Suppose it was undisputed that Clemens didn't start until after he won his 300th game, or Bonds until after his 600th home run. Careers still altered? You see where the logic of this is going I assume

Guinness is just a wonderful beer. It gets partial, yet significant, credit for my username. Also a big fan of Alec Guinness...

Schilling may have apologized for some of his comments, but there has been at least one recent one I would include as racist. But yes, apologies begin the healing process and should be factored in.
His ALS work should totally be factored in, too. In fact, I find it surprising that I never see it mentioned that he won the Roberto Clemente Award in 2001. He's done positive things, for sure. His candidacy is so complicated on so many levels, way beyond the field.
Limited to his performance on the field. I think Schilling is a beyond-a-doubt Hall of Famer, a clearly worthy candidate who should have/would have been in years ago.

Now... let's continue this conversation over a Guinness...

It’s a slippery slope trying to determine who started taking PEDs to stay on top vs get on top.

For sure, but I think at least in theory there is room for an argument that a guy who clearly had a HOF career pre stuff is deserving.

The fact that Gil Hodges isn't in is a travesty

1000% agree. I simply don't understand. Total travesty...

Is anyone surprised by any of this? This day and age where people are completely cancelling out founders, leaders and people who accomplished great things for our country and people? People who by any standards were flawed and not perfect? People who lived during a time when social culture was different. The game is no different. People and players aren’t less perfect and never will be. The lines will just be drawn differently to allow some other imperfect people to reach their goals. This country used to be about equal opportunity based on your efforts. It’s becoming more about equal outcomes with less effort and a whole bunch of asterisks added at the end. In other words if you have it I should have it. If I can’t have it then either should you no matter how hard you worked for it at your job or on the field. I’m referring more to schilling here. All around not a perfect person but either we’re a lot of greats. His efforts on the field deserve recognition though.

The Hall is a Museum that honors baseball History. We try to make history as objective as possible. To not enshrine the players, that have accomplished some of the greatest feats in the game's history, aided or not by the use of PED's does not paint the whole picture.

The "Character and Integrity" Clause seems to only apply to certain players but not others. Put Bonds and Clemens in, Throw an asterisk on their plaque or put it in a wing for PED users, but they belong in the Hall of Fame, in my opinion.

Well said. Agree 100 percent. I Probably shouldn’t be posting while fighting COVID. This stuff is a beast.

I was watching the MLB Network announcement *TY Facebook as my cable system no longer carries MLB* and Gil Hodges is as of today, the ONLY person no longer on the ballot who has garnered 50 percent or more of the writers votes and not be inducted.

I think if he had lived a normal life span and managed another decade or so, he'd have been in around 1980.

Rich

Have thought the same thing for many years - WTF - How is he not in?

What am I missing?

The analogy still holds I think all the way to the fringes. I am sure you could list examples where it is arguable whether or not a card should be considered altered.

But the reality for Bonds and Clemens is the alteration was blatant and significant. PED use distorted their skills over several years and as a result most of the major awards they received are undeserved and their career numbers are fake.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Perfect
 

Well said.

There's no way I would every be able to vote for someone who knowingly cheated by taking a banned substance to better their game. They knew it was against the rules, then denied using, only to paint themselves into a corner. The sad part is they didn't need to do it - they were already amazing players. Couldn't control their egos.

Looking at his health and numbers I speculate that Clemens started juicing on his arrival in Toronto. I don't feel he was a HOF'er based on just his numbers in Boston. I realize that it's conjecture, but it's my fake vote.

Bonds was on a HOF track all along and was jealous of juicers so he became one. I just think of the numbers Griffey would've put up if he had done the same. In all likelihood his down times would've been shorter (McGwire basically juiced to stay on the field, yes it increased his power but he hit 49 Home runs as a clean rookie, he was a beast who just couldn't stay healthy until he juiced.) and his production would've been ridiculous as he was a better hitter than clean Bonds.

Bonds should be in, but I don't care when or if it happens.

I never understood why some drugs are OK and others are not OK to enhance performance. More than 10% of the players use medication for Attention Deficit Disorder, this greatly helps their attention and concentration at the plate. How about eye surgury etc. which has increased better vision to 20/10 etc. These are Ok because they are legal. Tommy John surgery is becoming routine to increase speed etc. It's all a bunch of crap. Put the best players in the Hall ( Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Arod ). I have no problems with these 4 guys. Tons of players took steroids but they were not as good as these guys.

I disagree. The punishment fits the crime in each case. These guys cheated because they couldn't accomplish what they did otherwise. So, in exchange they got to hit their milestones but the HOF is closed to them. They should have known as much when they did what they did and they did it anyway. Therefore, you can only assume it was more important to Bonds that he break the record than it was for him to get into the HOF. We should not feel as though he has been cheated in anyway because he's gotten exactly what he bargained for.

No new HOFers = another big fail for the Hall of Fame. I despise this country club mentality that keeps so many great players outside Cooperstown. There are a couple dozen guys that should have been in years ago. Once MLB put Selig in, the HOF shredded whatever credibility it had. Which shouldn't be too much of a surprise, since the entire concept of the Hall of Fame is based on the lie that Abner Doubleday invented baseball in Cooperstown. It was nothing but a real estate scheme, combined with an attempt to deny the debt baseball owned to older sports like cricket and rounders. It's as if baseball magically sprouted up in a cow pasture in upstate New York.

I agree Selig needs to get the boot. He was a disgrace to the game.

Gil Hodges and Curt Schilling should be in and no doubters IMO

I also agree with the poster who said Bud Selig should not be in.

There is a display on steroids at the HOF. Bonds, Clemens and other steroids users are part of that. There is no need to honor them with a plaque.

Who hasn't had the character clause appropriately applied to them? Popular answer is usually Ty Cobb but in the interest of transparency let's get it out there that Stump's book was a work of fiction and nothing common knowledge about Cobb is true.

I'll repeat my plea for the three Cubans to join Tony Perez.

Minoso, Tiant and Oliva.

.

Rose bet on baseball and should not be grouped in with the others.

If Rose ever gets in it should be after he's dead. So many others have waited and waited - only to end up like Santo- he deserves at least that punishment.

Now you see former players advertising to Bet and gamble. Times sure have changed. How many people even watch anymore without playing daily fantasy ? Or now you can bet on every play and at bat during the game. I think Rose bet on his team to Win. Doesn't seem so bad based on the current state of affairs. I guess it's ok to use an emory board or rosin bag or grease the ball to get a better grip and throw the ball faster, or throw a spit ball in the past and cheat etc. etc.

It sort of depends which one they're taking, and if they do or don't actually have it.

I do, and my current stuff is...... exactly what the ballplayers were taking in the 70's. In fact, I remarked to my doctor that the initial dose, made me feel like a major league ballplayer. I had to explain that the pills were green, just like the "greenies" the 70's guys took... she thought that was pretty funny.

If you're "normal" all it does is make you wired. If you have an appropriate amount and need it? It gives you enough focus to pay attention to a pitchers/batters current tendencies in team meetings.

That's about all. Anything different I'd chalk up to a placebo effect.


------------------------------
There's a weird hyperfocus thing that happens, all I can say is that it's probably like when a player says they're "in the zone". At least it is for me. Everything seems to happen like slow motion, perfectly and easily, and it's almost like knowing the result in advance. But it comes unbidden, and lasts anywhere from a few seconds to maybe a minute and a half? And goes just as quick.
Last time for me was pre medication, playing basketball, at which I'm normally just bad. But then there was a stretch of three no look no hesitation jump/hook shots that were as perfect as anything. Immediately followed by a shot so bad it hit nothing at all. As were my next two shots and most of the passes after I gave up shooting....

Started meds soon after, and it hasn't happened in about 15 years.

Can someone please explain how and why Bud Selig got inducted into the hall of fame?! Does every commissioner eventually get inducted?

It’s very clearly explained to every player about not betting on baseball and what the penalty is. Whether Rose bet on his team to win or not, he knew exactly that he shouldn’t be doing it and he is paying the price.

When one of my cousins was at boarding school, the school had a big scandal where kids with prescriptions were selling Adderall to other students right before the SATs and AP Exams. He wasn't involved, but I've always wondered how much of a boost it gave the kids who did use it, if it actually worked or if it was just hypercompetitive kids psyching themselves.

I've seen the display, It's nice. But why do we draw lines in the Sand with Clemens and Bonds when we didn't for Ivan Rodriguez? There are confirmed PED users in the Hall already. Why do they get to stay in, when they cheated the game, just like Bonds and Clemens did?

I just hate the "Holier than thou" attitude the Writers take. Clemens and Bonds statistically are two of the greatest players to step on a Baseball field. That will never change, the numbers are set in stone. You stick an asterisk on the Plaque and it ensures that while they made the Hall, that they cheated and that will be apart of their legacy until the end of time.

This is just my opinion, we can agree to disagree though.

I'm disappointed by the lack of inductions, but for more personal (and somewhat sentimental) card-related reasons. There's still a small brick and mortar card shop in my town, very near my favorite watering hole. Every January, I would go down to the shop, pick up the latest Hall inductees (usually for a buck or two), and march over to the bar to show them off to the 3 or 4 friends who are baseball fans (and drink pretty much daily)! This would invariably lead to discussions like we're having here, and more importantly, predictions about the upcoming season, Spring training, player transactions, etc. Well... none of that this year. The pub has closed (at least for now), no one's really out and about anyway, the start of the season may still be in flux, and now no HOFers to add to my collection. Sorry for the sappiness, but this has become a ritual that I really enjoy. Plus, I will be moving to another state soon, so this may have been the last brick and mortar purchase ever? We'll see, I guess. And for what it's worth, I would have voted for Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, and Rolen.

While I agree with nobody being voted into the Hall this year (by the writers), I do think those three fellows are "Hall Worthy" via the Veterans Committee. Especially Minoso.

Of all the names being thrown around in this thread, I most root for Hodges and Minoso to get in some day. Buck O'Neil is another (who's not yet been mentioned here, unless I missed it). I like to look at the Players' entire body of work, instead of just stats. Statistics do not tell the whole story.

If Curt is on the ballot next year, he gets my vote.

I'd agree with that as well. Would love for Dick Allen to get some consideration, and Gil Hodges as well. I think Hodges can get in through the Golden Era Committee

As a Phillies fan, I was hoping to see Dick Allen go in as well. I still hope it happens when the Veteran's Committee (or whatever it's called these days) meets at the end of the year, but now that he has died, it won't be the same even if he does get in. It will be a shame that he didn't live to enjoy the honor.

I agree. From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Koufax

To get himself [Koufax] through the games he pitched in, Koufax resorted to Empirin with codeine for the pain, which he took every night and sometimes during the fifth inning. He also took Butazolidin for inflammation, applied capsaicin-based Capsolin ointment (called "atomic balm" by baseball players) before each game, and soaked his arm in a tub of ice afterwards.

So who had their performance enhanced by drugs more, Clemens or Koufax? Clemens was a well above average pitcher without drugs, while Koufax couldn't pitch at all without them.

I'm not running down Koufax at all, just saying, if you want to rank players in terms of the difference drugs played in their performance, Koufax is #1, benefiting far more than any other player, going from not being able to pitch, to having that great 1966 season.

Are there “confirmed” PED users in the hall, or “presumed”? I don’t recall Rodriquez failing a test. Unless we’re taking anything Jose Canseco said as “proof”.

I hate that the HOF discussion has come down to discussions of "back ache" and assumptions of guilt or innocence.

Can steroid use cause back-ache? Sure...but you know what else can? Squatting in the summer hear for the better part of 3 hours on a dusty field while wearing polyester. :)

Based on just the Boston years, Clemens probably just misses on longevity. At the time, he was 33 and coming off two so-so seasons. If instead of winning 4 Cy Young awards over the next 11 years, what if he'd had a "normal" decline phase...3-4 seasons at or just below the level of his prior two seasons (20-18, 3.83 ERA).

He was 192-111 with a 3.06 ERA in Boston. Add in two seasons like that, and he's 212-129 with an ERA around 3.20. Curt Schilling was 216-146 with an 3.46 ERA.

So, normal decline, I think Clemens is in...without, it's a "dominance without longevity" case for sure.

Rodriguez is "presumed" Frank Thomas made some comments about him a while back, but as for confirmed players that have taken PED's that are in the Hall:

Babe Ruth had Goat Testosterone Injected
Mantle, Aaron and Schmidt: All used Amphetamines at least once.
Koufax abused Pain Pills to pitch
Goose Gossage used Amphetamines as well.

Doesn't matter how little or how often they did it, they used at least once.

Those are all a bit different than taking steroids/HGH after it's been explicitly banned and is being tested for...both from a legal and "baseball rules" standpoint (written and/or enforced).

But on the other hand...there ya go. Instruct the voters to no longer consider PED use when filling out their ballots, and we're back to the normal arguments!

Also...goat testosterone?! Dear God...that stuff is problematic enough in GOATS, never mind baseball players! :eek:

The HOF.....
 

Gil Hodges and Allie Reynolds deserve to be in the HOF. I don't understand why Hodges isn't. He was a great team player (defensively and at bat). Other than Lou Gehrig....name
a (PED-free) BB player who had 7 consecutive 100+ RBI seasons (1949 - 1955) like Gil Hodges ?

Regarding Curt Schilling.....he has said some "politically incorrect" comments....SO WHAT ! His performance on the BB field, and his positive deeds (ALS charity work, etc.) off the
BB field are what really matter.

But, who am I to judge. I will leave you with a quote to consider from a man with a lot of wisdom.....

" Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go,
and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens
and creates a country where everyone lives in fear. " - - - - President Harry S. Truman


TED Z
.

Concerning your first point I suppose your right, Iw as speaking more towards the "which players took substances" group when they played. That's just the tip of the iceberg when it came to Amphetamine abuse in baseball, people have speculated roughly half the league was on them at one point. Bowls of them were found in the Clubhouse, the notion that players, taking substances/drugs, is a recent problem is flawed.

Pud Galvin was taking Monkey Testosterone way back. Mantle was receiving injections with a concoction of "amphetamines laced with vitamins, human placenta, and eel cells" in 1961. Mantle actually ended up missing time because of it, the injection went bad and caused an abscess.



Ted 100% agree with you. I think Schilling is very outspoken but there's nothing wrong with that. This is a free country, he can express whatever opinion he believes. He deserves to be in the Hall.

So, it's not that the player became less "pure" or "sportsmanlike", it's that the drugs got better?

Steroids/HGH > Greenies > Goat and Monkey juice and eels

Are we really comparing amphetamines to steroids/HGH?

As far as Schilling, he has the right to say whatever he wants, like advocating the killing of journalists... and journalists, likewise, have the right to not vote for him.

Again, how and why is Selig in?

Lost all respect for Selig when he didn’t step in and protect Aaron’s record by stopping Bonds. He damn well knew what bonds was doing.

Do they impact a players performance in a positive way? If the answer is yes, then they are a PED, If PED users are considered cheaters than I don't understand why we absolve the guys who used one type of drug and condemn the other set of guys that used a different type of drug

And I wouldn't normally have any issue with this, but the same writers that are keeping Bonds and Clemens out are the ones that voted for them for MVP and Cy Young. Plus Selig fully knew what was going on in the sport, profited from it, yet condemns the players after the fact.

Excuse me if I didn't read all the previous posts to see if anyone already said this (I'm old and it's late here) ...

I think almost all of us believe the current system is bad.

______________________________________________

Why not split the vote between all former players and the baseball writers?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Or...even...split three ways and include the fans.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????

Of course, the candidates would still have to qualify as they do now...10 years of service and a post-career wait time...so that their last years don't weigh too much on everyone's mind (which, I believe, is why the wait period is there now.)

I realize this is kind of revolutionary, but it's time for a change.



.

Well said. Let's start delving into the lives of the people who vote on the Hall and see what social impropriety they may have committed in their past and judge them accordingly. For that matter let's judge the judgers on their life history and punish them if we think they have done bad.

+1

No, the only system that is bad is the Veterans Commitees. The BBWAA has done a pretty good job in electing worthy players. It is the Veterans Committees with players voting that has elected guys like Harold Baines, Bud Selig, Rube Marquard, Tommy McCarthy, Rick Ferrell, George Kelly, etc. Why would they want to give them more voting power?