On what planet is that top crease "Light" catastrophic is more like it.

Even if both creases were mere wrinkles, a buyer wants a refund, I grant one, but that's me. I have granted one partial refund already in an auction sale here without any drama.

Curious for opinions on if people were selling this card on the BST, would they point out that it's really one-third of a card so a buyer would know exactly what he's getting? Or would you just list it with a scan and a price, and nothing else?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...48#post1655548

regardless, if it sells and he doesn't give a refund when asked, I'd be all over him.

Once I saw that posted, I texted Steven and informed him that the card is not a T205, but 1/3rd of a T202 Triple Folder. He is still new to vintage, and didn't realize the card torn. That's the reason he priced it at $23 to start. He is moving very fast into vintage, and probably needs to slow down a bit and take a month or two to learn the ropes. Erratic exuberance, I would say.
Edit: I didn't expect it to still be listed. Steven should take it down or disclose it and reduce the price. And I expect he will. Maybe he'll throw it into the next trade he makes as a freebie. I have sold some T202 1/3rds before that were probably $5-6 for commons, and up to $75 for the Ty Cobb sliding center panel. So there is some value, just not the price he has it listed at.

Another vote here for that card not being a 3 and the OP should be refunded.

Enjoy it - this will be my only post
 

First off, I am quite impressed with the number of people who offer their opinion of a private transaction that happened between two members having heard one side of the story. I think 53 posts and 2000+ views is pretty amazing. What you will hear from me is what actually happened. You are aware of some of what has been said so far (at least by me, though not by Steven). I have every message Steven sent to me, as well - time stamped. None will be posted publicly simply because I don't think that is good etiquette or precedent for board members. However, I will paraphrase. Form your own opinions.

My name is Tim Begley - this is the rule, I believe, right? Post your full name. I'm not quite positive you have to when defending your reputation as opposed to attacking another's but I will since I have nothing to hide.

So here's some relevant information on me. First, I have no professional experience as a seller, dealer, auctioneer, graded or manufacturer of baseball cards. Occasionally, I make the hard choice to sell off some of my cards to buy more. As such, I have only two transactions on here (both sales) and one piece of bad behavior, which absolutely no one would even know about unless I mentioned it. However, since I'm honest, I'll start there. I snapped at a guy who inquired on a lot last night in a PM. I shouldn't have and I apologized. I was having a rough night and won't bore you with details. (And, if he's among the 2000+ reading, you know who you are and I truly am sorry.) As for the two transactions prior to this, one was for a 53 Bowman Campanella SGC 50 and the other for an ungraded 1968 Topps Posters Mickey Mantle box cut out. In both cases, the buyers sought me out with their bid - essentially setting the price - and I agreed. I guess it won't be hard to figure out who bought what now will it.

So, here's the original lot; just seems odd that it's not been posted in this thread yet. Or I just didn't see it.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238614

After my friend gave me a few bucks for the Pin Up and the Jay, I sold a 1956 Topps #135 card to Steven for $250. We arrived at this price because he said he'd pay 200 against my 300 offer and I suggested we could meet in the middle if he really wanted the card other wise I'll stay and hope for the best. At NO POINT was price contingent on grade; what was very important was that he be able to sell it for more money. I clearly stated I think it would grade a 3 but I am not a professional and I offer no guarantee. I packed it well (my cost) and shipped it with tracking for free (my cost). My listing was posted for all to see. I wasn't trying to get one over on anyone. Since I don't have a scanner, I take a picture with my phone. So, knowing the picture sucks and is often not even facing the right direction because I can't even post it right, I do what most people don't and provided an accurate description. Every flaw you see on that card is in the description. Had he asked for more pictures, he'd have gotten more cell phone shots so I don't think it would have made much of a difference.

Now, today I get an email at 10 am, wherein a full refund was demanded and the reason given was 'I am not going to make enough money flipping this card.' I do not believe that to be valid reason and told him, quite politely, to merely sell the card for $250 and he'd have his money back. Since that is around what I paid, I think he can get it too with no problem. I walk away from my computer and go about my day, head off to a retirement party and get home about two hours ago to find...this thread and two other messages.

The first message basically says, I am giving you one hour to respond to this message before I go trash your reputation. The second is I am going to now tarnish your reputation. Shortly thereafter, this thread is created.

To sum up, he got no response to an arbitrary deadline he set for that I was unaware of and then proceeded to create this thread - about which I could not care less - in an attempt to bully me and publicly shame me into giving him a refund.

So here's my response to this thread now that the truth has been told:

Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to thank.

As for the peanut gallery, have at it guys. Team Steve or Team Tim? Somebody print some T-shirts up!

If any moderator wants to verify this info, PM me and I'll give you my log on and password information and you can check every word of what I have said. Steven, please don't ever contact me again and good luck in your trade up.

The right thing to do is issue a refund. No questions asked. Although it is caveat emptor here, this board is extremely successful because all of us can buy and sell things KNOWING that there is an unwritten code of honor that the deal will go thru and all parties will be happy.

By not issuing a refund (regardless of the reason), you have single handedly jeapordized everything that this board stands for. I have completed too numerous to count deals on here and I always felt safe sending hundreds (or at times thousands) of dollars. I am not being dramatic, but I no longer feel secure. None of us can. Do the right thing and issue a refund. Or you should be banned for life. Regardless of whether who is right or who is wrong.

Tim,

If the OP bought the card under the assumption that "it could be a 3" and it clearly isn't, you are at fault.

OK, so he was definitely a little quick with the thread, but I HATE when guys say "any chance of reaching an agreement is now dead" That's a total copout. Either you'll give a refund or you won't. Clearly you won't. There is no way I can conscience that. As with most situations both parties bear some blame, but ultimately it can be made right at no loss (hit him up for shipping if you like) so what GOOD reason can you have for not issuing a refund???

He may be wrong for starting a thread before giving you adequate time to respond to his refund request, but you are WAY wrong for not issuing a refund. That card not a 3. We like to feel safe around here. A refund should be issued or you should be banned.

I guess I am surprised by some responses on here. I would agree that Tim needs to issue a refund though.

What surprises me is that everyone is jumping on the claim the Tim said it would grade a 3. Man, I don't even listen to someone when they say stuff like that as I will determine what it would grade, not someone else if I am buying.

So would the deal have been acceptable if Tim hadn't said "it should grade a 3"?

Interesting. I feel if he hadn't mentioned grading a 3, the buyer wouldn't be entitled to a refund but should still get one. This isn't the ebay jungle. I like to believe BST is somewhat safer. Even on ebay, the buyer would be able to file a claim through paypal and likely get a refund.

If I was the seller I would be angry that this was taken public before I had a chance to make it right. VERY angry. My initial reaction would probably be the same or similar to the seller. But if I put myself in the buyer's shoes, the card was not described properly and the pic was at best, poor quality. As the buyer, I might even think the pic was deceptive. Refund less whatever he is out for shipping seems like the right thing to do.

I agree that a refund should be issued minus the shipping, or there should be an immediate ban. I wouldn't feel safe anymore in the BST, otherwise.

Message
 

Did the card get sent for grading or again was it an assumption it would not grade a 3. Again the real world means do your due diligence and let the chips fall where they may. Shit happens. Move on.

I'd be inclined to say yes.

The seller indicated that he is not a professional and offers no guarantee. That is perfectly fine, but then I wouldn't make a prediction as to what the card would possibly grade. I would suggest posting clear, accurate scans and allow potential buyers to make their own determination.

Perhaps it is a question of degrees. To me, I believe that card would grade a 1.5. That is enough standard deviations away from a 3 where I think a potential recipient would be unhappy with the transaction.

I'd also agree that the seller had little time to respond before drastic action was taken by the creation of this thread.

Two complete rookies, one a seller and the other a buyer, both way in over their respective heads in what would normally be the easiest of transactions. One should learn how to provide a decent representation of their product in both images and words, and the other undertaking a huge project by having to resort to a ton of help when nothing goes as exactly planned. Issue a refund and be done with it. Then each take a step back until they know the simplest of academics. - P. S(p)ector

^^^^^^^^^

perfectly stated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree. While I don't want to get involved in deals on the BST, I don't like the way this deal was handled, at all. The description was wrong and the pictures were small. The flippant last response was all I could take.
Tim (hi Tim) will give a refund or not be on the BST any longer. This board is not "business as usual". If you give a poor (wrong) description and tiny pics that don't show the defects, well then you should give a timely refund or go someplace that is "business as usual." This needs to be a place where you can count on a friendly and good transaction, or if there is a problem and it's addressed right away, it should be taken care of fairly. (and I agree the seller should have been given a bit more time to deal with it, but a return is warranted regardless)

ps...I think it was the "there are winners and losers" comment that really threw me. Really? Winners and losers on our BST? No, not.

You should link a visa debit card to PayPal, then you have recourse through your bank, and through visa, if your bank will not help you. That is why they charge the interest they do.

The guy used a few 'seller tactic's favorites that i reference in other threads:

1. Fake Purpose: Usually its for medical bills or something but in this case its for the wife's kitchen countertops

2. From Personal Collection


Why not just refund the card. But man, thats why graded cards make sense. There would be soooo many differences of opinion of what a VG, or G card is.

I think a Seller can just say 'NO RETURNS EVER' right up front to never worry about buyers remorse as well..

either way it does look Eyeonvintage has issues with more than just one guy on net54..

Instead of typing out that treatise justifying yourself, you should have just said, I'm new here, I didn't understand the way this community works, I'll issue the refund but I won't deal with Stephen again.

I still surprised when people predict a half grade. Half grades occur so infrequently compared to a base grade . I would say a 1 or 2 range and not say 1.5

sometimes buyers beg for the seller to give an estimate of the grade when the seller says hes not a professional grader. So if the buyer begs and begs and the seller says, i guess it could be a 3....would the buyer also be entitled to a refund for the seller being so way off..

If I see that comment on our BST the person making it will no longer be there.


.

Im saying if he put that in their email correspondence in general...whether on net54 or outside as a general business practice....probably would be bad business but there may be some sellers that say its unfair if a buyer just has buyers remorse and returns a card for no real reason even though extremely clear scans, very accurate description etc etc.. (which didnt happen in this case)

This one kind of threw me a bit as well. Good deals are when both sides are happy/satisfied (IMO). Understanding all the emotion that is involved here - POV from each side, what started, who said what, who's right, etc. - I keep coming back to this - - was it/is it really worth all of this to not just refund a $250 card (you feel confident in reselling) and move on?

The card does NOT look like a '3'. On a GOOD day, I can see the card getting a "2", but it might not even bring VCP average at that level. The seller DID disclose all the issues with the card. I am in the camp that DOES NOT call a spider wrinkle a crease. As a matter of fact, a good card doctor (which I am not) can get those out. For BOTH parties...the buyer, next time ask for better scans. For the seller....offer a better scan...and be honest with the evaluation. That would prevent issues like this from arising. Carry on.

Steven, this is the real world and not the Ultimate Trade Up. When grown men make deals, there are winners and losers. Every person on this board has suffered a touch of buyers remorse or felt like they over paid for a card, myself included. The difference is that most of us deal with it and move on. Certainly, running around trashing people is the way you choose to handle it. I'm a bad person because you feel you overpaid for a card. If that's way you want it and you want to sing about it on the internet to the net54 members, feel free. However, any hope of remediation (a partial refund, a better deal on another card, etc.) is now completely out the window despite being completely realistic less than 14 hours ago. And you actually have no one but yourself to than




Right we had that situation occur previousuly the old 'i would of given you a refund but because of your attitude or whatever reason i am not now'

If somebody says that it means they never were going to give a refund. I do agree that it was too quick to trash somebody on a thread after a quick deadline. However if i was the seller i would of said, Refund given and by the way i wasonly emailed a request for a refund it appears 3 hours ago and i just read my email only to find out i am being trashed in 3 hours.

I have refunded the money like i would have even before a trashy thread was made against me had i been given more than an hour to receive the email etc.....

Because 1.5 is not a half grade. It is a FAIR card. Fair is a standard way of assessing a raw card. For other ranges, you can see a card that normally looks like a 6 due to corner wear or surface issue, but might predict a 6.5 due to exact centering on a normally poorly centered issue.
As to this card, I think Fair is a reasonable assessment of this card, and neither side did the right thing. eBay would have suspended EYECOLLECT for feedback extortion, but they would have also forced a return for Item Not As Described.

I just have one question. If the no questions asked returns are going to be the policy, is the buyer or seller going to be responsible for shipping?

I also recently went through this same exact thing with another member. I was traded a card that was supposed to be VG and when I received it the card was not even close to VG. We worked it out like adults thought and even made another trade so no extra shipping was involved for either of us.:)

Normally I would say the person returning the card pays to ship it back.

Where does it say, or when has anyone ever said, there would be a no questions asked return policy here? Are you serious? As I obviously wasn't clear, that is NOT the policy and never will be. This extraordinary, mandated return is being mandated for the reasons already stated. And the seller (hi Tim and this isn't personal) can also just leave and not do anything. It's America....

Specifically I wouldn't want to see a NO RETURNS EVER message in a BST listing here. If people do it other places that is their business. It is not the attitude that is wanted here.

FWIW I asked this member how much for a lot of cards he offered me and he exploded on me for simply asking a price.

Originally Posted by Sean1125
What is your group price?

Yesterday, 01:12 AM
Timbegs

Default Re: 1953 Bowman Colow w BOTH MANTLES
Is this a joke? I showed you the cards; make an offer or don't. Very simple.

Forgive me if I have the wrong person. I thought you said you buy cards. If not, do you know anyone who does?

I'm looking for a bid. I don't do this for a living; I am just trying to raise some funds to surprise my wife with some new countertops in the kitchen. So again, let me know if you have a bid and are a card buyer. Or can direct to me to a person who might put a price on them rather than answer questions with questions. An actual card buyer.

I'm not giving them away for nothing and will be listing all 23 cards as one lot on eBay in a few hours. I figured I would give SOMEONE from this board a chance to get a good deal first but I've had no takers and not one offer despite giving net54 a decent head start.

So if you have a price where you'll buy them, you should show it. I will counter if I don't just hit the bid. The sooner, the better. I will take what I can get and these should draw interest and I imagine I'll sell them by tonight the latest on eBay as I need the money.

I thought people would at least make some kind of offer on this board. I am kind of surprised, honestly.

Anyway, if I made a mistake and you don't buy cards, I apologize. If you buy cards please make an offer.

Thanks
Tim


I let him know I felt his response was rude and unwarranted. He did apologize after the fact.

LOL.
Cues up Cyndi Lauper.

When a seller says he is giving a good deal, but also says he doesnt sell cards for a living than I am not sure how he knows what a good deal is. Plus, the fact nobody was willing to pay his price would seem he does not know how to price.

I think he should of asked whether you buy cards to sell them later at a loss....you could of said no to that

Given what I have read from this seller and buyer-EYEON in the earlier transaction that is subject to the thread, it was really the wrong seller for the wrong buyer.... if they made 3 deals, SOMETHING bad would of happened but it occurred on the first deal.


Its sort of like when drivers pick up hitchhikers in shady areas. I was told never to pick up any hitchhikers because hitchhikers can be dangerous. I was also told never to accept a random ride from someone because the drivers can be dangerous. Thus you have dangerous drivers picking up dangerous hitchhikers. Its an issue of who will take out the knife first i guess. Sooner or later SOMETHING bad will happen.

That is hysterical!

I'm not sure I can even count how many times someone who is offering something for sale has given me a similar response when I ask how much.

Always happens to me at card shows. I see something that piques my interest, inquire about the price and get a response like "Gee, I don;t don;t know. What do you think it's worth?"

Mind boggling.

Wow.....alrighty then.

I dont know what kind of card shows you go to, but I have never had that response.

Agree
 

So is seller banned yet?

Quick question -

Did the buyer ever ask the seller about a return policy?

If the seller is stating the truth about the buyer then I believe that providing an hour to respond to an email message is a bit of an ambitious request. Sometimes I go days without checking my personal email. :eek:

OK then.... I read all 9 pages of thread but still not sure why. Kinda like watchin a train wreck I guess.

FWIW - the SGC Grading scale - I could see how one might call it a 2 (and possibly a 3)

40 VG 3 90/10 or better centering, corners more rounded--but not excessive, stronger creasing may exist. Poorer focus, registration, and discoloration, and staining are more noticeable.

30 GOOD 2 Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits one or more of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tear, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss.

20 FAIR 1.5 Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits several of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, a small portion of the card may be missing.

10 POOR 1 This card usually exhibits many of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tears, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss, small portions of the card may be missing.

I agree this seller should be banned. This is not the way we should do business here. But am I the only one who thinks the buyer caused a big part of the problem? I won't be able to flip this for enough of a profit is a very stupid thing to say when asking for a refund. It really seems like they're both clueless to me and I would not consider doing business with either one.

Pardon me for not putting on my Team Steven jersey. Both sides are wrong. Tim should refund the money. There is no question about that. This isn't eBay. We are a group of collectors who rely on this being our one safe-haven against these kind of things. If you don't know about grading, then don't claim it is a 3. You can't have it both ways and use an estimated grade as a selling-point, and then use your ignorance of grading as a defense after the fact.
Now a hypothetical question for Steven. You buy a raw card that the seller thought was VG, and send it to grade. The card comes back a 6. Would you send the seller a check for the difference? You can't have it both ways either. You took a risk on a raw card, and what bothers me most is that your chief complaint is that YOU CANT FLIP IT FOR A PROFIT! Not that you feel the card isn't worth what you paid, but rather that you can't make a profit on it!
This thread is just annoying on so many levels.

Tim has PM'd, asked for his account to be deleted, and said he isn't going to refund any money to Stephen. Here is my response....

Hi Tim
We don't delete accounts generally speaking.
That being said I will honor your wish and you have been banned. It was definitely your choice. Happy collecting,
LL

.

This whole thing kinda stinks. The " give me a refund or I'm going to trash your reputation on the Net54 forum"- left me with the worst taste of all of it.

I agree, I feel some people might think twice about making deals with him if it could lead to a thread like this in the future.

Someone buying to flip is as entitled to be happy with a card, and to receive accurate disclosures, as someone buying for his collection. I don't see why it makes a difference. Not that I am on Team Steven either, I don't think he handled this particularly well, but he's young I think and will learn.

What I meant, Peter, is that inherent in that statement is the idea that he can get his money back FROM ANOTHER BUYER, but not make a profit. This would mean (gasp) that he paid fair market value for it.

If you buy something from me and I misrepresented it,
intentionally or unintentionally, don't you think you deserve a timely refund?

Ok I think a lot of you are listening to what he said seriously when it's not the case.

1. I politely asked for a refund

2. He said no. (Answered in less than 10 mins)

3. I said I don't want to but I will take it to the board. Gave him a hour to get back to me ( no answer, after he admits reading it in that time frame) .

4. I then contacted him again say please let's settle this as the last thing I wanna do is make the thread. ( no answer)

5. Then I contacted him again!! ( no answer)

In total I gave him 4 hours almost to rectify the issue. I know he always answers quick as every correspondence we've ever had was quick.

6. I then posted and deleted. Feeling bad and still wanting to give him a chance.


Those are facts so please don't get the picture of me rushing him to a decision. I just felt robbed.

Please see the ENTIRE FIRST PARAGRAPH of my initial post. The fact that I am annoyed by his reasoning doesn't mean I don't think he should get his money back.