Marquard signed T206 only went for $1,200. Ouch. Guess that market will need a long time to recover.

Great auction (hate the hard stop, all lots at midnight, ebay-style auction though - see below).

Aside from the D303 Lajoie, I got totally blown out. The E107 Lajoie went for crazy money and I finally backed off the T206 Willetts Brown Lenox once it pushed past $16k. Crazy prices on these. I also thought may of the rare-back T206s did well, especially the Wajo and Young Hindus, and the Speaker BL 350. I would have bid on several of these and others, but the hard stop at midnight scared me and I just backed off everything.

In my opinion, the steal of the auction was the E107 Plank for under $10k.

All-in-all, I expect consignors are happy.

On a different note, I have grown to very much dislike the every lot closing at midnight thing. Its basically like Ebay now. I had no idea how much I would be in for, or how much of my max bids would be used, so it was very difficult to estimate the parameters of my potential liability. As a result, i just gave up. I strongly prefer the close at 3am or the lot-by-lot closing. Having an Ebay-type closing in an auction of this size and magnitude is really tough in my opinion.

It would make far more sense for Brian to close all of the lots that haven’t had a bid on them for say 15 minutes at midinight and then leave the rest, maybe 5% or so, to operate on even a 5 minute rule. This way the consignor gets more for their items and you get to walk away when the price gets too high for you rather than getting sniped with seconds left. Everyone would benefit and then you’re not left with a queasy feeling at midnight when it should be a happy moment for you.

wonder what the reserve was on that e121 ruth that didn't sell...someone's greedy!!!!

Not directed at Ryan, but after countless discussions it's abundantly clear that no matter what closing format is used, there are going to be people who dislike it.

And I agree with you Ryan on the E107’s. I have no idea why the Lajoie went so crazy and the Plank was so cheap that I considered buying a second one. I took the Waddell instead.

Lajoie is much more tough than Plank, Plank is actually one of, if not the easiest, e107 HOFer.

Yes I now see.

I’m happy Jay consigned.

Many significant bids on memorabilia in both REA and Heritage. But was passed in the last furlong in REA on some nice stuff and was fast asleep for hours when my Heritage stuff closed. Oh well. A complete shut out. Maybe time to get the roof repaired instead.

No business in the world where people stand in line with a fistful of thousands of dollars but have to stay up past their bed time for an opportunity to hand it to you. I should have sold my house by having a line around the block in the middle of the night. Probably would have worked like magic.

Peter, I agree. No style is ideal. But in my opinion, the ebay-style, snipe at the last minute is the worst. I like Steven's idea.

Steven, I am sorry but i cost you $300 on the Waddell - I hit it one time after I got smoked on the Lajoie, just bc it seemed so relatively reasonable, but I let it go after that. Great looking card

Jeff, I agree the Plank is relatively common and the Lajoie actually real tough, especially in a numerical grade. That said, the Plank is normally a $16k+ card. Notwithstanding the paper loss on the front, under $10k was real cheap. And I knew the Lajoie would be expensive, but holy $43k!! So, i thinjk the Plank went super cheap and the Lajoie super expensive and the $33k+ gap not so justified.

I am regretting that I did not go back up on the Young Hindu and the Speaker BL 350 - those are two real pretty cards. Congrats to the winner(s)

Hard too to imagine another business (I am probably wrong) where a bunch of dirtbag lowlifes hold such sway over otherwise highly successful and sophisticated people.

Ryan, I think $300 is the least you have ever cost me since I have been doing this so I will take that as good fortune!

Closing Method
 

I believe the best closing method is Love of the Game's where if a lot gets a bid in the first extended period (about 10% of the items), it will then go into the second overtime period thereby eliminating the need for most people to stay up as 85% - 95% of the lots will close in the first extended period. Simple but effective

Ah, prob true in all high end collecting. I see those high end car auctions on TV. I’d be amazed if the same types of chicanery don’t go on there. Ditto coins, stamps and many other things.

Is this your way of saying you were shut out again?

I agree. I like LOTG's closing system a lot. Then again, their is not much not to like about LOTG

I got sniped at the end of my one remaining card. I slowly lost all 5 that I had at the beginning of the extended session. Oh well, I guess I need to be a little more aggressive.

So true.

With the sharp midnight closing, there likely was money left on the table. On one of the lots I was bidding on, after I was topped at the 11:59 (and therefore faced with the reality, not the hypothetical, of being topped), I tried to get in one more bid, but lost out by two or three seconds.

There have been countless discussions how to have the best of all worlds -- to get maximum dollar for the consignor yet at the same time allow bidders to keep bidding on ALL their lots until the entire the auction closes, yet to do it in a way where one can get to sleep at a reasonable hour.

I've often wondered why the following method hasn't been tried (unless the software doesn't exist):

1. Start extended bidding at the earliest reasonable hour (REA's is 6 pm, which is earlier than other AHs do);
2. With each succeeding constant time interval, say, one hour, to reduce the period after which if a bid is not received, the auction closes. So if the time interval is 15 minutes at the start of extended bidding, to reduce it by, say, 3 minutes every hour. Then, when it is down to 3 minutes, to reduce it by one minute each hour. When the interval has been reduced to one minute, all remaining bidders will need to be glued to their computers/devices as if the bidding is live, and I suspect the auction will end very quickly.
3. Accompanying this would a redesign of the list of a bidder's items so as to always show on the top and in a different font/color those items that have been topped. This will address the difficulty that bidders who are watching many lots have in noticing which lots have been topped, a concern especially relevant as the bidding interval gets down to one minute.

Needles to say, there are an infinite number of ways to implement the above concept in terms of when extended bidding begins, time period after which bidding intervals decreases, how much to decrease the interval, etc. But my point is that while there may never be a closing method that satisfies all, I'm not persuaded the hobby has yet to hit the ideal method.

LOL no my post had nothing to do with REA.

Good so I will look forward to the PSA 8 Werner Heisenberg Drakes Coffee Cake card in the August pickups.

At least one of us thinks you're funny.:eek:

It’s funny.

There you go.

Corey,
I used the descending clock in my auctions, and although mine were pretty small with only a couple of hundred lots, I know the software is out there and felt it was a good system.

Having done auctions and seeing how they work on the inside, I feel it is best to have a procedure where bidders are forced to sit at their computers, pay attention, and get all their bids in. All the dead time when bidders feel it's too early to bid, and as such do nothing, doesn't benefit anyone.

But no system is perfect, or liked by everyone.

Yeah, there is no perfect system. In a perfect world I'd like auction closes at 9 pm EST and then closes lot by lot when no bid has been placed in 15 minutes. I think a few use that now.

The idea that I have thousands burning a hole in my pocket and if I get passed on an item at 3 am, and won't go higher, damm it I'm hell bent on deploying this money somewhere and will immediately rush elsewhere to buy something is just so freakin absurd. Like we are all out of control crackheads on the floor looking for something, anything . . .

Steve,

Respectfully while perhaps this is something you would not do, others, including myself, look at it differently. Almost all collectors have limited budgets, and many/most of them cannot afford to buy everything in a particular auction they have an interest in. So they prioritize, and if possible would like the ability to shift to item B if item A becomes too pricey. I'm not sure I understand the absurdity behind that concept.

I vividly remember an auction where there was one item I wanted more than anything, even if it meant spending all my available funds on that one item. So in the wee hours of the morning the price of that item became unaffordable. I then shifted my available funds to other items that I still had a strong interest in, and won a number of them. So while I didn't get exactly what I wanted, I still felt I had a good night, consignors got more money, and the auction was more profitable for the AH.

Yes, I get it that other bidders who did not stay up got shut out of the lots I won. And one can reasonably argue the fairness of that because they refused to stay up to some crazy hour. So that is why I introduced for discussion another closing method so as to better address the concerns of all.

Consigned one item which in the context of thing was a very minor one. Was pleased with the process and came out fine on it.

Hey, I totally understand. Different collectors, different strategies, different ways to manage things.

Just seems to that other than the rare black swan kind of thing you'll see the same stuff again and again in future auctions, so why beat yourself up to get something. But to each his own.


QUOTE=benjulmag;1909636]Steve,

Respectfully while perhaps this is something you would not do, others, including myself, look at it differently. Almost all collectors have limited budgets, and many/most of them cannot afford to buy everything in a particular auction they have an interest in. So they prioritize, and if possible would like the ability to shift to item B if item A becomes too pricey. I'm not sure I understand the absurdity behind that concept.

I vividly remember an auction where there was one item I wanted more than anything, even if it meant spending all my available funds on that one item. So in the wee hours of the morning the price of that item became unaffordable. I then shifted my available funds to other items that I still had a strong interest in, and won a number of them. So while I didn't get exactly what I wanted, I still felt I had a good night, consignors got more money, and the auction was more profitable for the AH.

Yes, I get it that other bidders who did not stay up got shut out of the lots I won. And one can reasonably argue the fairness of that because they refused to stay up to some crazy hour. So that is why I introduced for discussion another closing method so as to better address the concerns of all.[/QUOTE]

It becomes extremely difficult to put in numerous high ceiling bids and then have to worry they all hit and you’re left with a tab outside your budget. An item should be won by the person who is willing to pay the most for the item and not the person who can snipe it better. After all isn’t there a responsibility by the auction house owner to ensure his consignor gets the most for their items? I know with certainty that did not happen last night. For me, there is no question I would never give REA any items of mine until they change their format. As I was fighting to stay awake this weekend bidding on Heritage, at least I felt I was in control over whether I would win an item or not and bid until I had enough. That’s how it should be. Maybe 30 minutes is too long but 5-10 minutes is not unreasonable.

I see the Plank as normally an under 10k card with the last couple in REA (before last night) being pushed by a few overly aggressive bidders. To me, Plank should not be more expensive than say Waddell (which was more the bargain considering how nice it was).

But agreed, Lajoie price was extremely strong no doubt, think that gap was too wide as well. They don't come up often and someone really went for it.

As a bidder, I can't stand the "Lot by Lot" closing method. If you are in on multiple items, and get outbid late on your first choices, there is no ability to return to an alternative lot (because it has already closed separately). It's actually infuriating, and I think most of us who have a limited budget can relate...

As a consignor, I hate "Lot by Lot" even more, because I KNOW money was left on the table (for the same reason as stated above).

So I think REA's closing format is better, while still perhaps flawed given the hard close at midnight. I think they're leaving some money on the table, but it's far better than the Lot by Lot method. True, people will complain regardless of the closing method.... But I think LOTG really does it best. Their method feels like the best balance between the Consignor and Bidder (who wants to get at least some sleep).

As for last night…
A great auction on the memorabilia side especially. Really strong prices across the board. I felt fortunate to barely squeak out one win.

Steven and Cory, I agree 100% with you both. Well said.

Interesting perspective Mark and that makes sense too. I just think a lot of what you are suggesting could go against you just as easily if the lots close all at once. For example, you’re winning your favorite lot and at 11:59 40 seconds you get sniped. If they all close at once you are pretty much finished. If they close lot by lot you can still potentially bid on something else. So I’m not sure ending them all at once necessarily solves that problem and it becomes just luck either way if you get outbid whether they all close at once or lot by lot.

To me closing them individually gives you a truer picture of interest and willing expenditure on an item. And if you lose an item you can then look at the rest that are open.

Perhaps there is no perfect system, but as I’m sitting by a computer at midnight last night and saying wtf just happened, I think a positive feeling becomes negative very quickly. At least in Heritage I have 30 minutes to regroup and decide if I want to bid on.

Different people give the exact same reason for disliking both methods. This is what I meant before -- there's just no consensus and no possibility of a consensus.

Hey Jeff! I hope you picked up some nice items.

As for closing method, my favorite is a live auction format. Start with Lot 1, fight it out, move on to Lot 2. Every on line closing method has issues. If I were running an auction house I would use a variation of LOTG’s closing. All lots with no bids in the last half hour close at 11PM EDT. All remaining lots close individually with a 5 minute rule. This eliminates the traffic jam at the end and has virtually everyone to bed by midnight.

Why doesn't the method suggested in post #69 offer the best of both worlds? With a steadily declining time interval after which the entire auction closes, the auction would both end at a reasonable hour and at the same time give bidders the option to switch to other lots if outbid on another lot. Sniping would not exist, and a bidder would know that if he got outbid on a lot, it was because he/she made the conscious choice not to go higher.

To my knowledge, this method has not been tried and if the software, as Barry says, exists, why not give it a shot? The only down side I suppose is that it will force bidders to literally sit by their computers/devices at the very end. But at least by doing so they will have full control over what happens.

And that’s how big auction houses like Sotheby’s and Christie’s do it. One by one and on the Internet you can tunnel in to the room where the auction is being held and bid live.

I’m still struggling with understanding why closing the items all at once helps someone on a limited budget. It seems as if you run the same good or bad luck depending on when you get outbid on the item as you’re screwed if you get outbid right at the end and have nowhere to turn if they close all at once. Perhaps I’m missing something.

It has been tried, I used it. And it worked very well.

Brian is one of the very honorable guys in an industry I am understanding more and more to be a little more corrupt than one would like. I would be very surprised if he did not carefully think through all of these various issues and come up with a more equitable solution going forward. And whatever that may be, I would like to think that the winner of the auction will be determined by the person willing to pay the most at the time that particular lot is closing and not by someone sniping at the last second.

Here's how (and this what actually happened). I have a budget of X. There are 7 lots I have qualifying bids in on. One of them is literally a unique item which perfectly fits my collection and, by definition, being unique this is my one shot to get it. So I save my entire budget of X for that item. At 3:45 AM I got outbid once again, and this time I was at my budget. So I went back to those other 6 lots that I had qualifying bids in on and THAT WERE STILL OPEN BECAUSE ALL THE LOTS CLOSED AT THE SAME TIME, and started bidding on them. I ended up winning I think 4 of them, none of which I would have won had they had individual closing times.

Had the extended bidding period begun at an early enough hour and the bidding interval as midnight approached been steadily reduced to one minute, this entire scenario would have played out hours earlier.

How many auctions are really won by last second snipes?

But Corey, you could have just as easily gotten outbid with 15 seconds to go before all of the lots ended and you would have gotten nothing. It just happened to be in your case that you were outbid with plenty of time to place other bids.

Plenty last night.

OK. It doesn't seem to happen much at my pedestrian level.:eek:

Steve, I got outbid at 3:45 in the morning. For all I know the other six lots I had qualifying bids in on had been inactive since 10 PM (and if so would have closed). When I got outbid that last time, by the method I described (the ENTIRE auction remains open until NO lot has received a bid for 60 seconds), I would have had 60 seconds to regroup and place bids on these other six lots. With the bidding interval remaining at 60 seconds, I would always have that time to decide what to do. If all this starts playing out at, say, 11 pm (when the interval reduces to 60 seconds), all bidders will be at their computers/devices and constantly monitoring what is happening. I suspect 95% of the lots by that 11 pm hour will have reached their limit, so for the 5% left and the interval only 60 seconds, I bet the remaining active lots are all over within minutes.

Corey, I thought that even the auctions that remain open well into the morning have a hard close time that is not dependent on the amount of time a last bid was placed on an item in the auction. But it’s an arbitrary time determined by the auction house themselves. Perhaps what I’m saying is incorrect and they do just continue until there is no bid for a certain amount of time. If that’s the case then you will always have time to bid on something else but perhaps someone else can chime in whether even in that circumstance does the auction continue for as long as there is a bid being placed on any item?

My experience is when the items close lot by lot, that most of the auctions close at the same time or close to it anyways. Generally you know that the lot is past your limit before OT and you can shift to other items and you get to bed at an earlier time.

I like your idea of 1 minute intervals. I would have like to seen all the items that got sniped, get reset at 1 minute giving those that got outbid at the last second a chance to respond. I won my 2nd item ever in REA last night because cards just aren't worth staying up all night to bid on, but if I got sniped, I would have been out of luck with money sitting in my pocket and I had backup items that I wouldn't be able to bid on because the whole auction closed. So, closing all items at once, at midnight or the wee hours of the morning, can still leave you missing out.

You have the option of setting a higher bid so you don't get sniped. If you didn't do that, isn't it on you? Why aren't we just calling that "lazy" instead of a problem? The snipe WAS the highest bid at closing time.

I don't necessarily love the hard stop the way it happened, but I knew it was possible and even likely. As a matter of fact, I was about to bid on two other items because I'd gotten outbid on the most expensive item I was chasing around 11:40P. But I got lazy, hit bid about 8 seconds too late. Oh well.

And, NO I do not think the auction house has responsibility to get the highest price for every item - that's a totally false premise that they can't control. The "market" is much larger than the bidder IDs at REA - frequently the person willing to pay the most isn't even bidding in some of these auctions. Time, resources, awareness, all of those things factor in. REA got good exposure, they normally do solid but not overly flowerly write-ups and they run a fair auction process. I think they did their job.

Last night.... a number of them were.

Cory, the 3:45am thing is different than the 12am thing in two ways (i) in the 3:45 one, the auction house does not give warning that its going to end and it ends at a firm time -- they tell you its almost over at some point and eventually they let the last 15 minutes run and don't restart -- in other words, the auction ends without true warning, so people have their bids in earlier out of caution and can't snipe, and (ii) by 3:45am, almost everyone has put in their best bid and gone to bed, so there would be very little last minute-sniping, even if sniping were possible.