Denny, why are all your posts in an odd mix of capitals and lowercase? It makes it frustrating to read for me at least, and I usually don't read what you post because of it.

Denny,

Ross has a point. It is somewhat annoying to read your posts with the UC/LC changes going on. I do enjoy reading your posts.

I'm a Matty fan, and used to think he was the best but the more I've studied Johnson, the more I realize he was the best pitcher of all time, and it's not really even close. If he had been on a first division team his entire career, he likely would have had 520 wins and a 75% winning percentage.

Exactly, I don't even bother trying to read them anymore.

Cy Young. Leads all pitchers in WAR.

No argument here.
Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 150 (1), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 420 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 364 (1), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 1 (3038), Average HOFer ≈ 50
Pitching - 82 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (1st), 165.6 career WAR/89.5 7yr-peak WAR/127.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

I actually find it quite amusing.

You guys obviously don't know Denny! Hope ur doin well u ole scondrel! Fir sure!

Yes, Ruth was 5-1 against Johnson in those two years, but I don't know if I would place much of the blame on Johnson. In their one 1915 meeting, Ruth won 4-3. Both pitchers threw complete games. In their first meeting of 1916, Ruth clearly outpitched Johnson, who gave up 5 runs. The next four meetings, however, Johnson was sensational. On June 1st, Ruth and the Sox won 1-0, and the lone run Johnson surrendered was unearned (3 Senator errors). On August 15th, both pitchers threw complete games. Johnson took the loss...allowing one earned run in 12 2/3 IP. On September 9th, Ruth and the Sox won again 2-1. Johnson threw a complete game in the loss. Three days later, Johnson beat Ruth 4-3.

Johnson in going 1-5 against Ruth had a 2.18 ERA, and a 0.985 WHIP. He didn't get any run support.

What mystery? He held/holds the wins record. That's why the award is named after him.

Knocking Pedro for having 219 wins when he has 54 more than Sandy? Pedro's career ERA+ was 154. Sandy's was 131. Pedro had FIVE seasons with an ERA+ of 200 or higher, with his best being 291. Sandy had none. Sandy's best would be (barely) Pedro's sixth-best. Sandy also benefited greatly from pitching in Dodger Stadium in the 60s, perhaps the greatest pitcher's park of all-time. His career road ERA was 3.04.

Koufax was an amazing pitcher. But Pedro was better.

Well, this is hardly an exhaustive study, but it does show how good the New York Giants and Washington Senators were overall during the careers of Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson. Keep in mind that both Mathewson and Johnson, throughout their careers, also appeared in games they did not start. Mathewson pitched in 635 games for the Giants, starting 551. Johnson pitched in 802 games, starting 666. So, when I refer to games that they ultimately factored in the decision (a win or a loss), that decision was not necessarily derrived from a start.

http://imageshack.com/a/img908/1066/oIAITC.jpghttp://imageshack.com/a/img910/5181/s4a35E.jpg

Between 1900 and 1916, the New York Giants went 1,456-1,080, good for a .574 winning percentage during Mathewson's career. Mathewson went 372-188 with the Giants, giving him a .664 winning percentage. In games where Mathewson did not factor in the decision, the Giants were 1,084-892, a .549 winning percentage.

Between 1907 and 1927, the Washington Senators went 1,559-1,609, giving them a .492 winning percentage during Johnson's career. Johnson went 417-279 with the Senators, giving him a .599 winning percentage. In games where Johnson did not factor in the decision, the Senators were 1,142-1,330, a .462 winning percentage.

In games where neither Mathewson or Johnson factored in the decision, the Giants (.549) had a .087 better winning percentage than the Senators (.462). That's 8.7%. Over the course of a 155 game season, that means, on average, the Giants won about 14 (13.5) more games than the Senators. From one perspective, if the Senators had won 8.7% more starts when Walter Johnson played in Washington, Johnson would have won an additional 58 games (666 starts x 0.087 = 57.942).

A few more numbers to bounce around in our brains. I think all of these are accurate, though it's late.

The Giants had a .574 winning percentage in the Mathewson era, compared to a .664 winning percentage for Mathewson himself. Mathewson's personal winning percentage was .090, or 9% better than his team's. Mathewson win-loss record was responsible for a bump of .025, or 2.5% (.574 with Mathewson - .549 without Mathewson) to his team's overall win percentage.

The Senators had a .492 winning percentage in the Johnson era, compared to a .599 winning percentage for Johnson himself. Johnson's personal winning percentage was .107, or 10.7% better, than his team's. Johnson's win-loss record was responsible for a bump of .030, or 3.0% (.492 with Johnson - .462 without Johnson) to his team's overall win percentage.

The hypothesis that Walter Johnson would have won more games had he pitched in New York is a valid one, of course. Trying to accurately forecast just how many more games he might have won, though, is next to impossible. I do feel that Johnson could have been the second pitcher ever to win 500 games though.

Something to think about, anyway.

All that tells us that pitching in the AL sucked when Pedro was with Boston. Koufax pitched against Spahn, Gibson, Niekro, Marichal, Perry, Bunning, Jenkins, Carlton all hofers plus teammates Drysdale and Sutton.

Koufax's last 4 seasons ERA were 1.88, 1.74, 2.04, 1.73. Pedro only had two seasons in that range. Koufax won 25, 26 and 27 games in a season, Pedro's best was 23. Koufax pitched 11, 7, 8 and 5 shutouts, Pedro's best was 4. Koufax pitched 4 no hitters including a perfect game over 5 seasons. Koufax struck out 382 in a season, Pedro's best was 313. Koufax top 2 in MVP voting 3 times, Pedro 1. Koufax 2 WS MVP, Pedro 0. Koufax WS ERA .095. Pedro postseason ERA 3.46, WS ERA 3.71.

ERA+ is an overrated stat. It is too dependant on peers. Koufax was very tough to hit. His ERA would have been just as good during the steroid era. Hard hit balls against him were generally HRs, even without doping. Most players couldn't make solid contact. His road era was higher but Dodger Stadium was a fair park compared to tiny parks in many other NL cities.

I have trouble reading Denny's posts as well. I find Denny quite entertaining, but find it impossible to read his posts anymore because of the mixture of upper/lower case letters. His writing structure fits that of a poem, however when I start reading.....it is not a poem....just a confusing mixture of letters and shapes and symbols haha.

As an Orioles fan, I just want to toss out this little tidbit. The Baltimore Orioles have never been to a World Series without Jim Palmer on their staff.

Or that might tell us that pitching was king during that generation and there was a reason why rules had to be changed to restore the balance. The fact that Pedro Martinez thrived in the bandbox parks of the A.L. East with roided up batters and the DH is incredible. It's a testament to how great he was as a pitcher, not how terrible pitching was during that era. I can only imagine how 1990s A.L. pitchers like Martinez, Johnson and Mussina would have performed in those massive 1960s ballparks with a free out included!

The substance is more meaningful than the delivery, though I enjoy the delivery too. If possible, I would take every single person on this board being Denny (hi Denny), as then we would have the friendliest board on the internet. Some might not be able to read it :), but it would be the friendliest. And for the record, no one has ever been banned for being too nice. Denny is safe.

and back to topic, Johnson's numbers seem to put him at the top.....but there is a CY Young award for a reason.

Other than Maddux, I never saw any pitcher who got more batters to swing at balls off the plate than Pedro. Or who got more balls called as strikes.

Who's the greatest pitcher?
 

Cy Young is obviously an immortal pitcher with his 511 wins one of baseballs "unbreakable" records. However, his 2.63 lifetime ERA isn't remotely close to Matty's 2.13 and Johnson's 2.17 with both of these hurlers allowing a 1/2 run less than Young per nine innings. Young also amassed virtually half his victories in the 19th century, with 3 of those seasons pitching from 57 feet ( as opposed to 60.5 ft). Young's ERA exceeded 3.00 NINE TIMES during his 22 year "dead ball" era career including 5 seasons in a row during the 1890s. Matty only exceeded 3.00 once before his final season (discounting 3 games in his first season), and before 1920, Johnson had ZERO seasons above the 3.00 mark! Simply stated, Johnson and Matty were tougher to hit than Young and were the better pitchers.

Regarding Koufax, while I am a huge fan of his incredible 4-year run, it is believed by most that the Dodger Stadium rubber was nearly 20 inches high; 5 inches or 33% higher than the standard 15 inch mound during that era!!! That constitutes a ridiculous advantage for a pitcher to create a better downhill plane on nearly all of their pitches. Trying to hit his curveball at Dodger Stadium must have been like trying to eat soup wuth a fork! No wonder his road ERA exceeded 3.00, and this must be taken into account when determining his standing among all-time pitchers.

:D You took that quote from Willie Stargell.

Of the three mentioned in the original post, my vote goes to Walter.
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Runs per game were actually quite high in the 1890's; 2-3 runs per game (combined) higher than the dead ball era...and if Young pitched 3 seasons from 57 feet so did his opponents.

Second that. Have never met Denny in real-life but he's an old-timer on the board and has always, and I mean always, been a friendly, upbeat, no drama poster. To me his typography is a reflection of his passion for our hobby and his merry personality - I have absolutely no problem with it. (I have a much harder time wading through others' cringeworthy butchering of the mother tongue with the misspellings and impaired grammar and tortured syntax and the rest, which reminds me has anyone seen Barry Sloate lately?) Leon is correct: if everyone here was half as nice as Denny this place would be a friggin' love-in.

yes, height of mound!
 

Vintageclout brings up a point I have made before - the height of pitchers mound rubber - big huge advantage! I wonder how many no-hitters Ryan would have if he had pitched a decade earlier, whew!

Your definately right.

Smarty pants lawyer with yer fancy book-learnin'. Didn't they teach you no spelling at Harvard? It's write!

Johnson is credited with 417 wins. No one pitched in more 1-0 games.
He lost 26 games in which he allowed 1 run and that's not counting the
the 0-0 tie game against Jack Quinn when he allowed just two hits in 12
innings. With better run support, I think he wins 500. While Christy's
Plaque says, "Matty was the master of them all", the Big Train gets my vote.

The Greatest
 

Yes Peter! One of my favorite pitching quotes. Another favorite is Reggie Jackson's assessment of Tom Seaver right before Game 1 of the 1973 World Series to a reporter and I quote....."Tom Seaver is so good that blind people come out to the park to HEAR him pitch"!

The Greatest
 

God...imagine 6'10" Randy Johnson pitching off a 15" to 20" high rubber!!!

Yeah that was brilliant too. Another great tribute to a pitcher (I believe it's real) is when Norm Cash, the last batter up against Ryan in one of his no-hitters, came to the plate with a broom handle and told the catcher and umpire it would do him just as much good as a bat.

Then there is the immortal assessment of Lefty Grove, though by a writer not a player -- he could throw a lambchop past a wolf.

And speaking of Johnson, supposedly an anonymous batter complained to the umpire about called strike three, saying, it sounded low to me.

Bill, many thanks for providing the Giants and Senators team stats, especially the breakdowns as to how these teams fared with and without their star pitchers. The key interpretation I make from these stats is:

- The Giants winning % was 20.9% better when Matty was the pitcher of record (.664/.549 - 1).

- The Senators winning % was 29.7% better when WaJo was the pitcher of record (.599/.462 - 1).

The Greatest
 

All great quotes Peter! Love the Grove quote which actually starts out: "He's so fast...."

The award was named after Young because the first year it was designated was the year of Cy Young's death, hence the honor of naming it after him.

It's sort of Ironic that this would come at a time
when there seems to be very little
"Overboard Controversy" goin on here on the Net54!?
At least... as far as i can tell, imho & all that good stuff!

Howevar Tiny...
I certainly nevar meant to cause
Any headaches or Eye problems amongst the masses.

Wit that said, my Apologies go out
To those whom I've offended, even in the least!
Honestly, I come Here cause it's the Coolest Place on the Planet!!!
Baseball, the Playr's, They'r History,
& then ther's YOU GUYz!!!

Truthfully...
Way back... When I Started writing abstractly as a self rebellion
to somewhat touché towards the "Overboard Controversies" that just seem
To be popin up across Our Board,
I didn't mean too, however ~ As time went by...
I just kept writin like it to remind myself
That this Place is a Privilege, iT's NoT a RiGHT!

I Guess is was just to see if anyone really noticed...
As time went on & Wit All of the Hoopla goin on
Only one member evar mention'd it!?

Until THiS THRead HaPPeNeD...
Now that "All is Well Mayberry"
My Shift Key seems to be the Culprit ~ Actually iT's me!

Aftar seein the world the way it really is
Livin through the Cold War on a US Submarine,
& then Spendin sometime in Iraq & Afghanistan
& All Along Bein able to continue visitin my Dear Friends HERE!
(And I would like ta add, that this Place Really Help ta keep me
iN Touch wit What IT's Really ALL About!)
I can't begin ta tell You what a GRaND PLaCE THiS ReaLLy iS!!!

Sooo, my New Years Resolution!?
(1st time in 56 years of life that of done this!)

• Finish my E90-1 Set
• Gettin as far as i can wit puttin Matty & McGraw tagether from the sets that they're in
• "AND LEAVIN THE SHIFT KEY UNTOUCH'd"

My Sincere Apologies to Kevin fir Side Trackin His Thread...
Smashin one at that!!!
Also to Josh W., Ross, Don, Brendan & Fred
Fir makin my writin difficult fir You ta read...
I do Hope that we move positively forward from here on out...

& Josh B., i'm Glad You find me amusing... :)

Leon, Kevin, David & Peter...
Thank You All Evar So Kindly
Fir All of Your Kind Words... "Truly!!!"
&
i'm Very Please to know that
Leon decided Not ta Ban me!
Don't know which one of You Gents
Convinced Leon Not ta PuLL the RiP Cord
But i'm Grateful None the Less!

As Always my Friends...

"Life iS Grand"
DeNNY

PS Josh W. You my Friend Are a Net54 Celebrity!!!
I Don't Believe That We Have Another!?!?
Who Can Say That They Blasted One Off a Real MLB Pitcher...
"Very Cool iNDeed my Friend!!!"

Denny -

LeT's SeE hOw LoNg ThE NeW yEaR's ReSoLuTiOn LaStS :p

Bill,

Post #62 was great! Thanks for the stats.

Johnson.

And I agree with those citing Pedro or Koufax as among the all time greats.

Johnson

I'll stay with Matty....

They are greats but of course weren't choices in the survey from the original post.

I gotta say Walter Johnson, maybe the greatest ever.

If we were to open this topic up a bit at a later date to include modern pitchers, Greg Maddux and Pedro Martinez would be 1a and 1b at the top of my list. The more I look at Maddux's numbers, in particular, the more impressed I become.

4 Cy Young Awards
4 other top 5 Cy Young finishes
18 Gold Gloves

Since 1965, only Pedro Martinez' 291 ERA + beats the 271 ERA + Maddux put up in 1994, and the 260 ERA + Maddux put up in 2005.

The reason that Maddux blows my mind most of all is that, unlike Pedro, who had an overpowering fastball to go with his killer control, Maddux never had blazing heat. He achieved what he did with pinpoint accuracy and great ball movement, and made hitters look just foolish in the process.

I gotta be honest about Maddux, while totally great, I still think the umps made him much greater than he was. It seemed that every time he pitched, the strike zone got about 4-6 inches wider, away from the batter. Not only gave him extra strikes, but made the batter swing at bad pitches since he knew they were gonna be called strikes.

Comparison
 

What you are really doing is comparing Johnson and Mathewson to the rest of their teams pitchers. The record of the starting pitcher has nothing to do with the quality of the other pitchers on the staff, it has to do with the run support received. If Johnson received significantly less run support then Mathewson that would matter. If Johnson pitched on a staff that was considerably weaker then the staff that Mathewson pitched with that would not matter at all in comparing them.

I think Satchel Paige would do pretty well in this discussion thread.....

seriously?

Actually, the quality of the other pitchers on the staff have a real, though indirect effect on the record of a given starting pitchers' record:

The burden of being the team's ace is not only that you are almost always going against the opponents' best, which means, on average, less offensive support, but also starts frequently moved up to get more total starts.

Back in the 'day', ace starters would routinely pitch on two days rest and even one in extreme situations. Lesser pitchers' starts would be passed over to accommodate more starts by the ace - plus those same aces would always be available for relief appearances on their day or days of rest.

All this definitely impacts great pitchers' records, so for Someone like Johnson to do all he did is even more amazing.
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I totally agree with you: What separates Maddux from Pedro and visa versa is that extra weapon Pedro possessed.

The double-edge to that sword of velocity was that it took more out of Pedro and led to shorter starts, while Maddux would just adjust his approach ever so slightly and last longer.

Either way, I felt honored to get to watch their artistry - it was really something to behold!
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Such a comparison would never be fair as Satchel's prime career stats are lost to history.

I would love to have more exposure to his stats and less to bonds and clemens.
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+1

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/hKAFZaPm0nsRb1AwuK31H3Y2VLgy2RG_a1rPg51wK6M?feat=e mbedwebsite"><img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-52thiNu_iyI/VSM0Bk5rakI/AAAAAAAAmLY/veTRWpqdZU4/s800-Ic42/IMG_0001.jpg" height="800" width="420" /></a>

In my opinion the greatest starting pitcher of all time was Walter Johnson.

Greatest pitcher inning to inning: Mariano Rivera.