Well if PSA is indeed paying out on these, i dont know how you would go with any other TPG who doesnt...and would understand why auction prices for same numbered PSA slabs versus other companies slabs go for higher

forget the registry or harshness of grading...being paid back on a trimmed card would be the #1 reason to me to pay more for a PSA graded card or other TPG that actually pays on a guarantee.

yeah you can attempt to also go after the seller but having two options is better than one.

It's been posted that PSA has a long history of squashing people on guarantee claims though.

If dealers are the ones held responsible for TPA mistakes, that will help plummet the market for graded cards.

Personally, I think dealers should take much responsibility for what the sell (even with the have LOA's etc), but also know it's unfair for them to take full responsibility and physical examination of items they can't physically examine because of they have been entombed in plastic since they had it . . . But, if they are held fully responsible, that is why the market for graded will plummet. The dealers won't have confidence in the grades/authentication, and, when buying and selling, will be wary of the TPA's opinions. The TPA opinions won't mean as much to them, and, if they are fully responsible despite what the TPA says, the dealers may no longer wish to get the items graded.

It also may result in TPA's being used and considered for what they really are: giving a second opinion-- nothing less, but nothiing more. They will no longer be metaphysical arbiter and financial guaranteer.

Duly note that TPA's being treated as arbiter of truth is largely a matter of the buyers and sellers, not the TPA. For example, the TPA autograph LOAs specifically say on the letters that they are offering opinions (it's literally there in black and white). It is the collectors and dealers (rather, many of them) that treat the letters as something more. The TPAs don't sell the cards or autographs-- it is the buyers and sellers who, on their own, construct that market and its axioms.

I rail against the registry and its dubious statistical calculations. However, in defense of PSA, they don't buy or sell any of the registry sets or say how they should bought or sold or priced. How the sets are bought and sold, valuated and considered vis a vis the registry rankings is a construct of the buyers and sellers.

To put it into Seinfeldese, with all the drama and moral angst about who deserves credit for handing Elain the big salad, the punchline was "It was just a big salad."

The big salad

So, yes, the PSA registry is just a big salad-- which some might say implies that the buyers and sellers are a bunch of George Costanzas (with a Newman or two thrown in).

And, no, no one is saying there's anything wrong with a big salad. I like salad. Just don't base your religion on it.

I'm not a dealer or a seller, I'm a hoarder!
Imo, if you want to keep a customer you offer a refund or some kind of deal.

A year or more later, I would not refund. What items that you purchase are guaranteed that long by the seller? If it was a few weeks up to maybe 30 days, I'd consider it.

That is a good point. I think giving a fair (and stated upfront) return period, including a duration for the collector to check out the item and get second opinions, is, well, fair.

Of course some collectors want, and sometimes insist in preacher tones from the rooftops, on a double their money back guarantee to infinity plus one year and rights to the firstborn. However, as I say "A lot of people want a lot of things. I wanted a pony as a kid."

Confucius say: "Caveat Emptor." 'Nuff said.

Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?

So you would be comfortable keeping the money even though you now know beyond a doubt that a card you sold was altered, and even though (according to the hypothetical) you're a dealer selling to a collector? Not sure I would be.

I've mentioned this before, the stamp and coin guy I've been going to for more than 30 years took back a coin he'd sold several years before that had just been rejected as altered. (never slabbed, the original sale was possibly before slabbing existed, it failed on its first trip to TPG.)
The coin was obviously altered, and he'd somehow missed that years earlier. I got to inspect it firsthand with a detailed explanation of why it was no good and what to look for.

That's the model I've always tried to use in any of my dealings.
At the bike shop we had I think a 30 or 90 day warranty on any work done. Problems usually come up right away, so either is usually way longer than needed.
I did a job as a warranty repair at a bit over 2 years. It was obvious the bike hadn't been ridden, and that I'd blown it that day. My exact comment was "What the heck was I thinking when I did that? Anyway, I'll fix it for free. "

In the end, I got far more business from people he referred than the repair cost.

So yes, if I sold a graded card, and it turned out to be proven to be altered, I would take it back. Probably even after a crackout and regrade if I was sure it was the same card.

Ethically I would say that one does not have to accept the return if its based on the TPG's guarantee (that's my preliminary legal conclusion too-- without having researched it etc.)

But I would under most circumstances accept the return as a best practice -- not because I had to or even out of an ethical compulsion. It just seems right to me.

But I'm not envisioning a scenario with a huge amount of money at stake which might force me (or anyone else) to be reticent simply because I could not afford to reimburse on the spot without missing a mortgage payment or something.

Legally, why can't the buyer rescind based on the doctrine of mutual mistake?

I couldn't disagree with this more. The seller is entirely responsible for the product he sells. That product is the card, not some third party's opinion. Even in a perfect world, where the grading companies had a shred of competence or ethics, it is the seller's responsibility to warrant the product he sells. If an item proves to be misrepresented, the seller should refund, no questions asked. In the graded card scenario, he would likely have some recourse against the grading company.

I'd evaluate on each individual case, but would certainly lean to making it right with the buyer.

Seems like a convenient dodge for a number of expert collectors / dealers who disparage TPGs; all of a sudden hiding behind the TPG guarantee. Pathetic and disgusting. This behavior is why TPGs got a foothold in the first place.

There have been examples of what folks are calling obvious alterations when the card is exposed - where the hell were the expert dealers when the card was sold? Cashing the check, that's where.

I think both Ed and John, almost simultaneously, both state the case very well.

About that "TPG Dodge" What do you think Peter?
 

Peter - as to "mutual mistake," it's not my area of the law.
So I'll defer -- happily. ....that's why I wrote preliminary without having researched ...etc... My bad.
....
----
By the way does the "TPG dodge" you describe ultimately mean that to have warranty relief the card has to go back to the person who was the original seller (presumably whomever submitted the card to the TPG) who could properly bring it to the TPG for the warranty ...
BUT then the TPG could assert that this person violated the submission terms by acting in bad faith and knowingly submitted a doctored card. So the TPG could then avoid its obligations under the warranty altogether. Pretty crafty.

(sorry if this is clumsy but it's Saturday)

No way

i don't think you can look at the ethical responsibilities of the seller on a standalone basis. there are ethical considerations for the buyer too. the buyer should be taking reasonable steps to do their own due diligence and understand the risks of relying on a third party service if that factor weighed heavily in a purchase. it is not the sellers ethical obligation to inform the buyer of these risks in these instances in my view.

time passage is also an important factor. there is a big difference between a transaction between rescinded the same day versus after an extended period of time. in the latter case, the seller will not know if the purchase was made as a resale opportunity that did not work out. aside from that, there are valid reasons refunds have a time limitation across all businesses.

with all of that said, the people i interact with most in the hobby try to do the "right" thing for the buyer and seller where "right" has little to do with legal obligation.

Leaving aside the Sloan letter, I think the guarantee applies broadly to any purchaser of the card in the current holder. I don't think there is any obligation to go back to the seller to invoke the guarantee.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth -So why is Steve Sloan telling people with altered cards to contact the seller and only to contact PSA if the seller is "unknown"? I guess he would disagree with you?[
QUOTE=griffon512;1898627]Steve Sloan is making a business decision. You're asking an ethical question. How often do the two overlap?[/QUOTE]

This is simple, in my eyes and I've explained it before. Yes, 100% a business decision and they know they will be most likely be paying out a lot in the future. They are tying to minimize that amount now. They know the majority of these cards were sold by one particular entity which appears to possibly be involved in the fraudulent activities. PSA does NOT have to refund to the original submitter in certain situations as was noted in one of the other 50 threads on this issue. Send the cards back to the seller then they don't have to refund them if they send back to PSA. Love them, hate them....whatever, but it is the smartest way to limit their economic exposure.

This is simple, in my eyes and I've explained it before. Yes, 100% a business decision and they know they will be most likely be paying out a lot in the future. They are tying to minimize that amount now. They know the majority of these cards were sold by one particular entity which appears to possibly be involved in the fraudulent activities. PSA does NOT have to refund to the original submitter in certain situations as was noted in one of the other 50 threads on this issue. Send the cards back to the seller then they don't have to refund them if they send back to PSA. Love them, hate them....whatever, but it is the smartest way to limit their economic exposure.[/QUOTE]

This argument has proven to me that as much as this industry has evolved and grown over the years its still filled with the same fraud and manipulation it has always had...nothing is going to change.....it’s still the same old same....
PSA is a brilliant business model...

So I'm the seller and I've learned my TPG 3 was trimmed. I bought it last year for $100. I can either go to the TPG to get reimbursed for the $100 or.... "sell" it (wink wink) to a friend for $500 and have my friend go get reimbursed for $500.

When the smoke all clears We will hear the same thing from fellow collectors and dealer a like Buyer Beware Be Careful Who You Buy From

If the past is any indication of the future this is what most likely will happen...
That’s it, end of the story. No one will take accountability, responsibility, liability, or be held criminally Responsible......

The beat continues to go on. The Crowds at the Nationals will be larger then ever and will happily be giving their money and cards to PSA and PWCC

Why are we spinning our wheels here we all know what the outcome will be.......it’s sad

You should ask PWCC, PSA or Gary Moser if we are spinning our wheels? My guess is, they don't think so.

As to the question, I think the TPG bears the brunt because they are taking your money and supposedly giving you good information and a sellable product. That said, I have always tried to make the buyer of my cards whole or good. I have taken back a card after 2 yrs before because the collector didn't realize it was someone else on the card.

No it gets reimbursed according to the guarantee for current market value not purchase price.

How do they determine current market value? Do they include all the doctored cards which have inflated the price? Do they include all the shilled cards? Or do they just come up with their own market value?

should ask PWCC, PSA or Gary Moser if we are spinning our wheels? My guess is, they don't think so.

Leon unfortunately I think GM Pwcc And PSA is laughing.....just stay hush hush the suckers will get over this...just keep quiet it will pass....no shortage of arrogance with above crew

Unfortunately even with all the stuff going on I agree. I am pretty sure if those and the other scum get by with it a whole new set of scammers will come out of the wood work. Heck why not, a ton of reward with little to no risk. The best part is the people you scam are also the ones sticking up for you.:)

They must have been really disappointed to learn there were two guys named Wagner playing at the same time.....:D

The Sloan letter isn’t the greatest PR move, but is exactly what I would recommend. PSA has probably already made the decision that they won’t be writing any checks to PCWW or any other customers that submitted a large number of tainted cards. It only makes sense to make PCWW write as many checks to cover claims first. PSA is also buying time to see how big the potential liability is when the dust settles.

Again- Looking out only for themselves and their own profits. Nothing they do is in the true interest of the collector.

Perhaps Ben stated it best...

"The best part is the people you scam are also the ones sticking up for you".

If alive today, PT Barnum would be quite proud.

There is no doubt PT today would have started a grading service.

They are a publicly traded company. Every decision they make will put the best interests of the shareholders first. If this scandal is as big as many suspect, writing the a check for every bad card could either bankrupt the company or turn it into a penny stock.

Not only is the seller in most cases not vouching for the TPG, in most cases they expressly disavow any expertise, reliance, etc. Obviously I'm talking big sellers and not just some dude at a show.

Fully understood... But as a collector, I personally would not be investing heavily in an entity that puts its customer so far behind its shareholder.

Referring back to Ben's quote, I only hope people consider this mindset as they decide where to put their money, moving forward. If PSA is that incompetent at what they purportedly do, perhaps bankruptcy is the best outcome. Right now, the self-appointed "experts" possess all of the power. The balance of power needs to shift significantly, from corporation to collector.

Because without us, there is no hobby, and no PSA. Yet the hypnosis continues. What a scam :(

People are still buying cards now, the market didnt just die. Obviously if there arguments over market value there can be lawsuits and experts brought in if all the time money and attorney fees are worth it to do it that way..

thus far there seems to be agreements as to market price because no lawsuits filed

Many of those defrauded are not even aware of it yet. Unless you're on BO or net54, you probably aren't aware of the scandal's massive scale. Assuming it ever hits the more mainstream media, there WILL be lawsuits.

These things don't happen overnight.... Give it some time, for gosh sake!

i was just answering the question about how the heck could anyone agree on a market price now.

I do think many that buy 5k cards and over have a friend or two that may know the larger picture even if they dont. So yeah some guy that bought a 200 dollar card may not know about it for 10 years but the 1952 Topps Rutherford that sold for 12k or whatever...no way he doesnt know that . Card community is pretty small, the PSA set registry community even smaller, people that buy 10k+ cards even smaller than that.

does everyone know..of course not, but enough time has elapsed that for 5k or more cards if PSA had said we not paying anyone, a lawsuit would of been filed by now. Its obvious, that enough people are being satisfied by now on this first wave that a market price agreement has been agreed too for now..

This is what’s going to happen......... a whole lot of nothing burger

Just has Tom Hanks Said there is no crying in baseball
There is no ethics in the sports card industry

I think there will be something burger...

Not sure what, and not expecting "In & Out" or "Shake Shack" quality. Perhaps more like White Castle... but something positive has to emerge from this mess.

To me it all has to come down to the grading company PSA....they’re supposed to be the authority.....what good is their services if they can’t stop this.....
If people lose their faith in PSA our Industry will be DONE. This is why I believe nothing will happen except business as usual for PSA meaning no reason why this happened no paying back no addressing it publicly period. To many people have millions of dollars tied up in this industry they don’t want it to fall I don’t want it to fail.

Does PSA have a good excuse or Reason why this happened?
The more they deny and keep hush the worse it’s gonna be for PSA in the long run......

I still think Nothing is Going to a Change .....I feel like at PSA, they’re saying, or at least telling their share holders stay calm keep hush....there are too many suckers whom are addicted to our registry and grading brand.... we are making Everyone Tons of Money on our Brand/slabbed cards/they need us... The dealers, Auction Houses, Collectors, Flippers are profiting......they need us more then we need them....they won’t bite the hand that feeds them.
Keep Quiet we will get through this....our brand is strong.

I think something will happen, and I predict PSA will acknowledge that they have a responsibility to fix this. Where the problem may lie is PSA might feel it only needs a few tweaks to make it all right again. So their admission might fall quite a bit short.

But this is too massive for them to pretend nothing happened. Maybe they'll offer all aggrieved parties a Domino's pizza with two free toppings. Would that work for everybody?

Agree with all the above, except for the part highlighted in bold italics...

I do not think the hobby is anywhere near "done" if PSA were to go down. It was a great hobby before PSA ever existed, and it could continue to be. Very quickly, something else would come along to inevitably replace them. If there are to be any "learnings" from this scandal, then the new entity will be something improved and enhanced.

The vast majority of cards in PSA Holders wouldn't be deemed bad. Some current 8s, 9s and 10s would lose some value, and deservedly so. The grading game is very close to a monopoly right now, and perhaps a new player or two would be a good thing for the majority of collectors.

That said... you're probably right. Big money and corrupt influences will dictate that nothing changes.

If the card is raw and there's an issue, then yes, a refund by the seller would be in order.

If the card is graded then it should be on the TPG to take care of business.

IMO, most collectors will bid based on the grade and the fact that the TPG has opined the card has not been altered. That said, the bidder better understand the differences between a reputable and fly by night TPG.

It's pretty sad to see this hobby being "de-graded" as rapidly as it has in the past few years.

There's always SGC, or is it now S_C?

Peter, Could PSA not honoring it's guarantee and passing the buck to sellers be taken as false advertising?

Where are they "advertising" the guarantee? I forget where it is now. I only know where SGC's used to be.

A link at the bottom of this page
https://www.psacard.com/services/tradingcardgrading

Takes you here
https://www.psacard.com/about/financialguarantee/

I think I see where you're going, it's more just there than advertised, so maybe the answer would be no.

It doesn't seem to me like the type of case a government agency would ever pursue at least not in isolation. I guess a statement on a website might fall within a definition of advertising since it's promoting a service, but still...

I wasn't thinking government agency, but the point seems the same, that the idea is pretty weak.

^Reason I do prototyping and wrenching and not law. :o

I got close once though. In drafting school there was an ad on the bulletin board for a law school. I figured it would be nice to be a patent lawyer who could do his own drawings, which were a specialty at the time.

I called and they seemed annoyed that I didn't have at least a bachelors degree in something yet, and even more so when I pointed out that they were advertising in a 2 year state technical school that didn't even offer bachelors degrees.