! Coincidentally, 80% of the Southern League Type 1 Coupons are For Sale in current REA Auction. (16 of 20). That would be a Big step toward your completion of the Coupon Type 1's! Some of the Highest Graded examples known as well!! ;)

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105095)

Hi Jeremy

You and I (and some T206 collectors on this forum) agree that the 1910 COUPON cards should be included in the family of the T206 tobacco brands.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The INITIAL OFFERING of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes. Newspaper clippings (dated 1909 - 1910) introducing this new ATC brand.

Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...poncobb50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edCobb75xb.jpg




Further proof of this is evident on my Doolan card which has cardboard residue on it from being pasted on a cigarette carton.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...UPONDoolan.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PONDoolanB.jpg

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105577)

Pat

If you do NOT see the stylistic similarity of the design of these 5 backs indicating that they were printed during the Summer 1910 timeline,
then you have no appreciation for the operation at American Lithographic's art department. These designs were simultaneously printed in
the Spring/Summer of 1910. The same was true with another stylistic back design during the 350-only Series (CAROLINA BRIGHTS).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg



Furthermore,
This information is derived from an ATC journal regarding the May 1911 DIVESTURE ACT, which broke up American Tobacco Company's
monopoly.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
COUPON
King Bee
Fatima

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:

Pall Mall
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca


Note that the COUPON brand is assigned to L & M.....proving to us that it was in the marketplace during 1910.
Newspaper clippings (circa 1909) exist which inform us this new ATC brand was being introduced.


THAT'S ALL FOLKS, CASE IS CLOSED !


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105589)

How does any of this prove the t213-1's were printed in1910?

In a previous thread about them you and Jeremy both claimed the 1910 date came from a newspaper ad and that Jeremy had the ad.
After days of saying he was going to dig out the ad he admitted he had mistaken it for an Old Mill or Hindu ad.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105589)

I have two questions for you. Have you looked at the ALC journal ?
If the t213-1's were printed with the t206's why aren't they in the journal?

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105602)

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A NEWSPAPER ADV. !

I referred to Newspaper clippings (circa 1909-1910) announcing that ATC was introducing a new Tobacco brand, labelled COUPON.

It's bad enough that you constantly try to "trash" anything I present on Net54, but now you are "busting" Jeremy. I do feel sorry for you !




What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105602)

I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A NEWSPAPER ADV. !

I referred to Newspaper clippings (circa 1909-1910) announcing that ATC was introducing a new Tobacco brand, labelled COUPON.

It's bad enough that you constantly try to "trash" anything I present on Net54, but now you are "busting" Jeremy. I do feel sorry for you !




What ALC journal are you referring to ? ?

And, your 2nd ? here doesn't make any sense.

Here is my simulated 48-card sheet comprising of the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. My educated guess is: this represents a 350-only series
sheet which American Lithographic (ALC) "borrowed " to print the 1910 COUPON cards approx. in the same timeframe (Spring/Summer 1910) that ALC printed
these T206's with PIEDMONT, SWEET CAP, SOVEREIGN, etc. backs

To my Engineering thinking mind that makes logical sense to me.


1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League 48 subjects

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841319)

Pat
1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread...…..



Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton"

This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton,
they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3.

This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it.


The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner…………

LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:

Coupon
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business:

Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market:

Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.

R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.



2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from."

Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841507)

That's the 1908 Times Picayune article which I referred to regarding the "COUPON" Cigarettes brand. I knew you would find it.

Come on Pat, this is silly...."but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.".

T206's were not issued until approx. a year later (circa Spring/Summer 1909).

Anyway, thanks for finding this Newspaper article.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1841577)

Maybe, Like many other things, it came from conjecture not fact. When I started quoting Burdick all I got in response was some old hobbyists said "this and that." I say if we are going to have a good debate we should base it on facts not what someone might have said a long time ago.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1842522)

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.

Thanks again,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 1843368)

Hey Guys - Sorry, been away at Volleyball Tourneys the past serveral days... I still need to read and catch up on this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned... The Federal Leaguers seem to be key to the time difference in the Type 1 and Type 2's, correct !? Burdick seem to get the Type 2 dating correct as that set is loaded with Federal leaguer's (Federal League 1913-15) and a perfect example is Al Bridwell 1914 Type 2 card - St. Louis Terriers Fed league team. Bridwell is also featured in the Type 2 set with a Nashville card having spent time bouncing around SL a bit. There are other examples in the Type 2 set of Minor League/Federal Leaguer's who are not featured in the Type 1 set as well. To me it seems fairly obvious the 4 Nashville players featured in ATC/American Litho 1909-11 are Bay, Bernhard, Perdue, and Ellam. Those 4 Nashville players are absent in the Type 2 and 3 sets as well as the obvious blue lettering which distinguishes the 2&3 sets from the Type 1. Two Clear examples that Type 1 were most likely not printed in and around the time of the Type 2 and 3 sets.

Pat - Thanks for all the advertisement examples of OM & Hindu... I think that may be what I have buried in my collection. I will dig it up at some point and verify... Too big to scan, and I haven't looked at it in years... Regardless of an advertisement, sure that is clear proof, but Coupon Type 1 cards are so rare, I doubt they had a Advertising campaign like the other ATC brands. While it would be nice to have a clearly dated advertisement as proof, I think its clear by the Federal league example aforementioned and the 4 Nashville players mirroring the T206 4 Nashville players that its more likely the Coupons were produced around 1909-11 than around 1913-19 like the Type 2 and 3's with blue lettering and glossy/thicker cardboard. It's only a matter of time as type 1's lean way more towards the 1910 date, than they do any other date imho.

Thanks, J

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball (Post 2105786)

Ted - Per your comments below... I absolutely agree these cards were randomly attached to Coupon Cartons. (See my Examples below) : The Greminger has Carton layer/residue on the reverse still stuck to it and the Coupon Carton has a patchy area in upper right hand corner and is missing a thin layer of carton where something was attached to it and was removed. Plenty of Type 1 Coupon examples with the missing paper in the same spot on the upper middle back. Now look at the carton below... Unfortunately, I have only seen 2 Cartons in my life as they are fragile and have not survived and I own one. I wish I could find the other one to review for paper loss to the carton and see if it is in the same spot. Doesn't have to be as you could attach the card anywhere I suppose, but it makes sense that the upper right of the carton would have the card attached and consistent with pattern of the paper loss on card and carton.

The ones who disagree with us are unaware that these cards were NOT meant to be "stiffiners" in cigarette packs. The initial offering of the COUPON
cigarettes was in rectangular cartons containing 200 (or more) loose cigarettes.....circa 1909 - 1910).
Many of the cards were inserted in these cartons, while others were pasted on the outside of the carton. Hence, the paper loss on the backs of some
of these cards (e.g. my Cobb).

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105890)

If the paper loss on your carton is from having a type 1 glued to it that
would mean they were printed after the t206's according to Ted. He said
your carton is 1913 or later because it has Liggett & Myers on it.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2105923)

The L & M label on these cartons proves nothing in determining when the 1910 COUPON cards were printed. All this indicates is that some 1910 COUPON cards were affixed
to these cartons post ATC Divesture.
The most significant key to determining when the 1910 cards were printed (besides the 48 subjects from the 350-only Series) is in the labelling on the backs of these cards,
namely "COUPON"

The QUOTES surrounding the Brand name signify that ATC has not yet received the Registered TRADEMARK of this new brand (circa 1909/1910) at time of their printing.

Other such examples of QUOTED new Brands are these...........


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...cobbtycobb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...cobbtycobb.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...atecigpack.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...atecigpack.jpg . https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...t215pirate.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1841507)

That's the 1908 Times Picayune article which I referred to regarding the "COUPON" Cigarettes brand. I knew you would find it.

Come on Pat, this is silly...."but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures.".

T206's were not issued until approx. a year later (circa Spring/Summer 1909).

Anyway, thanks for finding this Newspaper article.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105989)

Jeremy, It doesn't matter to me if people want to group them with t206's
or if they were attached to the outside of cartons what I am interested in
is the date they were printed.

Have you or Ted looked at the ATC journal?

It covers all the cigarette brand in the t206 set and a total of 35 different brands.

Here are some of the t206 pages from that journal

Attachment 459686

Attachment 459687

The narrower American Beauty's you brought up were in it

Attachment 459688


But the Coupon Cigarettes weren't.

Originally Posted by Pat R (Post 2105955)

As you like to say we have discussed this already Ted.

First of we know the Coupon Cigarettes existed as early as 1908



and the quotes seemed to be used on tobacco products frequently back then

Here's a Carolina Brights coupon I have that they used the quotes on

Attachment 459661 Yes, because in 1908 CAROLINA BRIGHTS was a new ATC brand whose TRADEMARK had NOT yet been Registered !

so your case closed evidence that they were printed in 1910 is

A similar back design
48 subjects from the 350 only series
Coupon in quotes
Paper missing on some backs where they were glued to cartons

These things according to you are case closed evidence they were printed in 1910


but the these facts

they're printed on a different stock
Because these cards were not intended to be inserted in Packs as "stiffiners". There are NO packs labelled "COUPON" cigarettes.


the t213 type 1 subjects don't match up with any other t206 back (except Piedmont) I do not understand what you are stating here, this does NOT make any sense !

the ledger pages from an atc journal covering 35 tobacco brands from 1909-1912 doesn't have Coupon cigarettes in it.
Keep researching, you'll find one that does include the COUPON brand !

you claim that they were glued to cartons and that's what the paper loss on on the back of some of them is from but the carton with paper loss on it that Jeremy has you yourself said is no earlier than 1913. Totally irrelevant in determining printing date !

so all of these facts are just meh... a coincidence?

it really seems to me that you're grasping at straws to prove they were printed in 1910.

Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 2106007)

I'm not grasping at any straws.

You are so OBSESSED with proving me wrong regarding the 1910 date.....that you are continually making a "fool" of your self.

Perhaps Mark Twain said it best.... "Do not argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

This discussion is ENDED ! ! (as far as I'm concerned).

Thanks for "hi-jacking" what started out as an interesting thread.


Hey folks, let's continue posting and talking about our favorite Tobacco cards.


TED Z
.