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-   -   Does Everyone Understand Pre-War? (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=221392)

irv 04-22-2016 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1530572)
of course you do:
I personally never cared for Prince's music but there is no denying he was on multi talented individual.

I recently seen this vid and was blown away by how good of a guitar player he was. I had no idea truthfully. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SFNW5F8K9Y

steve_a 04-22-2016 05:48 PM
1 Attachment(s)
I've been curious so seems like a place to ask.. What's the origin of the net54 name? Was it a 54 Topps board? Or started by a Gene Schott fan? Or something else altogether?

irishdenny 04-22-2016 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1530544)
The answer to your question is NO.

I read this thread this morning and didn't comment, but I thought the OP was being too uptight. I moved on to other threads. Then, I read the E90-1 Young thread in total disbelief.

Now, I am in agreement with the OP of this thread. He is spot on. How can anyone that knows anything about E90-1s look at that card and not know it's real? The OP is right. We do need more Pre-War threads, more Pre-War knowledge.

I'm not calling anyone out, so don't take it personal if I quoted you, but here are some of the comments in that thread about the Young:
  • very...very...BAD!
  • The color is washed out. The corners are uniformly rounded. It doesn't look like real E90-1 Young cards.
  • Note how different the background looks. Shadows etc.
  • and the "quaity" of the type in the name, team...the fake is different...look closely...not the right color either.
  • All bad, IMO. All exhibit similar corner wear....
  • obvious fakes

Here's the one that takes the cake about the Young card. "...no way I take this gamble. And I like to gamble. The payoff isn't high enough and it doesn't seem worth the shipping and grading fees to find out." If you have a card in hand and you can't tell if it is fake or not and have to send it to some third party authenticator to determine that for you, you are in the wrong hobby.

Again, not calling anybody out and if I quoted you, don't take it personal. However, many of these comments were made by long time board members that should know the difference between a real and a fake.

The OP of this thread is right - less OT threads and more Pre-War threads - especially when people can't tell the difference between a real or fake E90-1. And I've been guilty of participating in the OT main board threads too. Shame on me. It's just sad though when we (as a group), a Pre-War board, has regressed to the point that we can't tell the difference between a real and fake E90-1 Young, but we can tell you anything about Bryce Harper, Phil Rizzuto, Prince, etc. Again, I've been just as guilty. Shame on us.
Hey There David!,

I Mention'd that the E90-1 and E95 Both Have the Same Papar Stock!
And THaT E90-1's Nevar Fray at the Ends Like this E90-1 Has...
So We Disagree!
I've Been Handling E90-1's & E95's fir the Last 4 years ... Diligently!
And I Always Start with The Papar Stock...

Okay... There's my BeginiN Reason Why I Think the Cards are Fake!
So, Tell Us Why You Think There Real!?
You Didn't Give any Reason(s) fir their Authenticity ...
Just Boast'd THaT They Are Real!

And Just ta Note...
You Didn't Call me Out ;)

Leon 04-22-2016 06:21 PM
The board used to be hosted by Network54.com .. This name is a derivative of that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_a (Post 1530675)
I've been curious so seems like a place to ask.. What's the origin of the net54 name? Was it a 54 Topps board? Or started by a Gene Schott fan? Or something else altogether?

Lordstan 04-22-2016 07:04 PM
I think some people perhaps are misinterpreting the OP's comments. I don't think he, or the others that agree with him, are saying that these threads and discussions are bad or not interesting. I think they are just commenting that they don't belong in the section of the board where Pre War card discussions go. The board has sections so that there some organization and grouping of like subjects. This allows people who are looking for a certain topic to know where they are likely to find that topic being discussed. I collect Lou Gehrig memorabilia and autographs and have no real interest in reading about 1948 Bowman or 1941 PlayBall, so am glad there is a memorabilia/auto section. I appreciate that I don't have to wade through posts that have no real interest to me. I know it wouldn't take a long time, but it's still nice to not have to do so.

Say RIP to Prince or other famous people who influenced our society in one way or another is definitely reasonable, but shouldn't it be in the Off Topic section? He was not a baseball player from before WW2. Not sure why it's so wrong to put the RIP thread in the correct place.

I appreciate Leon's looser style of governance, but can also understand that some might feel the balance of posts shifting and wish it weren't.

Peter_Spaeth 04-22-2016 07:19 PM
Who cares? If you want to read a topic read it if you don't don't. Not like moving a bunch of stuff off the main page is going to produce any more pre-war posts.

coolshemp 04-22-2016 08:10 PM
I always thought Pre-War referred to pre-WWI. The war to end all wars. How did that work out?

Stonepony 04-22-2016 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by irv (Post 1530638)
I personally never cared for Prince's music but there is no denying he was on multi talented individual.

I recently seen this vid and was blown away by how good of a guitar player he was. I had no idea truthfully. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SFNW5F8K9Y
Supreme guitarist, yes!

edjs 04-22-2016 08:22 PM
2 Attachment(s)
I'm sorry, I felt this thread could use a couple more cards right about now. :)

Chive on!

Kenny Cole 04-22-2016 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1530720)
Who cares? If you want to read a topic read it if you don't don't. Not like moving a bunch of stuff off the main page is going to produce any more pre-war posts.
+1. I so hate it when I agree with Peter. It makes me feel .... dirty. ;)

vintagetoppsguy 04-22-2016 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1530720)
If you want to read a topic read it if you don't don't.
Then why have different sub forums? Let's just post everything on the main forum - B/S/T listings, Post War, Memorabilia, Autographs, etc. - and people can just sift through the threads and only read the topics they want to read?

Beansballcardblog 04-22-2016 11:06 PM
I can't even seem to get away from whining on sports cards message boards. <sigh>

First off, if you click on "Net54Baseball Homepage," it brings you to this forum. That pretty much assures that you will see random posts.

I have posted a thread in this forum that isn't "Pre War Baseball" and will continue to post in that thread. I'm not sorry about it at all. There wasn't a natural place for it. I posted it in this forum. It's gotten comments. I'm sorry you are being inconvenienced. The world isn't all unicorns and fields of daisies.

Dewey 04-22-2016 11:23 PM
I always thought prewar meant before the next war. They come so quickly.

irishdenny 04-23-2016 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu_class_of_2001 (Post 1530769)
I can't even seem to get away from whining on sports cards message boards. <sigh>

First off, if you click on "Net54Baseball Homepage," it brings you to this forum. That pretty much assures that you will see random posts.

I have posted a thread in this forum that isn't "Pre War Baseball" and will continue to post in that thread. I'm not sorry about it at all. There wasn't a natural place for it. I posted it in this forum. It's gotten comments. I'm sorry you are being inconvenienced. The world isn't all unicorns and fields of daisies.
Anarchy...

"And So iT BeGiNs...The Next Generation!" ;)

As Always my Friends...

pokerplyr80 04-23-2016 12:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1530758)
Then why have different sub forums? Let's just post everything on the main forum - B/S/T listings, Post War, Memorabilia, Autographs, etc. - and people can just sift through the threads and only read the topics they want to read?
I don't really care but agree with this. I collect post war and visit that forum as well. Perhaps more members would check it as well as other sections if posts were made in the proper place.

RCMcKenzie 04-23-2016 12:25 AM
T5 Pinkerton
 
1 Attachment(s)
Nice T5's, Ed...Here's a Playball card which is obviously not pre WWII, but is in the spirit of this section...

vintagebaseballcardguy 04-23-2016 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerplyr80 (Post 1530775)
I don't really care but agree with this. I collect post war and visit that forum as well. Perhaps more members would check it as well as other sections if posts were made in the proper place.
I also collect post war and would like to see more posts in the post war forum. For me, that would be the primary motivation for keeping the forum contents separate. I read through the main/pre war forum often and enjoy the diversity the two eras offer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

TUM301 04-23-2016 05:08 AM
O T Threads
 
What`s the line from Stripes, you know, when Sgt. Hulka turns towards "psycho" and gives him his take ?

T206Collector 04-23-2016 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1530544)
The answer to your question is NO.

I read this thread this morning and didn't comment, but I thought the OP was being too uptight. I moved on to other threads. Then, I read the E90-1 Young thread in total disbelief.

Now, I am in agreement with the OP of this thread. He is spot on. How can anyone that knows anything about E90-1s look at that card and not know it's real? The OP is right. We do need more Pre-War threads, more Pre-War knowledge.

I'm not calling anyone out, so don't take it personal if I quoted you, but here are some of the comments in that thread about the Young:
  • very...very...BAD!
  • The color is washed out. The corners are uniformly rounded. It doesn't look like real E90-1 Young cards.
  • Note how different the background looks. Shadows etc.
  • and the "quaity" of the type in the name, team...the fake is different...look closely...not the right color either.
  • All bad, IMO. All exhibit similar corner wear....
  • obvious fakes

Here's the one that takes the cake about the Young card. "...no way I take this gamble. And I like to gamble. The payoff isn't high enough and it doesn't seem worth the shipping and grading fees to find out." If you have a card in hand and you can't tell if it is fake or not and have to send it to some third party authenticator to determine that for you, you are in the wrong hobby.

Again, not calling anybody out and if I quoted you, don't take it personal. However, many of these comments were made by long time board members that should know the difference between a real and a fake.

The OP of this thread is right - less OT threads and more Pre-War threads - especially when people can't tell the difference between a real or fake E90-1. And I've been guilty of participating in the OT main board threads too. Shame on me. It's just sad though when we (as a group), a Pre-War board, has regressed to the point that we can't tell the difference between a real and fake E90-1 Young, but we can tell you anything about Bryce Harper, Phil Rizzuto, Prince, etc. Again, I've been just as guilty. Shame on us.
+1

I was equally surprised by the number of people convinced the card was fake. To me that was people making a decision about the cards based on a zero feedback seller and shoddy grammar in the listing. The photos of the cards was not ideal either but I don't think there were any red flags about authenticity.

vintagesportscollector 04-23-2016 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TUM301 (Post 1530790)
What`s the line from Stripes, you know, when Sgt. Hulka turns towards "psycho" and gives him his take ?
"Lighen up Francis"...funny, whenever I see or hear melodramatic whinning I think of that line.

That being said, while I don't really care, it would better to see threads kept in the right forum. Some topics however, even off topic, have a place in the "home" forum for all to see and share comments.

buymycards 04-23-2016 06:48 AM
Wwii
 
If we are talking about pre WWII, do we mean when America entered the war in December of 1941 or when Hitler first got things started in Europe in the late 30's?

And if you live in Wisconsin like I do, everything IS unicorns and fields of daisy's.

Rick

Mountaineer1999 04-23-2016 06:55 AM
Things to do Saturday:
*Walk five miles
*Fill out Draftkings and fantasy lineups
*Mow the lawn
*Bump all non PreWar topics to top on Net54 PreWar forum

Leon 04-23-2016 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999 (Post 1530807)
Things to do Saturday:
*Walk five miles
*Fill out Draftkings and fantasy lineups
*Mow the lawn
*Bump all non PreWar topics to top on Net54 PreWar forum
Things for a moderator to do on a Sarturday.

1. Nix ideas of anarchy :).
2. Go to kitchen and get more coffee.
3. Play with dogs.


.

frankbmd 04-23-2016 07:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1530811)
Things for a moderator to do on a Sarturday.

1. Nix ideas of anarchy :).
2. Go to kitchen and get more coffee.
3. Play with dogs.


.
I would remind everyone that Leon only plays with post-war dogs, I think?

Buythatcard 04-23-2016 07:11 AM
Why don't we just have 1 forum for all cards. Just require the OP to place the year of the card in the title.

This way you can do an advanced search of the titles to find the year that you are interested in.

Leon 04-23-2016 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1530816)
Why don't we just have 1 forum for all cards. Just require the OP to place the year of the card in the title.

This way you can do an advanced search of the titles to find the year that you are interested in.
No.

Mountaineer1999 04-23-2016 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1530811)
Things for a moderator to do on a Sarturday.
1. Nix ideas of anarchy :).
.
We all have a tad of anarchist in us don't we? :)

I say just leave it as it is. It takes literal seconds to scroll down the topics and pick out a favorite to immerse yourself in :D

vintagetoppsguy 04-23-2016 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1530816)
Why don't we just have 1 forum for all cards. Just require the OP to place the year of the card in the title.

This way you can do an advanced search of the titles to find the year that you are interested in.
Would never work and for the same reasons we complain about eBay searches. Somebody would search T206 or 1933 Goudey or whatever and ridiculous threads about reprints would appear in your search results.

begsu1013 04-23-2016 08:59 AM
things to do today:

1. laugh
2. realize ya cant please everyone
3. gonna have to please yourself
4. play some more neil young

begsu1013 04-23-2016 09:00 AM
mission accomplished.

rats60 04-23-2016 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1530572)
of course you do:
http://www.snopes.com/eric-clapton-quote-about-prince/

This purported response is one Clapton is extremely unlikely to have made (in anything but jest), as it follows exactly the narrative of a decades-old (false) urban legend in which either Jimi Hendrix or Clapton himself supposedly answered the same question, in equally surprising fashion, by saying that it should instead have been posed to Phil Keaggy:

While Prince is regarded as a fine musician, he wasn't necessarily seen as being in the top echelon of world-class guitarists by his fellow axe men. Rolling Stones' 2003 list of the "Top 100 Guitarists of All Time" completely omitted him (although he was came in at #33 in a later version). Clapton and Hendrix, however, regularly rank at the top of the list.

edjs 04-23-2016 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 1530776)
Nice T5's, Ed...Here's a Playball card which is obviously not pre WWII, but is in the spirit of this section...
Thanks for noticing the T5s, I love these, especially Leach. Your Heilmann is really nice, he looks so sad, though. Is that what you meant by the spirit of this section? I was trying to provide something else to look at as people browse through all the dialogue. There are a few items shown, and I was looking at the frequency of posts:items, and it seemed time for more items. Derek's contribution of Jackies and Reds was spectacular (as are all the players shown in this thread). Anyways, I enjoy reading all the views/thoughts/opinions/OTs from all of you. It sure beats sitting around staring at the walls. As far as Prince goes, he played a whole bunch of instruments, but guess what? I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!

Peter_Spaeth 04-23-2016 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1530854)
http://www.snopes.com/eric-clapton-quote-about-prince/

This purported response is one Clapton is extremely unlikely to have made (in anything but jest), as it follows exactly the narrative of a decades-old (false) urban legend in which either Jimi Hendrix or Clapton himself supposedly answered the same question, in equally surprising fashion, by saying that it should instead have been posed to Phil Keaggy:

While Prince is regarded as a fine musician, he wasn't necessarily seen as being in the top echelon of world-class guitarists by his fellow axe men. Rolling Stones' 2003 list of the "Top 100 Guitarists of All Time" completely omitted him (although he was came in at #33 in a later version). Clapton and Hendrix, however, regularly rank at the top of the list.
Yeah you would think Clapton Page Richards Berry before you would think of Prince, I would anyhow. I saw some clips where his pyrotechnics were pretty awesome but greatness is more than that. 1 or 33 though a terrible shame that he died young.

Leon 04-23-2016 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1530849)
mission accomplished.
After that go play some Joe Walsh, "There goes the neighborhood."

Bosox Blair 04-23-2016 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1530848)

things to do today:


3. gonna have to please yourself
There are other forums/websites for that too.

Cheers,
Blair

begsu1013 04-23-2016 01:22 PM
joe walsh? now we are talking!!

ordinary average guy is so underated, imo.

been lucky enough to see him twice.

"it's hard to leave when you cant find the door"

and not 100% sure the clapton thing has been disproved yet. im sure we'll get something outta clapton in the next few days.

but this is him in his own words and pretty much the same point:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhIwBNTQ5Yo

the 'stache 04-23-2016 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rats60 (Post 1530854)
While Prince is regarded as a fine musician, he wasn't necessarily seen as being in the top echelon of world-class guitarists by his fellow axe men. Rolling Stones' 2003 list of the "Top 100 Guitarists of All Time" completely omitted him (although he was came in at #33 in a later version). Clapton and Hendrix, however, regularly rank at the top of the list.
Well, as somebody who has been playing the guitar for 25 years, studying a myriad of styles, and incorporating rock, prog, metal, blues, classical and jazz into my playing, I can say the Rolling Stone' Top 100 Guitarists of all-time list is shit. That they listed Kurt Cobain (#12) ahead of true virtuosos like Jeff Beck (#14), Brian May (#39), Ritchie Blackmore (#55), Eddie Van Halen (#70), David Gilmour (#82), and Randy Rhoads (#85), while completely excluding such greats as Al DiMeola, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Andres Segovia, Joe Satriani, Stanley Jordan, Robert Cray, Adrian Belew, Eric Johnson, Joe Pass, Steve Rothery and John Petrucci....is laughable at best.

I've known a lot of guitarists, and not a one of them thought the Rolling Stone list was worth the paper it was printed on.

Kenny Cole 04-24-2016 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache (Post 1531084)
Well, as somebody who has been playing the guitar for 25 years, studying a myriad of styles, and incorporating rock, prog, metal, blues, classical and jazz into my playing, I can say the Rolling Stone' Top 100 Guitarists of all-time list is shit. That they listed Kurt Cobain (#12) ahead of true virtuosos like Jeff Beck (#14), Brian May (#39), Ritchie Blackmore (#55), Eddie Van Halen (#70), David Gilmour (#82), and Randy Rhoads (#85), while completely excluding such greats as Al DiMeola, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Andres Segovia, Joe Satriani, Stanley Jordan, Robert Cray, Adrian Belew, Eric Johnson, Joe Pass, Steve Rothery and John Petrucci....is laughable at best.

I've known a lot of guitarists, and not a one of them thought the Rolling Stone list was worth the paper it was printed on.
I don't think any of those guys are pre-war guitarists. :)

TUM301 04-24-2016 05:15 AM
Pre War Guitarist
 
Pre -War Guitarist, Keith Richards ?

Pat R 04-24-2016 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache (Post 1531084)
Well, as somebody who has been playing the guitar for 25 years, studying a myriad of styles, and incorporating rock, prog, metal, blues, classical and jazz into my playing, I can say the Rolling Stone' Top 100 Guitarists of all-time list is shit. That they listed Kurt Cobain (#12) ahead of true virtuosos like Jeff Beck (#14), Brian May (#39), Ritchie Blackmore (#55), Eddie Van Halen (#70), David Gilmour (#82), and Randy Rhoads (#85), while completely excluding such greats as Al DiMeola, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Andres Segovia, Joe Satriani, Stanley Jordan, Robert Cray, Adrian Belew, Eric Johnson, Joe Pass, Steve Rothery and John Petrucci....is laughable at best.

I've known a lot of guitarists, and not a one of them thought the Rolling Stone list was worth the paper it was printed on.
I agree with you Bill. A while back I was checking out the list to see where some members of the original Lynyrd Skynyrd band ranked (Steve Gaines, Allen Collins and Gary Rossington). I was shocked to see not one of them made the list and just as shocked with some of the people that did. I thought all three could/should have made the list. If there is a top ten list of the worst list's this one should be on it.

rats60 04-24-2016 06:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache (Post 1531084)
Well, as somebody who has been playing the guitar for 25 years, studying a myriad of styles, and incorporating rock, prog, metal, blues, classical and jazz into my playing, I can say the Rolling Stone' Top 100 Guitarists of all-time list is shit. That they listed Kurt Cobain (#12) ahead of true virtuosos like Jeff Beck (#14), Brian May (#39), Ritchie Blackmore (#55), Eddie Van Halen (#70), David Gilmour (#82), and Randy Rhoads (#85), while completely excluding such greats as Al DiMeola, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Andres Segovia, Joe Satriani, Stanley Jordan, Robert Cray, Adrian Belew, Eric Johnson, Joe Pass, Steve Rothery and John Petrucci....is laughable at best.

I've known a lot of guitarists, and not a one of them thought the Rolling Stone list was worth the paper it was printed on.
You are referring to this list that didn't have Prince even listed and it is crap. The list with Prince at 33 has Cobain at 73 and all those guys you listed well ahead of him. Beck 5, Van Halen 8, Gilmour 14, May 26, Rhoads 36 and Blackmore 50.

That list is the opinions of other professional guitarists. The top 3 is pretty well established, Hendrix, Clapton, Page. The further you go down the list, the more subjective it becomes. The point still stands, while Prince was a great guitarist, he was no where near the best living guitarist.

4815162342 04-24-2016 07:14 AM
The irony of this thread is palpable.

Peter_Spaeth 04-24-2016 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole (Post 1531106)
I don't think any of those guys are pre-war guitarists. :)
I think the original RS list had Robert Johnson quite high. The revised one he dropped down.

begsu1013 04-24-2016 09:15 AM
les paul.

edit: and agreed, i'd rather have a roll of toilet paper than a rolling stone.

begsu1013 04-24-2016 09:38 AM
and speaking of rolling stone and it's corporate agendas...this is one of my fav clips.

derek trucks melting john mayer's face:

john mayer who?


not sure if derek ever made RS lists. probably not, but that's more credible to me. i dig the under the radar guys like trucks, warren haynes, dave schools (bass), etc.

edit: in closing for prince, here is a link to his final show. kinda a slow show...it's primarily a panic site, but it has streams of live shows for just about anyone worth listening to along the right hand side.

just about anything found here



back to prewar.

frankbmd 04-24-2016 09:58 AM
The Pick Off
 
This thread coupled with the death of Prince Not Fielder may have the unintended consequence of proving that the number of prewar thread topics may be finite. If true, I feel like weeping.:eek::eek::eek:;)

So to paraphrase a baseball play, let's have a Net54 Pick Off contest.
For those of you with limited free time, watch and listen only to the last two
minutes of each of the following. The contestants are Prince and Clapton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SFNW5F8K9Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4J6i_vw0w

Disclaimer: I have no knowledge or opinion on the top guitarists of all time, but I do have hearing loss.:mad::mad::mad::D

begsu1013 04-24-2016 10:10 AM
for ease, starting at last 2 minutes:

prince


clapton


.

Peter_Spaeth 04-24-2016 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by begsu1013 (Post 1531181)
and speaking of rolling stone and it's corporate agendas...this is one of my fav clips.

derek trucks melting john mayer's face:

john mayer who?


not sure if derek ever made RS lists. probably not, but that's more credible to me. i dig the under the radar guys like trucks, warren haynes, dave schools (bass), etc.

edit: in closing for prince, here is a link to his final show. kinda a slow show...it's primarily a panic site, but it has streams of live shows for just about anyone worth listening to along the right hand side.

just about anything found here



back to prewar.
Derek is 16th.

Eric72 04-24-2016 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4815162342 (Post 1531119)
The irony of this thread is palpable.
I agree.

begsu1013 04-24-2016 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1531200)
Derek is 16th.
wow! so they are only 90% sell-outs? that's nice.


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