I have always assumed that it is the buyer’s responsibility to get the payment to the seller and the seller’s responsibility to get the product to the buyer, unless other provisions are agreed upon.

Might make for a good poll.

Rob-What you assume makes no difference because the other party may be assuming something else. Why not just discuss it at the time the deal is being negotiated?

In all of my transactions, selling and buying, over the past 40 odd years, I have never had such a discussion. I have always operated as the previous poster says, that the seller and buyer need to each complete their end of the deal (get the product/payment safely to the other person.)

If paid by PayPal Goods, its the sellers responsibility until the package is delivered. If paid by PayPal Friends, the buyer just learned a valuable lesson. When you pay by Friends, you give up all of PayPal's buyer protection. I never use PayPal Friends, I add the extra fee. This situation is exactly why, long time trusted seller who it appears is not going to refund on a lost package. Always protect yourself.

Personally, PayPal rules shouldn't matter, the seller should do the right thing and refund.

Non-delivery/severe delay on a BST transaction
 

A long, drawn-out legal discussion aside, at least in the eBay and PayPal world, the heavy assumption is that it’s the seller’s responsibility to DELIVER the item to the buyer if the buyer has properly paid. OP - did you pay with PayPal G&S? If so, simply go dispute the transaction. If tracking shows you never got the item, they’ll refund you. Unlike my much more difficult case with eBay where the USPS marked an item delivered when it was really lost / stolen. To be honest this is why I’m hesitant to buy super pricey things not on eBay. If it gets lost that way, you have both eBay and PayPal standing behind you. I’ve had 2 items, maybe $100-150 each - lost by the USPS this year. Not high percentage-wise, but it does happen. One I got reimbursed, the other I didn’t. And no matter the value, it’s just an awful feeling.

Hope this can be resolved in a positive way, even with a lot of time lost.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

"-the seller chose to not use insurance but rather used certified mail - I've seen a tracking number that proves something was sent somewhere and is sitting somewhere."

Is your zip code the same as the one on the Certified?

If not, would it be sitting in the Post Office of the zip code that was on the Certified?

The rules we play by are very clear to me...if you buy a card, you get the card...or a refund. Any weaseling out of your obligation to deliver one of these two things is disgusting. As as seller I protect myself with insurance and proof of delivery...it is not the buyers job to cover my responsibilities.

Mac

I'm confused as to the whole address thing as well. Did the buyer give the seller the address to ship the card to, or did the seller just grab the address on his own??

Me too. It is very easy. Barring any language to the contrary, both sides have to meet their obligation. If I don't talk about anything concerning the delivery and, as a seller I say "delivered", then it is on me as the seller. Now if I say "plus whatever shipping and/or insurance you want" then the obligation goes back to the buyer to either protect themselves or not. Very clear to me too.

+1

Totally agree, Mac

As a seller I use signature confirmation, and by default "self-insure". As a buyer I nearly always, but not exclusively, use Paypal G\S. The exception is when I successfully deal with someone multiple times. I need to rethink that practice.

Edited to add: Some posted their interperetation of the contract legalities siding with the seller (and they may be correct under the law). However, there exists a "norm" in the hobby that differs, and is the one under which I believe most of us operate.

Yikes.

As a seller myself, I feel I'm responsible for the item getting delivered. I've had multiple instances where an item has not reached the destination and I've had to eat the cost - it sucks, but I accept that as part of running an online/shipping based business.

The only examples I can really think of when I do not accept responsibility for delivery are when a buyer asks for items to be shipped without tracking to save on shipping costs, the buyer is in a country with poor logistics infrastructure and I clearly state I will not be held responsible if they want it shipped there, and/or when an item has been marked as delivered by a postal service but the buyer says they did not receive it (at that point I will try to help, but I feel it now becomes the buyer's responsibility assuming I have put in all of the correct details).

Certified
 

Certified is not the safest way to go. Certified mail goes in the regular mail stream with all of the other mail. The only protection you receive is the carrier signs for the certified piece before he/she heads out on the route, and the item cannot be delivered without the recipients signature. Then, the carrier shows the signature to the supervisor, upon return to the office, and the carrier is cleared.

Registered Mail is the safest route. It gets signed for by everyone who has contact with the Registered item, even the truck drivers have to sign a log for Registered items that are on their truck. The Registered item is kept separate from the rest of the mail and it never goes into the regular mail stream.

Rick, does Registered get delivered by my regular mail carrier?

It can. I have had 2 lost mail claims in over 20 years on EBay. Both times by showing what I sold the card for USPS paid for the lost item. Insurance is purchased by the seller and the claim paid to the seller.

Leon-Why not take the doubt out of it? Add a statement on the BST that sellers assume risk of loss until the item is delivered to the buyer unless stated otherwise.

Yes
 

Yes

Well put.

I’m sorry. I just do not understand why people think the seller should bear the entire loss. I’ve thoroughly explained the legal analysis, and how it works in the real world. People either do not know the law or simply do not care. People have grown so accustomed to how EBay and PayPal handle things.

These companies’ policies are just that - their policies. They are not the law and do not control two private individuals entering into a contract, especially if just Friends/Family is used.

Buyers and sellers need to take responsibility for their actions. Do your due diligence. Do not leave anything to chance or assumption. The reason is that one contractual party may assume A, while the other party assumes Z. The parties need to spell out the deal’s entire terms and conditions. It is not hard or difficult.

If two people enter into a contract that includes shipping, the contract is completed when the shipping carrier takes possession. It does not include delivery unless specified. The reason is that the seller, like the buyer, has no control over UPS, FedEx or the Postal Service. The seller is not the one delivering the package.

Yes, the seller may have chosen the Postal Service over UPS, but that decision, absent a negotiated carrier, still does not shift the loss risk onto the seller. These are acceptable carriers.

If a third-party carrier loses the package, it is not the seller’s fault. So, why should he take all the loss? What did he do wrong? The seller is also not at fault. So, the law aside, because both parties are innocent, and because this is a friendly board, I’d say to split the difference. Both parties take a 50% hit. But, those clamoring for the seller to take all the loss, absent certain negotiated terms, such as the required carrier, who bears the loss burden, insurance, etc., are just wrong - in equity and the law.

Geez, stop playing lawyer when you aren’t one.

There was no provision in the contract regarding the delivery method or choice of a common carrier. He simply purchased a card and a card was not received.

The seller saved a few bucks avoiding insurance and has probably done so many times before. That’s fine. But this Time the odds were against him and the seller needs to pay back the buyer from the accumulation of prior shipping savings.

anyone with an ounce of common sense disagrees (I am agreeing with you)

come on jay. you have been in the hobby longer than 99 percent of the people on this board. it has ALWAYS been that the seller assumes the risk and is responsible for getting the card to the buyer. there are article in hobby papers from the 70s stating this. sometimes you want to argue just to argue

Just so everyone is aware, I am not sidestepping my responsibilities in this matter. I have repeatedly been in contact with both the USPS consumer affairs department in Pittsburgh and Long Island, NY. Next week a refund will be issued, unless by some chance the package is found. I don't ask for any sympathy. All I will point out is that for the better number of the last twenty years, I have used certified mail. My estimate is this has totaled over 4,000 transactions. This is the second transaction via certified mail in which the cards have not arrived. The previous resulted in a refund to the buyer. I am just putting this statement out there and do with it what you will.

Completely disagree. Every transaction that I have ever been involved in I have brought up insurance. Many sellers offer in as part of the selling price, some do not. I never assume it is included--I check.

I feel like saying, You manage it and you got a deal :).
No way in h. e. double toothpicks will that happen.

we need a card.,...(and graders who can authenticate cards but that is for another thread. :) )

https://luckeycards.com/pf52frojoyruth.jpg

These aren't EBay and Paypal's policies. These are the policies of every credit card and issuing bank. EBay and PayPal have adopted them, but do make a few exemptions such as having tracking and showing it delivered, but the buyer claims they didn't receive. Their only other option would be to eat a bunch of charge backs.

We have a good thing here with people paying with friends and family to save both parties PayPal fees. If this becomes a thing where sellers are going to expect to get paid for cards that aren't delivered, then that is going away. Sellers will pay with their credit card to be protected from loss. The seller choses the shipper. The seller choses to buy insurance or not. Why should the buyer be penalized for choices the seller makes?

Paypay G/S versus F/F transaction--the rest of the story.

Working with a dealer with transaction to purchase a Gehrig Goudy card, I was a little short on cash to acquire card.

Not excepting a check, or credit card I was politely asked if I had Paypal--Yes, no problem I replied.

F/F I was advised would save us both a little $$--again no problem I thought. Having to use my cell phone I had issues with hitting those little numbers/letters. A young computer savvy person was watching my dilemma volunteered to assist. He entered the request and sent $1,000. After all was sent, the money went to someone else whom I didn't know. The young person said sorry and went on his business..Have I been scammed ?

I called Paypal several times and was advised because the funds were transferred per F/F there was no recourse on their end since the funds were not transferred per G/S! When I tries to use Paypal again to purchase the card my account was blocked, no fault of the seller.

I had to leave the show Sunday to catch my flight so didn't have a chance to go back to make the deal. I thought to myself I'm lucky it wasn't more money lost.

When I arrived home I received an email asking why I sent $1,000 to him. I relied what happened. He promptly refunded the money.

Moral of the story, IMO there are more honest people out there than not.

How nice for you. If you'll take a moment to reread, you'll see that the OP didn't ask for a legal opinion, he asked about what course to take. In my experience, people who replace a moral compass with legal chapter and verse are people I'd rather stay away from.

I don't buy many cards these days, but when I do it certainly won't be from you.

Whats your name? With 20 posts, I should say welcome to the forum. By chance do you know either party involved in this transaction?

As a seller since 1997 I always accept responsibility until the package shows delivered. However, I have had a few instances where a package shows delivered and the buyer claims that they didn't receive it. That is where I put my foot down and say that my job as a seller is complete and I no longer have liability for the lost package.

Jeff

Hope you don't take a loss, but but you are doing the right thing. As a past satisfied buyer from you I take notice and continue to have you on my list of "Grade A" sellers

Bob,

Thank you for the kind words.

+1

Thank you, John.

Now, back to the opinions and focus of the thread.

As an update - I can confirm that after requesting a refund again - I have been told to wait an additional week. I'm still a little frustrated that I am continuing to bear the entire burden of this for additional time but at the very least I have some kind of timeline. My biggest learning from this is simply that proactive and clear communication goes a LONG way. So on the plus side - my transactional empathy is at an all-time high.

Thanks to all who weighed in - I do appreciate it - as this is an unusual position for me to be in and I have not enjoyed it. I do hope this will be helpful in terms of setting up some additional best practices:

- seller assumes shipping responsibility once cards and shipping are paid for by buyer
- when shipping issue arise - seller should communicate proactively and clearly
- after 30 days - seller should refund item cost (exceptions maybe in special situations where there is a problematic/scammy history)
- insurance is optional for seller but this decision should not impact any of the above.
- in higher dollar transactions over 1k I actually video myself packing the items up and sealing them


I'm sure there are more but these are the ones that bubbled up as the chain here expanded. I'm hoping this is all resolved by Tuesday of next week

The video will do no good at all in any way.

I agree that 30 days is enough that a refund should be made. You having to wait over 2 months is crazy.

I'm glad the seller is going to do the right thing but 2 months is just way too long.

Yeah on the video - I've done it opening packages and that made me feel somehow secure so I started doing it as a seller in certain situations. But you're right taking a video of the packing process is barely an illusion of security with no way to prove any kind of chain of custody. Good call....

"-the seller looked up an address of a property I own and has asked multiple times why the cards weren't sent to an address of a house I own that my mother in law lives in
- presumably this address was looked up on White Pages via my name"

I am a bit curious about the answer to this part.....would this have anything to do with why it wasn't delivered?

Bob, I asked the same question and Who is TYRUSCOBB who has been posting in this thread without a name???????

Bob,

I will be more than happy to answer that question. I did the online search to see if there was any discrepancy in the address to which I mailed the cards to Kevin. One site, Mylife.com, had Brooklyn listed as a previous residence. Now, being anal retentive, I not only checked the address against a previous transaction I had with Kevin, but also checked online. Thus, I found the claim that his mailing address was a former address. Also, thus the reason I asked the question, not once but twice. I received a response on the first inquiry, but I wanted further clarification when I asked the second time.

So the search was done AFTER you mailed the item.......Thank you for the response.

I just wanted to add, that I didn't mean to imply that Brian wasn't going to hold up his end of the deal. Maybe it's not the timeline the OP would have liked, but sounds like Brian is making good on his end of the deal. I would absolutely continue to buy items from Brian without reservation...even more if he would ever give me that large discount I keep hoping for.

Mac

I don't think this person has crossed the "full-name" line yet for needing a name but they can consider this fair warning that anymore debating is going to need a full name.

The truth i still really want the cards! They were three Jimmie Foxx cards and believe it or not - that what I really wanted out of this :) The refund will absolutely go to more Jimmie Foxx and likely now an upgrade on my post card exhibit.

That's a very nice, authentic Fro Joy, Leon.

Just so everyone is clear, the transaction was for three Foxx cards and a 1933 Eddie Morgan card. I have to admit I forgot about the Eddie Morgan card when I was listing the contents with scans for the claim on the USPS website.

Thanks, Leon. I have visited this site, as a guest, for several years. I officially joined this past summer when EBay started collecting state sales tax. I joined to obtain access to the buy/sell/trade forum (guest viewers cannot access it).

I am always looking for a good card and deal to add to my low-grade vintage collection (not investment). I joined to potentially save money in buying cards (avoiding fees, etc). I have successfully transacted with two members. Everything went smoothly both times.

I do not post a lot, but enjoy reading them and learning. I ventured into this topic, because it involves the law. I do not practice in this specific legal area, but have some experience in it many years ago.

This debate interested me. I do not have a dog in this fight. I do not know either party. I was just providing my humble opinion. I’ll return to the shadows now.

Just an update. Kevin has been refunded his money including s/h. If anyone sees the following cards, please let me know.

funny that it involves these cards!

I made an offer on those Foxx's wondering who you sold those too....guess i know now..

if you happen to get them back Id still be interested in one or more of them and i never had a problem with the mail.

I also have "never had a problem" receiving mail until this transaction - but you can certainly engage the seller of the cards I ordered if they are found. For factual transparency'a sake I received the refund after 11 weeks. I asked for restitution after month 1 and month 2 with a total of 4 requests.

I wanted to add that if you are looking to add some extra life to your business (if you try to make money selling cards/memorabilia) - it would be wise to remember that the true test of customer service is when there is an issue/problem in transactions.

Merely expecting having items delivered on time by a postal carrier is table stakes and NOT a wise customer service strategy. Everyone gets good reviews when an item is delivered on time. I will certainly consider this the next time I select a vendor for purchase.