So, after I kicked your ass, you now advocate for a poll? You are the epitome of a defense lawyer. :)

You impressed no one but yourself, and the poll would just confirm that. :cool:

So would this proposed poll consist of knowledgeable voters or guys like you? :)

These discussions are always interesting, especially when they involve pitchers.

One thing I've never seen taken into account with stats is how the manager handles pitchers.
I'd have to do a ton of work to put it into stats, maybe I will eventually.

The example that comes to mind is Mike Torrez. He was fairly consistent stats wise, usually around 16-13 for wins and an ERA that varied a bit. Lifetime 3.96.
Do NOT think I'm making a case for Torrez as a HOFer. ! I'm just using him as an example.

But while he was with the Red Sox, he was under Don Zimmer. I recall there being a lot of games especially late in 78 where Zimmer left him in even though the pattern of coming totally off the rails somewhere between the 5th and 7th inning was painfully obvious. So bad that I refered to him as "the Yankee spy" And by left in, I mean Zimmer didn't even have someone warmed up, so when he started say the sixth with a walk, a single a double and a homer before they even got a reliever up that was pretty poor managing.

Where would he be if he hadn't been left in?
Probably a lot better than his stats show.

That always makes me wonder about pitchers from other eras, or for modern ones what the manager was like.
The catcher I think can also make a difference.


Steve B

Bucky Dent's 3 run homer was in the 7th inning if memory serves.

It was. Thanks for reminding me.

To be fair, Bob Stanley who I liked as a player gave up a double that inning allowing another run, then a HR in the 8th before being pulled. So two hard hits in three at bats. (Pinella hit a fly to right as well, I don't recall how hard it was hit) sure, it was Munson and Jackson getting the hits, but that's not a good outing. Especially on a few days rest.


Steve B

Stanley made up for it in 86. :D