Crandall Meeting
 

There were several different kinds of pizza. At the end of the meeting there were at least two left over untouched and mint in the box. Jim said they would be thrown out otherwise, so I took two home. One I gave to a homeless man at the corner of 38th and Park on my way to my son's apartment. I realize now that the only thing he was interested in was hard currency, but it made me feel good. The other I enjoyed with my son, compliments of Jim. I grew up in the depth of the Great Depression, and I still can't bear to see food go to waste. Those who were with me at Barry's New York Net54 meeting at Spark's Steak House a few years ago can attest. With regard to which, I have never thanked Wondo properly for picking up the check. The largest I have ever seen in my life.

Barry did pin Dave Foreman down on the matter of the matter of repeated submissions. My conversations with Doug Allen were private on other matters, like Bob Shawkey's 1927 WS Ring, but Mastro was indeed on top of the Hobby, and Doug could orate from strength. He had to do some bobbing and weaving but managed to leave the impression that a "small percentage" of cards might be altered.

I am a Mathematical Statistician by profession, and I would introduce at this time to the Net54 conversation the perception and psychological value of the "5% level" to the layman's eye that an observed event that can occur by chance "less than 5% under some appropriate Null Hypothesis" is real, and that "greater than 5%" might be, well, simply due to chance.

An example would be when the Players Association replied to Canseco's charges of drug use that "maybe less than 5% might be users." It is still being used today as some kind of magic number that "we cannot control" and therefore okay.

I stand with those who say that a single example of altering offends.

I've been in the business thirty-five years, and while I know there are many passionate collectors who love collecting and love baseball history, what I've taken away is that this hobby is first and foremost about money. And if telling the truth about some of the problems with baseball cards will cost them money, in some cases quite a bit, they are going to fight it to the death.

The revelations of the past few months, which have been known by some of us for over a decade but are now widely known by many, could potentially cost some an incredible amount of money. And those with a major investment will not take this lightly.

Nevertheless, the truth marches on. It's there for you to accept or reject.

The most powerful force I can think of to solve most anything is market force -- people acting in the manner most consistent with their economic interests. How does that pertain here? If and when there is a TPG alternative that through the use of technology can weed out alterations, then to hold value cards will have to reholdered by this new method.

Yes, I recognize that there is skepticism such a new grading method will come into being. But let's proceed on the assumption that it does come into being. It would not then be up to the seller to determine what grading method will create the most value for his/her card. It would be up to the buyer, and what rational buyer would not prefer the card in the new TPG holder, all other things being equal (e.g., player, issue, grade).

What am I missing with this analysis?

Edited to add that what I am saying IS consistent with the notion "that it is all about the money". The incentive to create a new TPG using technology to weed out alterations is because the founder(s) of such a company I believe can make a lot of money. And should that come to pass, then what buyer before spending his/her money on a high grade vintage card would not want to see it in this new TPG's holder?

Sadly I think you're right. Unless I am drastically underestimating what law enforcement will be able to accomplish here, and I think however well-intended and vigorous it will be limited, the unholy alliance of TPGs and (most) AHs and dealers and card doctors will just stamp it out and keep on keeping on. Too much easy money, too many really scummy people, not enough collectors who genuinely care. The ultimate cluster f***.

That was an interesting trip down memory lane. Hey, I took some heat in that thread too.

I disagree with this. I do think they want the hobby cleaned up. The problem is the ability to detect alterations. Once there is a company that can do this at a high rate, I think buyers will want their cards to be inspected upon purchase. Cash is king and the buyers hold all the power. Once altered cards can no longer be sold to buyers, only then will things change for the better.

Speaking as a tiny money guy if I was a Big Money Investor and I was planning on dipping into this Industry after after having studied the last 30 years of the hobby I would believe all the big money in this industry has already been made .....meaning forget it invest in muni bonds lmao

I'm holding on to a wee bit of optimism here...

I cannot recall any "scandal" quite this big within the hobby. I don't think Mastro or Operation Bullpen even came close. And there are still so many tainted cards that have not yet been revealed. Remember that Mastro/Allen and the Marinos were both put out of business after similar investigations.

I concede that nothing has changed as a result of past events, but this feels bigger. I have a slight inkling that the FBI will uncover some of the key pieces to this puzzle, and hopefully come down hard on the key parties involved.

If not, then I agree we are just in for more of the same. "Conservation" will prevail, and no changes are likely to happen (in our lifetimes anyway). This is THE opportunity for change, and just pray they don't blow it.

I think the below link contains information about a pizza meeting in winter:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84000

Brian

The word is now widespread that TPGs either suck at detecting alterations or they're turning a blind eye. Has it impacted sales substantially? Or are people still buying like rabbits on Viagra?

Sadly people are still blindingly buying like rabbits on viagra it’s gonna crash just not yet but predict it will

That's it Brian, thank you. So the meeting was in January, 2007. and I forgot about Dan Gantt, who sadly passed away a number of years ago.

Our hope of getting together a collector's organization never got off the ground.

The first paragraph states my impression as well. And, as a fact-based and truth searching person, I have zero respect for those kinds of people. However, those kinds of people are only a portion of the hobby. Anyone who reads this and other boards knows there are many collectors concerned with facts, the truth and, shockingly, accurate grading and authentication.

Happily, I think that facts, knowledge and truth generally win out, later is sooner. When facts become common hobby knowledge, the knowledge wins out. Why? Because everyone knows.

I recommend reading, or reading about, Thomas Kuhn's Structures of Scientific Revolutions.

Regarding their inability to detect alterations...

True in most cases, but I think there's more going on. Many of those trimmed cards are ridiculously short in their holders, and are so obviously trimmed. The amount of air space between the cards' borders and the "frame" is astounding, and there's no explanation as to why those cards passed. Some of the re-touched and re-colored cards are obvious upon first glance. Countless examples of amateurish restoration.

I could go on and on, but bottom-line is that PSA is either...

A. Spending no time inspecting these
B. Is incompetent to perform the one thing they're supposed to do
C. Is granting favorable grades to certain entities
D. Is simply turning a blind eye in many cases

It can only be one, or a mixture of all 4 of the reasons above. And none of those reasons bode well for them. I know that the registry crowd and heavily-invested client base will continue to support them, regardless. But the rest of us should take a stand.

Sorry to ramble, and didn't mean to nitpick the quoted post, as I agree with everything else that was said. But if PSA would just address the damned issue head-on and admit some level of responsibility, it might represent a good start towards fixing this.

In a world when in the middle of this unprecedented scandal Steve Sloan can get up in front of the PSA community and not even mention it, that should tell us something.

I sincerely hope it is going to crash and all the bad people will disappear.

In reality I see absolutely nothing happening. Like has been posted it is all about the $. Nothing happened in any case I can think of. A few idiots got out after the Mastro debacle. The smart scum that gave the collectors the big FU are bigger now than before Mastro got lightly slapped on his fingers.

As far as PSA, they have gave the big FU to collectors for years. The dumb collectors line up and say "please sir can I have another".

I am at the point I couldn't care less about the dumb lemmings.:eek:

No, Yes. But...…...let's see how the picture changes if/when this new TPG comes into being.

The situation reminds me in a way of something my company encounters with commercial real estate. The parking lots are meant for customers and employees. No overnight parking is allowed. Both of these rules used to be blatantly flouted despite signage and leaflets announcing violators will be towed. Then one day/night we started towing. From that point on the rules were followed.

The point is that talk is cheap. And that includes talk about this new fantastic TPG on the horizon. But IMO the actions people are taking now are not necessarily indicative of how they will act once the circumstances change -- which in the case of this hobby is a TPG that will allow a prospective buyer to know if the card is altered.

Corey I hope you're right. That said, I think TPGs are at least capable of doing a much better job now. The incentives apparently lie in not doing so.

Clearly PSA has no incentive. Why would they want to create a method that if successful in detectng alterations would result in a flood of claims under their grading guarantee?

No, I mean no incentive to grade properly now. Their incompetence, or blind eye, or worse, are feeding the machine.

They're making money hand over fist. Why change if via their registry they are the main player in town? Not to mention that any change that doesn't introduce new technological methods to detect alterations will cost them on their bottom line via the need to spend more time examining each submission.

Sadly it seems that everyone wins except the collectors who at the end of the day are left holding their bag of altered crap.

Yes, and also no. Many of these "collectors" are slab collectors, not card collectors. So to some degree they have made their own bed. And the point applies double for registry collectors.

Amen.

Fair enough. And maybe, just maybe, some of the rabbits have stopped buying from PWCC, as if that alone is going to do much either for them or the hobby.

Peter, who suddenly turned you into Eyor? Keep fighting the good fight. You and BODA are, and hopefully will continue, making a difference. What’s the worst that happens.... nothing changes. Thus, things can only get better and there is traction for that - FBI subpoenas, USA Today articles, some “rabbits” like me boycotting certain dealers, etc. And even if grassroot efforts cease, nothing good will come from the defeatist posts- that’s one way to embolden the wolves. Forward!! Or at least not backwards...

Ryan, Al's post today was a sobering reminder that I've been complaining about hobby fraud for more than a decade now and, as he rightly put it, zero has changed. Another tipping point was trying unsuccessfully to get an obviously cleaned card taken down from an active auction. I'm like, what's the use?

You're right, the negativity was counterproductive and too melodramatic, I regret calling attention to myself I was just extremely frustrated by it all and I guess like anyone who is passionate about something and makes a lot of effort, I have a bit of ego invested in it. I'll refrain from now on.

PS the rabbits reference was a bit over the top but I said it and it's been quoted anyway so I'll just leave it standing. Sorry if it offended, but if people don't want to spend their hard earned money on altered cards they really need to exercise some restraint and educate themselves, because the powers that be are not looking out for you.

I'm not expecting any earth shattering changes, but this time somehow feels a little different. In the past we've had discussions about card doctoring, but we've never had the documentation that BO provided, and they did so hundreds of times over. That's a whole lot of evidence to back up the allegations.

Of course people with money and power will do everything they can to deny and cover this up, but the momentum is shifting. And I don't think it's far-fetched to suggest that new technology will be developed to expose all of the garbage that has been slabbed.

It won't happen tomorrow but I believe in the not too distant future we are going to see something change. Yes, we may be disappointed in its limited scope, but I remain guardedly optimistic.

I’ve been called much worse than a rabbit!!

Anyway, I for one, have been very encouraged by the recent press, the attention on chat boards, and news of law enforcement involvement. At least there is some tangible proof of something (not sure what). You are a huge part of that. Thank you

It's always worth fighting for the thing you think is right, even if you lose. Even if you lose repeatedly.

-Al

It would have to tank really far for the bad people to abandon it.
There were altered cards, and outright fakes in 1977-78 when I first got involved in anything besides buying packs.
71 Topps got recolored when they were 10 cents each.
The fake I bought at my first show was a whole $2. And there were no computer printers or copy machines that could do a good enough job, so it was press printed, which isn't a trivial effort.

I can't see things tanking that far.

Me either but we can always hope.

I hope Peter, the BO guys, and everyone else keeps up the fight.

Agree ! Peter and BO have done a great job among many others on this board who call out all the crap. I feel beaten down and depressed about it but I won’t stop calling it for what it is !

It also has to suck when your compadre is minimizing PWCC's involvement by saying it's only a couple hundred cards and hundreds of PWCC customers have already been refunded. I guess it's all over then. Jeff was looking out for us after all.

One, he actually said hundreds, not a couple of hundred. Two, it's a quote by a lawyer to the media, it won't affect anything. Three, my understanding is that Jeff has obtained over $1 million in restitution so far. While obviously I hope much more is done to punish the culpable, I do think that's for the good.

+1

I recall an attempt at an organization for honest dealers. It was after hours at the first Baltimore National. It seemed like a hush hush meeting that I was invited to. I arrived a little late and there were maybe 15 dealers. I do not recall any of the topics.

+1

I may be naive, but the FBI is involved and I don't think they are going to leave things status quo. The FBI doesn't want to be fielding another investigation in a year or so with evidence from BODA with the same bad actors. Much like autographs, I see a big change. We will probably always have dishonest people altering cards and trying to pass them by TPGs, the same as we see with autos, but at a smaller scale. I had several dealers at the National tell me that TPGs are under pressure to tighten things up. They may lose business from card doctors, but they are a lot more profitable than they were in the past. It is a better option than dealing with the FBI. Maybe they will be able to meet their grading deadlines.

I talked with a number of collectors at the National about this too. The consensus is they are taking more care and buying less. When they buy something, they are no longer trusting TPGs and the slab. They are measuring and closely examining cards before deciding to keep them or send them back. I wouldn't put it past those who are heavily invested in slabs to be buying/shilling auctions to make it appear like things are still going strong while they try to liquidate. We saw that happen in 2016 with certain rookie cards. I am hopeful that at some point a new company will come along with new technology to detect altered cards, making it close to impossible for doctors to pass off their work on collectors.

+1

That's interesting that over $1 million has been paid in restitution so far. I would be curious to know if the customer's confidence in PSA has changed as a result in realizing some of their cards have been doctored or will it be business as usual?

It would disgust me to no end that PSA would get away with not paying any damages regarding this scandal. Hopefully they will shoulder the burden at some point as an incentive to clean up their act and be more vigilant in screening out the card doctors.

Thanks Al, That's just what I'm trying to do by NEVER buying another card again. Not too many people care, but I take fraud seriously and do not support hobby's that are proven to be run by criminals like PWCC, PSA and all the other little card trimmers. I just don't need it, honestly. Just like I stopped with autographs. Very easy.

I try to stand up against companies I do not believe in. Did not buy an American car for 30 years and guess what.... NO MORE PROBLEMS. My wish came true when GM went bankrupt only to be bailed out. I was rooting for them to rot. So I fought for 3o+ years and lost there and many times over. Still, I will stand for something or nothing at all.

+1

If PSA gets off scot free, then nothing is solved. As mentioned earlier, it's great that PWCC is refunding customers... certainly better than the alternative.

But that does not fix anything, moving forward. If we stop at simply issuing refunds, the same thing will occur again in the not so distant future. The punishment for card doctors and complicit auction houses must be severe and lengthy. And there must be a change in the way TPGs operate. A new set of standards must be implemented or forced upon them, as they cannot be trusted to police themselves. There is absolutely no safeguard in place to protect the customer/collector. Hopefully law enforcement will help to fill that role.

If not, then indeed nothing will change.

If the past is indicative of future results I’d say unfortunately PSA will get away with it again .....Registry is and will continue to be the brilliance that keeps them in business it’s a shame but Big Money Trumps All ....I would be surprised if PSA takes any Or is held accountable with anything.
It’s up to the Market/Consumers to put PSA in it’s place not LE.

Johnny- at the end of the day it will be the buyer, and not PSA, who will determine what all these slabbed cards are worth. We have no certainty where this is all heading, but if the buyers lose confidence prices will fall. Yes, some will hold onto their slabbed cards for dear life, but the buyers and not the sellers will be in control of the situation.

It's sad because when PSA started there was no set rules about grading they made up there own rules and everyone followed right along. They didn't have anyone to tell them what was right or wrong because there was no grading before that. That is why there needs to be set standards or something for these TPG to abide to otherwise they will just keep slipping under the radar forever.

Al, I can perhaps understand your feelings about the Beatles. But what about those nice London boys, the Sex Pistols who were punk pioneers? Strangely enough, many have said they were talentless outlaws. I must admit to being mildly amused by their band names, Johnny Rotten and Sid Vicious. I was living in London at the time when they hit the scene, causing quite a commotion and lots of controversy.

Exactly

If I store my cards in a vault somewhere and sell it to a buyer who stores his cards in the same vault somewhere, I would be less concerned about the buyer’s eyes affecting the purchase price. To quote Alfred E. Newman, “What? Me Worry?”:D

Duplicate Post - What? me Worry?
 

If I store my cards in a vault somewhere and sell it to a buyer who stores his cards in the same vault somewhere, I would be less concerned about the buyer’s eyes affecting the purchase price. To quote Alfred E. Newman, “What? Me Worry?”:D