This is the part that kind of blows me away. PWCC does NOT have the monopoly on being a great seller. There are a TON of great sellers out there. I consider myself a great seller. That being said, like you stated, I am amazed they they get such a premium for their 1968 Roberto Clemente PSA 4 (to pick a random card). They bring even higher prices than the BIN's out there!

But you're trying to rationalize it. You can't. I'm the same way with grading. For the life of me, I don't understand why someone cares about what someone else thinks about their card. It blows my mind. What makes someone submit a card to be graded? Are they really that ignorant of hobby standards that they can't look at a card and judge the condition for themselves that they need a 3rd party to do it for them? Do these same people seek advice about other things too? Do these same people need reassurance to tell them how pretty their wife is? How fine their home is? How nice their car is? If not, then why do they need someone to tell them the condition of their card? There's absolutely no difference in a buyer putting value in a PWCC sticker than there is some collector putting value in what some TPG says. Again, I'm with you, Peter. It doesn't make sense to me either. But rather than trying to make sense of it, I just go with it. Who am I to tell someone else what to collect, how to collect or what to spend?

What constitutes what makes one "a great seller" these days...is it high ethical/moral standards? If so I'd consider myself a great seller...albeit a tiny, insignificant one at that.

More and more I think it's the offering of high quality material. And PWCC definitely consistently offers that! They offer big auction house quality items routinely...and that seems to trump everything these days.

And to address Davids' comments...this is the world we are living in now...social media...many people want/desire constant attention!

Have you not seen the price differential between a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan in a PSA 8, PSA 9 and PSA 10?

Seems like it would be pretty easy to understand why people spend the money to get a card graded. This isn't rocket science.

I'm not sure but I suspect people send cards in for grading because the grading of the card increases the value exponentially. I don't believe submitters need reassurance, I think they need the card in a slab to maximize its resale value.

Fine, but can't the same thing be said about the silly PWCC sticker? So why the pointless thread?

I like many have taken a card I paid $2 for and invested $6 more and made it a $650 card.

If someone passed the first grade and can count it is pretty easy to figure out.

I have sent many cards in and then received the news they were altered. Alterations which I didn't catch. I remember a 1914 Boston Garter Speaker? that I bought and sent it into SGC. It came back altered; it had a slight touch up to it and I got a full refund. That particular authentication saved me 5 digits, probably. Oh, grading the cards increases their value too.
At the Texas Card Show I gave SGC a few things to grade. As the show went on I made multiple trips back to give them cards to add to the ones already submitted. I didn't do that to lose money. :)

This situation reminds me when Vince McMahon decided to take the wrestling business in a new direction. He had tons of haters and hurt a lot of feelings but in the end his new ideas made a lot of people a lot of money.

I think it is great that someone is trying to shake things up in the card world.

If you read the comments on Facebook when cards are posted by PSA or Sports Collectors Daily loads of them think all cards are worthless and the hobby is totally dead.

Those that follow it obviously know that isn't true.

Go crack out that same PSA 10 Jordan RC and try to sell it raw. Do you think it would sell for near the price it would as if it were still graded a 10? No way! Same card, nothing changed with the card itself. Now go have the card re-graded, but let's say it comes back a 9 this time. Does it have more value than it did when it was raw? Sure. Does it have the same value it did when it was a 10? No. Once again, same card, nothing's changed. So where is the value? Is it in the card or in the slab/flip? This isn't rocket science.

The only difference is it now has someone else's opinion assigned to it. So did grading the card add value to it, or did it add perceived value to it? If the card changes value based on the flip, then it's only perceived value. There's a difference. As someone in the financial industry, you do understand that, right? This is a hobby where many are building their collections strictly on perceived value. What happens to perceived value over time? I think even a first grader can figure that one out. ;)

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

But isn't your raw collection based on your own perceived value of it?

Dude you are out to pasture on this topic. Your disgust for the third party graders has clouded your judgment to a level that can't saved.

It doesn't matter if the card would sell for the same raw after being cracked out. No one is cracking out that card.

You are like the short seller that has been betting against Amazon since it was $200 saying the valuation is unsustainable.

None of us make the rules. The market does and the market has spoken and prices cards based on a grade that is plastered on top of a plastic holder. The Jordan in a PSA 10 has gone from $6,500 in 2009 to in some cases $30,000 today. The Jeter 1993 SP has gone from $6,500 to nearly a $100,000. It is what it is.

Trying to make some philosophical argument as to why people are stupid for wanting someone else to appraise the condition fully knowing that the capital investment can have exponential returns is laughable.

Thanks for the entertainment.

Of course it is.

I have five 1986 Panini Italian Mike Tyson PSA 9's that I self subbed and have less than $150 in each. Today they sell for over a grand. I will take my perceived value all day long vs. the alternative.

You're head is buried so far up PSA's butt that it's putting pressure on your brain and you can't think straight. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone cares about graded cards. There are many people on this board that crack out graded cards to enjoy raw in their personal collection. :eek: Yes, its true no matter how much you want to believe it or not. You're just a puppet of the grading industry. Time to cut the strings, dude.

I'll share a PM I received a few days ago. To protect the user's identity, I'll block out their personal information. In the PM, the buyer asked me to crack out a graded card before mailing it to them. I know that's hard for you to wrap your head around, but a lot of people don't care for graded cards.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation with someone who collects wrestling cards that probably doesn't even have 10 years in this hobby but wants to explain it all to me. No, that's entertainment.

Actually I have 35 years in the hobby.

What I collect is irrelevant. My wrestling cards have probably on a percentage basis been the best pick during that ten year time frame you mention of anything. Everyone laughed and here we sit ten years later and the top cards from my sets continue to set record highs.

As for being a puppet. I have been called worse things. Either way the route I have chosen to take has paid off in spades.

You on the other hand call people stupid for attempting to increase the value of their cards and actually doing it. Think about that.

David, a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder doesn't exactly inspire the financial need to keep it in a slab as opposed to a Boston Garter as Leon mentioned. I'm not a fan of PSA but I recognize the value it adds to high end cards (and even some not so high end). At the end of the day I'm a fan of more money compared to less money. Who isn't?

The Congresswoman to your north (assuming you are at work), apparently. Oops, political comment.

This card raw is worth less than this card graded. Whether we like it or not, the PSA holder adds value to my card. And by leaving it in the slab I am protecting its value. It may suck that this is the reality of the hobby but it is what it is. Is it worth cracking out, losing half its value, due to a personal agenda? I'd literally be lighting money on fire if I cracked the card out and left it out.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4896/4...4bdb34b6_c.jpg

She's for more money as long as its mine she's taking.

Jeff, it wasn't a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder, but I'll play along with you. Even if it were, why would one grade a 1968 Yaz in Ex condition? I don't have the answer, but it happens all the time. You say grading adds value, so where is the added value in this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-...kAAOSwpvRcgYu9

Couldn't I buy the same card raw in the same condition for about the same price? I know you just used a random card as an example, but I see this quite often on eBay where someone had a card graded that really didn't add any value at all and, in some cases, it actually decreases the value by having it graded.

Of course I'm a fan of more money. But my point is that it's only perceived value to the collector. If one is buying raw cards to have graded and re-selling them for several times what they paid, then great for them. I really think that's awesome! My comments are really for the collectors (or investors) putting a lot of faith in perceived value.

LOL at Peter's last comment. :D

Show me where I called anyone stupid? Now you're just making things up...kind of like wrestling is made up. Ooops, I hope I didn't spoil that for you. :rolleyes:

Sometimes people slab cards worth less than the slabbing process just to protect the card or provide uniformity in their collection.

And slabbed cards are a legit market unto itself at this point. My Plow's Cobb above could not be purchased for the same price if it was raw. No chance. Can it go up in value? Sure. Can it go down? Sure. But all things being equal, the card will always be worth more in that PSA slab than out of it. There's no debate here on that issue.

Actually I have 66 years in the hobby.

I had the pleasure of watching "The Great Malenko" live as a teenager in the Tampa Bay area. You probably don't even know who this is?

Attachment 351623

And you think your credentials are impeckable. :D

I would classify these comments as calling someone stupid.



But you're trying to rationalize it. You can't. I'm the same way with grading. For the life of me, I don't understand why someone cares about what someone else thinks about their card. It blows my mind. What makes someone submit a card to be graded? Are they really that ignorant of hobby standards that they can't look at a card and judge the condition for themselves that they need a 3rd party to do it for them? Do these same people seek advice about other things too? Do these same people need reassurance to tell them how pretty their wife is? How fine their home is? How nice their car is? If not, then why do they need someone to tell them the condition of their card?

Nice to see The Dean Gordon Solie make an appearance!

I am from Orlando and grew up watching Championship Wrestling from Florida.

I didn't use the word stupid. I did say ignorant, but ignorant is a lack of knowledge. It was appropriate to my example (someone unfamiliar with hobby standards). Stupid is a lack of intelligence. I didn't say or infer that.

Nice try though.

Some people are perfectly happy with the eye appeal of a 7, with a slight wrinkle. Since the advent of Ebay, the only way to try to get a handle on unseen defects is through grading. If you dont care, then there are plenty of reputable raw card dealers on Ebay. Sometimes they even get higher than the graded prices, and, although it could be my naivety, I can only assume it's on speculation the card "could grade higher"

Call me a conspiracist, but other than a few deep pockets who don't care about resale value, I have a hard time thinking people pay more money for the opinion of some "kid in Oswego".

Blowout proved a sinple search can reveal many of these cards are trimmed and resold through the same company. This means not only people BUYING the card did not research the last sales, but people LISTING the card didn't even check their own price history. I mean heck, some of these are numbered!


Seems a little hard to swallow, and I do believe there are very few "coincidences"

Um okay. Some nice synonyms associated with it.

Go play with your wrestling cards and let the grownups talk baseball cards :rolleyes:

If it works for PWWC, maybe it will work for me. I have also implemented the sticker system.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/DLAAA...fMX/s-l800.jpg
If they start stickering cards that are worst for the grade, here is a candidate.

Message to all
 

Hey guys,

It is understood that the majority of the contributors to
this board do have superior knowledge in grading than
your typical collector. Top collectors and dealers for the
most part, CAN certainly identify what looks high end for
the given grade. These people do not need a sticker
or person to direct their thought processes.

Think about this however: What about the vast majority
of collectors who do not deal with grading every single
day? Could they not benefit from some assistance with this
concept? If you can rattle off the centering parameters
for an entire company’s grading scale, then the stickers
are probably not for you. Some people do need some
guidance however. If you have an eagle eye, it does not
mean everybody else does. “Joe Collector” out there might
not even know what grading standards mean in the first
place. Just remember that some of us happen to be blessed
with a skill set that not everybody is fortunate enough to
master. There are people out there who can benefit from
some consultation regardless of whether or not an auction
house is profiting from it. Other stickers are coming. It’s
not just about PWCC.

Could more stickers ultimately dilute the PWCC product?
Possibly, but this could very well be a universally accepted
standard 10 years from now. Coin grading is on a 70 point
scale (30 are used) and it is an accepted practice to grade
them A, B, and C quality within a grade. That is 90 grades if
I’m not mistaken. CAC stickers are a real thing. Price guides
have a separate column for slabbed coins that are stickered.
Coins also have numerous positive qualifiers: FS, FB, CAM,
DCAM, FBL... the list is enormous. Why this is not used on
cards sets like 89 Upper Deck for “Full Hologram” is beyond
knowledge I am privy to. Nonetheless, given the evolutionary
climate of the hobby in conjunction with a moderate amount
of extrapolation, I can assume we will see it some day.


I make the coin grading comparison because it pre-dates the
entire card hobby and has a much bigger overall market.
Stickers have been an accepted concept in coins for years
along with others that we seem on the cusp of. Observing the
evolution of coin grading seems to be the crystal ball for cards.
Most card graders use 19 or 20 grades in there scale
and that is a relatively recent scope. Not too long ago, it was a
10 point scale, right? Considering how every cards is unique,
those are still pretty small numbers. If coins have a 30 point
scale which is then separated into 3 categories of quality, I
see card grading dissected much further in years to come.


Oh and I know everybody loves to bash Brent, but the guy
seems highly intelligent and creative. Going after him for
every little thing reminds me of the steroids in baseball
controversy...the guys who play the best receive the most
criticism. If PWCC wasn’t a literal powerhouse, all this would
be non-topic. I personally love seeing all the new ideas not
only thought of, but actually put in motion. A new concept
can’t be accepted until someone introduces it to the world
first. The auction house residing only on eBay, the stickers,
the vault which can directly turn your auction winnings into
managed commodities/futures. Oh and you can borrow cash
against your equity. Who else is doing that on a large scale?
It’s all genius stuff. I believe we will look back and say the
guy was a hobby pioneer...Brent, game recognize game. Real talk.

But by putting a sticker on the card they are grading it! Using their own little system....

Buwahahahaahahahahahaha
This had me dying

VintageToppsguy,

First of all, you have no right to poke fun at what other people collect. Wrestling cards are great and some of them sell for quite a bit of money. They have a great future.

Secondly, your comments just remind me of all the guys who laughed at me when I showed them my Pele rookies. Why don't you go on Heritage auctions right now and look at the past sales prices. They are selling for a sh*tload.

And finally, yeah, wrestling is made up, but when a 280 pounder slams you head first, and you feel like you're going to die - THAT is real pain, buddy.

Have a nice day

Just saw this on Twitter.

Thought you might like it.

Gordon’s wrestling interviews were an art form that attempted to legitimize entertainment that pretended to be a real “sport”.

If you knew the script, betting on wrestling was not only a body slam, but a slam dunk as well.:eek:

This clowns posts are comical.

There are only two cards from the 80's in a Mint grade that sell for more than this card. Both are Michael Jordan cards.

He can make fun of me all he wants. I find it very entertaining.

i'd like to own an andre rookie!

Slightly different genre I guess as this is Olympic wrestling, but this card -- not expensive though hard to find -- is a favorite of mine.

Commie

Arguably the most dominant athlete ever. He had some absurd unbeaten streak until he lost to Rulon Gardner in a controversial Olympic final. A decade or more, I think it was. A fascinating man too, despite what you might assume from his looks he was an avid chess player and a student of the arts and literature. Eventually won elected office.

Pinko

Tough crowd, Jesus.

That card is very rare and especially in a mint grade. This guy was a beast of a man.

There are two other great cards in set. Randy Couture and Kurt Angle.

I bet if an Angle 9 surfaced it would go deep in the hundreds.

It is a great card in any grade. Andre was one of a kind and worthy of honor on a trading card.

I believe Rulon Gardner is in that set too. Notable if only for doing the impossible, defeating Karelin.

I remember that match like it was yesterday. Similar feeling to the Douglas/Tyson fight.

He is.

I had to sit through a motivational speech this guy gave and it was the worst 45 minutes at a conference I have ever had to endure.