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-   -   1936 Joltin' Joe (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=267320)

pokerplyr80 03-26-2019 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 1865431)
Indeed. Insert picture of horse blinders here.

Makes me wonder if grading has more of an impact on protecting the consumer or making card doctors tons of cash. It would restore my faith a bit if Heritage would pull the card and SGC took it out of the holder but I will not hold my breath on either issue.
Pretty sure if Heritage pulls the card it would go back to the consignor. It would be up to him if he wanted to try to work something out with SGC to put the card in an altered holder or leave it as is. Although I suppose they could pull the cert # from their database if he refused to cooperate.

ullmandds 03-27-2019 04:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram99 (Post 1865466)
As a collector with a lot of cards, graded and ungraded, bought over many years from many shows, dealers, and auctions, this is really discouraging every time I see another one of these.

One aspect that is particularly discouraging is that no one on this board is surprised in the least. We congratulate the original poster for his great finding, and we move on and buy our next NM, NM-MT, or MT card that TPG's have certified as legitimate examples of an unaltered mint or nearly mint card.

For those looking for unique or hard to find cards and who do not have a long-term relationship with a reputable dealer, we are left with the options of a.) stopping collecting,
b.) buying lower grade or raw examples, or
c.) continuing to buy "certified" cards which we know are more and more likely to have been doctored for profit by a card tailor (alteration expert).

At some point if enough of this happens, there will be a tipping point. The collections we have spent good money on are sure to see a valuation impact. The valuation of this type of high-condition card is based on a combination of demand and scarcity.

If the scarcity can be addressed just by slicing off 1/16th of an inch on a border, how is that much different than just having another copy printed/made? Both outcomes reduce scarcity/increase supply, which in turn should reduce value in a market that is so sensitive to relative scarcity of high-condition examples.

Sorry for the rambling but this is really discouraging.

Q: Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
A: I've been to the card tailor.
YUP!!! While the tpg’ers continue to “print money” with their grading practices...and many AH’s continue to push these cards along...in many instances shilling all the way...as long as their wallets keep getting filled...combined with many involved in the hobby not really caring...and as repeated instances of wrongdoing go unpunished...ultimately the collectors will pay a price...its just a matter of time.

hanes1111 03-27-2019 06:32 AM
Where there is money there will always be corruption . Just the way it works unfortunately. This has been going on for so long and the blind eyes will remain as long as their is no accountability. Ive moved to collecting more antique memorabilia and antiques in general because of this. The new stuff is just as bad....used to be game worn/game used with pictures of the jersey or bat on the card and the companies would guarantee it, now its worded so vague and the sticker autograph and redemption crap is such a reach. I love cards but have lost all faith in the industry. Grading has become just another angle to scam more people. Only way to stop it or curb it is have an unbiased machine or program do the grading so all you tech guys get on it!

chalupacollects 03-27-2019 06:32 AM
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...

ullmandds 03-27-2019 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupacollects (Post 1865508)
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...
Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.

ctownboy 03-27-2019 07:46 AM
I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David

darwinbulldog 03-27-2019 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1865510)
Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.
Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.

hanes1111 03-27-2019 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog (Post 1865519)
Well, I don't think anyone's expecting that to be the immediate consequence, but whenever it becomes clear that the robot graders are better than their human counterparts, the PSA and SGC slabs will start looking a lot more like GAI slabs. Or there will be a merger, and one of those companies will lay off all its graders.
This ^^^^^^

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctownboy (Post 1865517)
I would love to see the authorities get involved and tell Heritage to pull the card from the auction. But instead of sending it back to the owner, they tell Heritage to hold it for them so they can book it as evidence. Then they can go back and find who the owner was who doctored or who had the card doctored. Then maybe some people will be going to jail for this.

My wishful thought for the day....

David
One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.

Leon 03-27-2019 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865545)
One wishes, but the most likely outcome is this one card gets pulled, there are no consequences, and everyone goes back to doing what they were.
Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. :( The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1865546)
Just like with the Desmond debacle. I lost most of my interest in helping to fight fraud after that "non-issue" of authorities not helping. It seems most authorities don't care, quite honestly. Or if they do care their prosecutors don't. :( The whole grading hobby is sort of predicated on a trimmed card in an 8 holder. Kind of says a lot....
I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.

WWG 03-27-2019 10:43 AM
Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.

oldjudge 03-27-2019 11:00 AM
Nice job by Heritage!

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 1865563)
Nice job by Heritage!
And by Rennie.

oldjudge 03-27-2019 11:09 AM
It would be nice if SGC would comment

petecld 03-27-2019 11:21 AM
DiMaggio Card
 
We (Heritage) discussed this with the consignor and will have the card reviewed by SGC. As has been mentioned, until then, the card has been removed from the auction.

Peter

Lorewalker 03-27-2019 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865548)
I had a memorable conversation with one such authority about card doctoring and that very point about the Wagner was made.
I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.

darwinbulldog 03-27-2019 11:34 AM
I'm curious. What does it mean to say that SGC is going to review it at this point?

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 1865575)
I can see how that would discourage law enforcement from going further however it is a shame that it is not the practice of the auction houses and grading companies to reveal the names of the people who are associated with the buying, grading and consigning of cards like this. I understand why they can't but if no arrests can be made and absent transparency, this is just going to continue.

Auction houses and grading companies keep secret the identity of the guilty parties a secret. I guess as long as they get their cut they do not really care. Pretty sad.
You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.

oldjudge 03-27-2019 11:58 AM
Good job Pete. How about talking to Brian and seeing if the guy who won the card in REA is your consignor.

Lorewalker 03-27-2019 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865578)
You got it my friend. We have no idea who submits the cards, or consigns them, or buys them. And nobody will say anything. All in the dark. Perfect world for card doctors.

And let's be honest, I doubt there is anything in the auction houses' contracts with consignors nor their terms for buyers, that preclude them from disclosing names. They simply have not made it a practice because it is their goodwill, which makes sense but in cases like this Joe D card, where fraud is being committed, why not put the names out there? Cannot see how that would expose them to litigation but I do see how they might lose those those people as buyers or consignors. If all houses did this these losers would have no place to hide but the houses are guilty of being greedy and someone buying a bad card is not their problem. Seems it should be their problem because they are representing the card and taking a piece of the sale. Until it is illegal to sell an altered card I guess they are not responsible.

Funny that houses have no problem threatening to out someone who does not pay THEM but not when fraud is being perpetrated on someone other than THEM.

Same is true for the grading companies who are allegedly here to protect the consumer. So why keep secret the guys whose names have to be continuing to come up as being associated with doctored cards? Faux protection. It is unreal.

I suppose if the practice became to disclose identities, John Doe would be the consignor, original buyer and submitter.

Stampsfan 03-27-2019 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 1865378)
The hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another.
Yeah it's too bad more competitive businesses cannot work together. Wish the oil companies with retail stations could work together so there is less competition at the gas pumps.

Wait a minute...


Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyW (Post 1865400)
Why would you trim a great card?
Why would you grade a trimmed card?

Exhibitman 03-27-2019 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog (Post 1865577)
I'm curious. What does it mean to say that SGC is going to review it at this point?
It means they are huddled with their lawyers and insurers trying to see how badly they are going to get financially savaged for this, assuming the card doctor and the current owner are not the same person.

shagrotn77 03-27-2019 01:47 PM
It's disgusting to me that some dirtbag would desecrate such an iconic card. Thank you, Rennie, for bringing this to light. At the end of the day, the only people who are looking out for collectors are fellow collectors.

Aquarian Sports Cards 03-27-2019 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupacollects (Post 1865508)
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...
There's a play by David Mamet called The Water Engine. I recommend it highly.

Rhotchkiss 03-27-2019 02:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by petecld (Post 1865573)
We (Heritage) discussed this with the consignor and will have the card reviewed by SGC. As has been mentioned, until then, the card has been removed from the auction.

Peter
Class move by Heritage. Well done. It’s a shame, but this is 100% the right thing to do and I commend Heritage for taking quick and honorable action.

JollyElm 03-27-2019 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupacollects (Post 1865508)
Hopefully, those engineers out west who are patenting that digital grading system get their act together quickly and come out as a new more foolproof TPG...would eliminate the crack and resubmit issue...and force the existing ones to clean up their act or disappear...
If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."

darwinbulldog 03-27-2019 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyElm (Post 1865626)
If that happens, "eye appeal" will turn into "cold electronic eye appeal."
It shouldn't be too hard to plug in human eye appeal ratings for a bunch of cards and have a computer extract the relevant variables (image contrast, color saturation, location of damage relative to location of the player's face, etc.) so that it can judge eye appeal well enough to pass a Net54 Turing test. Could even use fMRI data if we want to get really fancy, but I think a simple 1-10 scale from the humans would be sufficient.

chalupacollects 03-27-2019 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1865510)
Sure...and good luck getting the millions of cards that have already been graded...REGRADED...at further expense...and at RISK of major devaluation.
Well once that automated system proves itself the legacy TPG's product will start to eventually look to be less desirable… Who would want a card graded 9 that could've possibly have been viewed as doctored versus once that can be shown to be 100% free of that stigma?

Leon 03-27-2019 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWG (Post 1865561)
Card has been withdrawn from HA Auction.
And you have been suspended for bad registration information until it is rectified. Why are all of these bad registration sleuths from FL.?

barrysloate 03-27-2019 03:24 PM
I find this whole situation extraordinary. The 36 DiMaggio is just one of many thousands of altered cards that are currently slabbed, yet every time a major auction concludes we see countless price records for high end cards shattered. At what point does the hobby say enough is enough? And when do TPG's start investing in better technology so they can start ferreting out these bad cards instead of holdering them?

I understand why collectors hold on to what they have. The common mantra is "I don't actually have any of these bad cards in my collection, it's only the other guy who has the altered ones. I checked mine out carefully and they're all good." That is the ostrich with his head in the sand that has been a fixture of this hobby for as long as I can remember. But why don't collectors finally stand up and say we aren't going to buy any more of this crap until the TPG's find a better way to do this. As I said, I really find this to be amazing. If somebody else can explain this, please do.

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate (Post 1865639)
I find this whole situation extraordinary. The 36 DiMaggio is just one of many thousands of altered cards that are currently slabbed, yet every time a major auction concludes we see countless price records for high end cards shattered. At what point does the hobby say enough is enough? And when do TPG's start investing in better technology so they can start ferreting out these bad cards instead of holdering them?

I understand why collectors hold on to what they have. The common mantra is "I don't actually have any of these bad cards in my collection, it's only the other guy who has the altered ones. I checked mine out carefully and they're all good." That is the ostrich with his head in the sand that has been a fixture of this hobby for as long as I can remember. But why don't collectors finally stand up and say we aren't going to buy any more of this crap until the TPG's find a better way to do this. As I said, I really find this to be amazing. If somebody else can explain this, please do.
Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.

Leon 03-27-2019 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865644)
Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.
My guess, and this is only a guess, is the OP is a criminal himself. And if he comes back with good registration information I will say I was wrong. No problemo. Actually, I hope I am wrong.

barrysloate 03-27-2019 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865644)
Stuff trumps all, Barry, you know that. These little one off fiascos will flare and die every so often and nothing will change. And the criminals know that.
I know Peter that it's all about the stuff, but that's too simple an answer. I'm happy to pay a dollar for a card that's worth a dollar, but I won't pay a dollar for a card that was worth twenty-five cents before the doctors got to it. There's a disconnect that doesn't make sense. Everybody wants to get a good value and not to get taken.

Throttlesteer 03-27-2019 04:27 PM
Better to buy low-->mid grade. They aren't exempt from this nonsense, but it's less likely.

Touch'EmAll 03-27-2019 04:35 PM
There may be a lot of doctored cards in slabs. But I bet there are a lot more cards that are genuine and, for the most part, accurately graded. Can you imagine the state of the hobby right now if companies like SGC and PSA didn't exist and all we had were raw copies. Talk about the card doctors going to town and having a heyday, whew! I have seen the advent of slabbed cards come into being. I got together with a few other collectors back in the early 1990's and sent in my first PSA submission. Dang, I thought, this is cool, a step toward getting it right and not getting shystered. So I dove back into the hobby with long term investment in mind. Glad I did. But looking back, I highly doubt I would have ever put decent money into this hobby if all we had was raw. Yeah, some will get through, like no duh. But imho it is sure better than the old days.

Lorewalker 03-27-2019 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100backstroke (Post 1865655)
There may be a lot of doctored cards in slabs. But I bet there are a lot more cards that are genuine and, for the most part, accurately graded. Can you imagine the state of the hobby right now if companies like SGC and PSA didn't exist and all we had were raw copies. Talk about the card doctors going to town and having a heyday, whew! I have seen the advent of slabbed cards come into being. I got together with a few other collectors back in the early 1990's and sent in my first PSA submission. Dang, I thought, this is cool, a step toward getting it right and not getting shystered. So I dove back into the hobby with long term investment in mind. Glad I did. But looking back, I highly doubt I would have ever put decent money into this hobby if all we had was raw. Yeah, some will get through, like no duh. But imho it is sure better than the old days.
I am guessing there are a lot more cards that have been messed with in slabs than we think. The slab gives a false sense of security so that we do not need to look for alterations. As buyers we can be less educated on how to spot those alterations and what to look for if we solely rely on what the grading companies tell us--the dumbing of the consumer. Once the card is slabbed it is harder to see alterations. So I am not sure that grading is benefiting end users as much as it was intending to.

How someone was able to cut up this Joe D card and get it past SGC does not sit right with me. If the work is getting THAT good it is a huge problem. Still curious how the OP figured it out. It is almost a needle in a haystack.

bigfish 03-27-2019 06:42 PM
Solid point
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 1865378)
the hobby could be improved if auction houses worked with one another. I wonder if the winner of the card in rea is the consignor to heritage. If so, and he or she is on the board, perhaps they could shed some light on what, if anything, happened to the card.

👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 1865680)
I am guessing there are a lot more cards that have been messed with in slabs than we think. The slab gives a false sense of security so that we do not need to look for alterations. As buyers we can be less educated on how to spot those alterations and what to look for if we solely rely on what the grading companies tell us--the dumbing of the consumer. Once the card is slabbed it is harder to see alterations. So I am not sure that grading is benefiting end users as much as it was intending to.

How someone was able to cut up this Joe D card and get it past SGC does not sit right with me. If the work is getting THAT good it is a huge problem. Still curious how the OP figured it out. It is almost a needle in a haystack.
OP obviously pays close attention to these cards, look at his name and avatar.

Forever Young 03-27-2019 07:28 PM
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240251

Is t this the same card the op wanTed to buy?

boneheadandrube 03-27-2019 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Young (Post 1865704)
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=240251

Is t this the same card the op wanTed to buy?
The card in that link appears to be the same as the card in the new 7 holder. The cert# on the 60 seems to be graded after this 84...? could the imperfections on the back be print anomalies on multiple Joe D's?

Bram99 03-27-2019 09:19 PM
Bizarre turn of events
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheadandrube (Post 1865709)
The card in that link appears to be the same as the card in the new 7 holder. The cert# on the 60 seems to be graded after this 84...? could the imperfections on the back be print anomalies on multiple Joe D's?
I like a good crime mystery but I am having difficulty understanding why the original poster would have been looking for this exact card back in 2017 and then almost a year later the same person finds that the card has been auctioned once since, then sliced up and re-graded. The fact that SGC missed the alteration is troubling. I don't know what to think about the rest of the story. We are part of a group of strange individuals.

Peter_Spaeth 03-27-2019 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram99 (Post 1865729)
I like a good crime mystery but I am having difficulty understanding why the original poster would have been looking for this exact card back in 2017 and then almost a year later the same person finds that the card has been auctioned once since, then sliced up and re-graded. The fact that SGC missed the alteration is troubling. I don't know what to think about the rest of the story. We are part of a group of strange individuals.
I think it was sliced up before it graded an 84, no?

Bram99 03-27-2019 09:32 PM
I don't know...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865732)
I think it was sliced up before it graded an 84, no?
I guess so. But why would this poster chase this card and post about it after the auctions...and why is Leon calling him a criminal? Weird story.

boneheadandrube 03-27-2019 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1865732)
I think it was sliced up before it graded an 84, no?
To clarify: The cert# on the 60 in the original post is later than the cert# on the 84 in that link from 2017, meaning the 60 was graded after the 84. The 84 looks like the same card as the newer 7 everyone thinks is trimmed. it could be that the old 84 was re-holdered into the newer style 7. This would mean that the 60 isn't the same card as the 7 = 60 not trimmed into a 7.

The backs of the 60 and the 7 look very similar though. Do some Joe D. backs from that set have the same printing imperfections from a crappy printing plate?

Leon 03-28-2019 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram99 (Post 1865734)
I guess so. But why would this poster chase this card and post about it after the auctions...and why is Leon calling him a criminal? Weird story.
I said my guess is he is a criminal, (fraud or troll.) I don't know for sure because he(or she) fraudulently registered on this forum. Some of this posters posts, as I read through them, reminded me of someone trolling. Maybe I am wrong but why would this poster email and say he is going to sue me (what does that make, about a thousand of those threats?) instead of giving good registration info?

.

timn1 03-28-2019 09:52 AM
Hi Leon, I'm confused
 
Are we talking about Renne, who has posted 92 times and been on the board for almost two years?

Tim

PS: I don't doubt what you're saying at all - just trying to keep up with this very strange story...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1865791)
I said my guess is he is a criminal, (fraud or troll.) I don't know for sure because he(or she) fraudulently registered on this forum. Some of this posters posts, as I read through them, reminded me of someone trolling. Maybe I am wrong but why would this poster email and say he is going to sue me (what does that make, about a thousand of those threats?) instead of giving good registration info?

.

Leon 03-28-2019 11:46 AM
Yes. Apparently you missed the fact that this exact same sort of thing happened recently with the T206 autograph forger thread. Manny (Setbuilder) is banned for bad registration info too, after 7 yrs and over 600 posts. It doesn't matter how long or how many posts someone has done, bad registration info always gets the boot. If it is corrected they are reinstated. Neither of these members wanted to give good contact info instead of staying banned...It is their call, not mine. I didn't have anything against either one, whomever they are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by timn1 (Post 1865836)
Are we talking about Renne, who has posted 92 times and been on the board for almost two years?

Tim

PS: I don't doubt what you're saying at all - just trying to keep up with this very strange story...

timn1 03-28-2019 07:34 PM
makes sense
 
I agree, bad registration info is definitely grounds for banning- thanks-

T


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1865868)
Yes. Apparently you missed the fact that this exact same sort of thing happened recently with the T206 autograph forger thread. Manny (Setbuilder) is banned for bad registration info too, after 7 yrs and over 600 posts. It doesn't matter how long or how many posts someone has done, bad registration info always gets the boot. If it is corrected they are reinstated. Neither of these members wanted to give good contact info instead of staying banned...It is their call, not mine. I didn't have anything against either one, whomever they are.

Leon 03-28-2019 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timn1 (Post 1866011)
I agree, bad registration info is definitely grounds for banning- thanks-

T
Hi Tim
I denote a bit of sarcasm, but maybe not. At any rate I don't feel someone should be a allowed to out a fraudster while being a fraudster. Somewhere it is called a clean hands doctrine. In this forum world you have to have clean hands to combat fraud yourself. No fraudsters allowed to detect other fraudsters. And if nothing else their registrations are fraudulent. I watch too much Judge Judy. :) Wouldn't it be something if one of these really was Nash? One of the biggest fraudsters the hobby has ever known fighting crime. Sweet....

,


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