It's better than nothing
 

Full disclosure, I'm both a consignor and buyer with PWCC...

I understand that Brent lost credibility with some after the WWG DiMaggio fiasco, but at least he's doing something. It might not be at the speed that some want, but he's the only seller on eBay putting in these limitations, and he said up front it would be a slow process. Because of that, he needs to be careful because if consignors think that at any point these policies are limiting his ability to get top dollar for his lots, they'll simply move to someone without the same restrictions.

I have told people when I am giving a card away...it wasn't to cheat the system. If I am giving a card away, I rather it go to someone off of here than some Joe Blow out of Kansas. I like seeing my friends make money, if I can't.....

Hey now
 

Hey now,let's leave Kansas out of this! 😉

Lol

I see the problem as Ebay, not PWCC. They are a publicly traded, for profit corporation. That tells you most of what you need to know as to why this stuff goes on.

I don't understand the eBay excuse. If your capable of controlling the retracted bids then eBay has done enough. If you decided to take advantage of the loopholes then that's the individual not eBay.

I have zero in 5000 purchases. If two percent (which is your 10 number) is allowable is it ok if I had 100?

The allowable number should be one...ever. If people make more than one mistake I feel a one year banishment is fine. no one with 10 retractions in 6 months isn't doing it deliberately.

So if it makes you more money it's justified? I don't follow that one, at all. I mean of course I do, but not as a matter of integrity or ethics.

PWCC could announce that they are giving away all cards that they have listed and some people here would still bitch about the way PWCC went about doing so.
James

Id feel a heckuva lot better about someone with 100 retractions and 5000 purchases than someone with 10 retractions and 15 purchases.

The real bizarreness of PWCC is that they are an auction house that doesn't run auctions. They post to eBay and say "worthy of attention" a few hundred times.

Doesn't run auctions? They run auctions on eBay, a platform for online auctions. How is this even remotely bizarre?

Agree, though, that they've never had a card that wasn't "worthy of attention" or "perhaps the best they've brokered in recent memory."

This whole thread proves that these are eBays auctions under eBays rules. Al from LOTG has his rules. As does Goldin and the others. These are run under EBays rules.

And conversely they could commit blatant fraud and some people here would be making excuses for them and praising them.

..as well as continuing to buy and consign to them

Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...4AAOSw~CFY8Sk4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-S...MAAOSwj25Y8COL

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...4AAOSww3tY7~6i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-S...wAAOSwGy5Y8SiC

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...EAAOSwj25Y8SlP

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Lege...QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Ga...QAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...kAAOSw3utY8SVB

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-C...8AAOSwCWFY8Sc2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star...i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...cAAOSwc49Y8CIe

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...8AAOSwTM5Y8SVZ

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisi...UAAOSw~CFY8SvG

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...cAAOSwnF9Y7~6N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...AAAOSw03lY7~9H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...oAAOSwmgJY8SlQ

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...i:401308459405

Attachment 270424

There's a problem

Eddie, I copied your post to and sent it to Brent. While relying on the public for reporting seems like a bit of a cop out, if someone goes through all the work you did we might as well pass it along. If you want, keep us posted if those auctions see a bunch of bidders kicked out.

Eddie: Thanks for bringing up the issue with Jordan sales, that is surely 'worthy of our attention'.

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months."

Uh...ok. Eddie, you must be mistaken.:eek:

Depends on how literally you take news coming out that day... ;-)
But they have told us since they can't see the bidder info when they're logged in, they require us to do the research for them. They probably should have written "PWCC places blocks on any known user ID". Or they could just keep a different browser open and look it up themselves? Or work with eBay to make bid retractions visible to sellers? Or have eBay create an automatic block against those bidders? Or just stop holding auctions?

What happened to the new hire whose job was to monitor auctions or whatever?

Ah here it is.
"First, we hired a full-time customer service and bid monitoring representative. Her job is to promptly answer email, phone calls, and review bid activity on our auctions. She takes action on all notifications of bid retractions that we receive from eBay real time as well as spot checks our listings for bidders with a high number of bid retractions, zero-feedback bidders, and low-feedback bidders. I am also assisting in this process. She started working with PWCC in the second week of January and is now fully engaged in her role in monitoring auctions."

I was quite surprised that the info they printed late last year about about bid retractions, shill bidding and the other one I can't currently think of, was also written the year before, and from what I remember, a year or 2 before that as well. :eek:

I was fairly new here and thought that was great of them to do but to my chagrin, I seen their promises were nothing new nor had anything changed.:confused:

To quote Robin Williams in Aladdin:
""There are a few exceptions, a few provisos, and a couple of quid pro quos."

Thanks. :) I had some free time last night. LOL.

I actually would like to pick up a couple of Jordan Star cards at some point (the Star No. 101 is out of my budget), but Jordan in particular seems to be a favorite subject of rampant bid retractors. I didn't even go through nearly all of the 473 Michael Jordan auctions PWCC is running right now, but the amount of shady bidders even shocked me when I started looking at auction after auction. That was why I kept looking at one auction after another.

No Problem. :) Like I wrote, I had some free time. But I was shocked by the degree that Jordan auctions were infested with serial retractors. I didn't look at any other player, but many of Jordan's cards have made a gigantic move upward in the past 12-18 months. There is wide speculation that many of his popular cards have been shilled to extreme measures recently.

A legitimate question.....
 

Great question...

Must have run off with Probstein's Wes Spece

An idea
 

Why don't they start a bidder mentoring program?

Maybe we just have several bidders who can't quite decide which Jordan card they really want. :D:cool:

I thought the new hire turned out to be his wife???

Then again, maybe neither nor or either or...

~ crickets~

Nice list here. Certainly a ton of fraud going on,
still....

Did you expect anything else? There is no way they will come on here or any of the other places they posted the same exact thing. Any response from PWCC is a lose lose situation for them. It is like the Masto debacle, the guys that spoke out got nailed and the ones that shut up are now considered respectable.

These threads are awesome though. One guy admitted you can easily buy his integrity and others say it is OK because they use their services.

Facts are pesky things when they conflict with the story line. It seems to me there are two possibilities: they aren't very good at what they claim to be doing, or they are making exceptions to the policy for certain regular bidders. My guess is the latter.

Yet their banner ad sits high and proud at the top of this page.

They are an advertiser. If you don't like it, leave.
I should add that, imo, the consignors who retract a lot of bids are committing the fraud. I hope PWCC will continue to put pressure on the retractors and reduce the number significantly in the near future. Ebay could do more too.....

Bid what a card is worth to you and not above that and you will never be defrauded.

There is fraud and fraudulent collusion and doctoring of cards in the hobby.

“I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!”

Two potential problems with your first thought, one, what a card is worth to you could well have been influenced by price inflation due to fraud, and two, even though you win a card for what it is worth to you, if the card was shill bid you might still pay more than you would have absent fraud.

Completely agree with your second thought.

PWCC business model is using the eBay platform and keeping the once successful auctions alive in the eBay community like it was over a decade ago. I Think we all agree we don't like seeing the same old cards with museum prices on them or a retail price without the auction excitement. Many complaints should go to eBay on their policies. Just set your snipe bid for a card you like and forget about it. You will either win it for what you were willing to pay for it, or you will lose it.

PWCC might want to block problem bidders who don't pay for items or people that constantly speak out saying they won't do business with them. I'm sure some of these people still bid in their auctions privately.

I'm thankful they are keeping the auction process alive and they are getting a tremendous amount of material consigned to them for us collectors to have the chance to bid in and possible own if we bid high enough.

JC I don't get your point. Are we supposed to be so grateful to PWCC for running auctions as opposed to BINs that we should overlook their flaws when people point them out, like selling a cleaned 4 as a 7 with no disclosure even though Brent was personally involved in the card's history, or announcing a crackdown on retracting bidders which as Eddie figured out in a few minutes isn't really taking place as advertised, and so on?

Peter, I'm looking at their business model as a whole. I love the true auction where everything starts out at 99 cents. There have been tremendous realized prices both low and high. I like that they allow Paypal payments and they ship very quickly. Plus I like they have fresh new material auctioning off every month without reserves (Yes, you can make the argument that a few lots have hidden reserves done by the consignor or by their friends).

I'm not dismissing one bit it was wrong what happened on the DiMaggio World Wide card which Brent IMO got greedy on and should have had full disclosure on it. I think and hope he should learn from other successful auction companies before it becomes too late with their habitual bad way of doing business like Doug Allen and the king fish of Bill Mastro. Hopefully Brent doesn't follow in their footsteps which includes the people he chooses to surround himself in the hobby circle. Allen and Mastro were tight with John Rogers who we all know how he is/was.

I know many of us want Brent with PWCC to be the pioneer in the hobby on eBay to weed out the already flawed system eBay has. It's true he can do more to prevent fraud and shenanigans. It's a positive step that they are willing to do this unlike many other eBay sellers who can hide behind different alias names.

++ There is also soaking, shilling, frosting, cracking, reprinting, counterfeiting, card doctoring, bid peddling, etc. It's what makes our hobby unique. Do your research; understand how your money is spent. if you choose to put your head up your ass and blame others for how you got f'd, then no amount of threads on this forum is going to help you.

I list a card on EBAY for 99 cents.

You see it, think it's value is $1,000 and place a snipe for $750.

Heading into the final minute of the auction I see the card has no bids and use a different account to place a bid of $500 within the final seconds.

The auction ends with two bids -- mine and yours. You win the card for $505, more than $200 less than what you were willing to pay!!!!! Had I not shilled it, you would have paid .99.

Using your logic, you didn't get shilled or cheated because you paid less than what you were willing to.

I know this example is unrealistic and very simple. I did it that way so its easy to understand. But the number of bids, the amount of bids and the timing the bids are placed makes no difference. A buyers state of mind or what he's "willing" to pay add nothing to the definition of shilling or being cheated.

JC,
You may have a more expansive view of what constitutes a "true auction" than others.

Great news! Now maybe you can focus on; asking clients to bid on items? :eek:

I agree 100%.

On a side note, I still don't understand why there are 40+bids on an auction that is 10 days long with 9 days left. To me, this makes no logical sense. Meaning, why are bidding wars occurring with 9 days left on a 10 day auction? This alone is a huge red flag. What is stopping a cosigner to have 10 of his buddies drive the price up on day 1 of a 10 day auction? Which IMO is happening a decent amount in PWCC auctions.

Maybe I'm just not following why someone would even bid on a 10 day auction on day number 1? If I'm interested in a said auction, it first goes in my watch-list, I then look for other similar examples of the card on ebay, I come up with a price I'm willing to pay and place my bid with 10 seconds left. I can understand a bunch of bids coming in on the last day of the auction but, not on day 1 of a 10 day auction. It's very suspect to me.

Nick as i have said for years this seems to happen over and over on many of their big ticket cards.

I think someone mentioned before they like to bid this way (early and often), to scare other bidders away. I wouldn't do it, but I guess it makes a little bit of sense. But, yeah...it happens quite a bit with this seller...

The reason for all the early bidding is so the item gets more views. If you do not use a specific search function the items with more bids/views show up higher on the list. This early bidding/shilling is done by a few people to get their items more views.