And we will never know as so many records were destroyed by them. I believe that makes my solution more equitable. It's something ..

It certainly would be interesting to know why the prosecution, with all the leverage it must have had, agreed to a deal with no money.

Man all I got from Mastro recently was junk wax boxes from the 1990s..where do I send the sentencing recommendation too again?

I'm lost. Are you two discussing a fantasy restitution plan which will never be implemented?

Pretty much ...

To some extent, but I am also pointing out that without seeing bidding records it's difficult to know if one was shill bid or not, and thus entitled to restitution (or for that matter to tell a judge how much one was hurt).

agreed...I bid on and won...1...high dollar card that may/may not have been shilled...but how can I know?

Right, that's my point. Obviously if you bid on dozens of items over the years and paid record prices it's a fair inference, but for most people they would seem to have no way of knowing.

What about the lots in which the fraud is easily determined? Countless numbers of lots in which Bill/Mastro were the first underbidders? Are those also impossible to determine loss amount? Why no restitution for even those victims?

Again, this thread is not to rub our temples and discuss fantasy restitution scenarios which will not only have zero chance of coming to fruition but will not even be presented to the judge --- unless you actually write a letter to the judge.

Thanks for continuing to support my case :).

And how does a member of the public not privy to the bidding records know which lots these were?

I asked you before, you tell us why no restitution if the prosecution had all that leverage such that Mastro would not have gone to trial?

Return the gift/bribe and I'll support it even more.:D

Dear Judge Guzman, I have no access to bidding records and no way to know if I personally was harmed or not, or to what extent if I was, but shill bidding is a really really bad thing and I've heard it was pretty extensive here, so throw the book at that bastard Mastro please.:)

There is a Mandatory Victim Restitution Act (18 USC sec. 3663A (c)(3) which holds that:

"This section shall not apply in the case of an offense described in paragraph (1)(A)(ii) if the court finds, from facts on the record, that—
(A) the number of identifiable victims is so large as to make restitution impracticable; or
(B) determining complex issues of fact related to the cause or amount of the victim’s losses would complicate or prolong the sentencing process to a degree that the need to provide restitution to any victim is outweighed by the burden on the sentencing process."

This is the reason why restitution was not ordered (and it is noted in the cooperation agreement); however, it doesn't explain why the government did not even attempt to get any forfeiture money from Mastro.

Thankfully, I have had no dealings with our criminal justice system. Common sense dictates that compensating the wronged parties financially in some fashion should come first. I have no idea whether I was shilled in a Mastro Auction or not. However, it seems that, in this case, requiring Mastro to pay monetarily in some way would be required. To take Leon's point, it makes more sense to give all bidders something than everyone nothing. Saying that determining exactly who was shilled and how much they were shilled is too difficult a task shouldn't be the final answer. Justice is not being served.

Hey Pete, in the time it takes to pontificate on Net 54 about imaginary restitution plans you could go to PACER, print out Mastro's cooperation agreement and count the 59 times or so in which he admitted committing fraud during his auctions. Whether you know for certain if you're a victim or not (you were) it doesn't change what Mastro did to the hobby, does not change how inflated prices on cards from his auctions affect future prices on cards the rest of us will be buying.

Well it's unfortunate they didn't but I assume they had reasons for the judgment call.

Date? Looking at the docket but don't see it.

Oh wait I found it. I've read it before, this is the one where the government puts the loss at between 400k and 1M right?

Oct 10, 2013

Right, I've read it before, no doubt some very bad stuff in there. My point is simply that except for a few specific items that are named there, there isn't enough to know whether one was shilled. He admits to shilling "more than 50" lots I think but in the context of all those auctions that doesn't really give an indication of scope.

There's language which describes shill bidding by Mastro on a frequent, auction-wide level. Just because parts of the agreement reference specific lots or victims does not mean his fraud was limited to them.

As for not knowing specifically whether one was shilled, so what? If you bid in his auctions you were most likely shilled. If you buy a card in the future which has an artificially high price due to the fraud in Mastro's auctions, you are a victim. And you can write to the judge without knowing specifically if you were defrauded by Mastro especially since the Mastro defendants destroyed bidding records.

I don't think I could top the letter from the psychologist diagnosing him with Narcissistic Personality Disorder with Antisocial Features.

I think you and Jeff are talking about two completely different types of letters.

Are you referring to a letter which speaks positively about Mastro, which you would write after restitution and an apology?

Jeff is referring to writing a letter now, to the judge, explaining how you and/or the hobby were damaged by Mastro's fraudulent activities. These letters may be critical to send now, before sentencing, since it appears Bill will get off without having to pay any restitution as it now stands.

Yes, Bill isn't sending any gifts to collectors for a letter to the judge which tell the truth about him. He's hoping for either a positive letter or no letter at all. Certainly not the truth.

I AM going to write a letter tonight...and I urge anyone who has bid in one of his auctions to do so as well.

The paragraph in the Doug Allen plea agreement about the altered PSA 6 T206 Plank -- which he sent to a card doctor in California for a new back and then on to be graded -- should make people nervous on a number of levels. But most likely it won't, because we don't want to deal with reality.

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...entoryid=35826

Despicable: "This scarcer-backed version of the sought-after card (with a "Sweet Caporal - 350 subjects" advertisement adorning the reverse instead of the more routine "150" variety) boasts wonderful clarity in its back's discreet red inking and perfectly toned surround."

Screenshot part 1.

And 2.

And there you have it.

That is one of the most damning things I have seen so far. And it is my understanding, according to the plea agreement, that Doug admitted guilt. I am just shaking my head.....

I've always said the church could learn a lot from this hobby. I've never seen a larger collection of more forgiving people.

Gives you a lot of confidence in graded cards, doesn't it, when they slab a trimmed Wagner and a rebacked Plank, cards obviously deserving of a far more exacting review than most.

Mastro's actions were just as bad if not significantly worse. You should cut the crap and write a letter to the judge explaining how badly they have both damaged the hobby. You're the owner of this board and a leading voice in the hobby. "Leading" is what leaders do. Mastro sent you a gift/bribe for a reason -- because he wanted your help with a positive letter to the court. Can you actually say with a straight face that this man deserves a letter praising him to the judge? Can you actually say with a straight face that the judge doesn't deserve to hear the truth about Mastro and the true extent of his fraud on our hobby?

Lastly, he could have agreed to restitution to his victims -- all of the people who were defrauded in his auctions. And he didn't.

+1

I think more willfully blind than forgiving. A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, as the song goes.

You can ask that your letter not be publicly docketed and just provided to the parties instead.

And Pete Nash is going to rip you or not rip you regardless of what you do here. And honestly, Leon, I wouldn't be surprised if he gives you hell for this thread alone.

At the risk of appearing to be a bit green, do people here think TPGs simply missed this alteration (and the others) because it was so good or is there likely to have been someone at the TPG who was on the take?

I think he was being sarcastic.

Yes, Mastro altered an even more expensive card, but I doubt that's the point you are trying to make.

How the heck did that T206 Plank even pass the authenticating company with an altered back? Was that PSA? Shouldn't they be held responsible in some way? Apparently they didn't do there job or even know what there doing. Or were they in bed together? Boy alot of questions need to be answered.

Perhaps but it's true. In the name of stuff people forgive almost anything.

Mastro and Allen are no longer selling cards. There is no reason to keep your mouth shut in exchange for buying their cards.

I have no idea in this case, but there are people out there who are very skilled in this sort of work, and remember PSA is not the FBI.

Lethal injection and/or restitution!

Anyone want to guess at the odds of Allen and/or Theotikis showing up in Chicago next month?

With respect to Peter's suggestion that its difficult to write a letter if you don't know that you've been defrauded (in part because Mastro destroyed bidding records), isn't concealment sort of the quintessential essence of fraud? Concealment, non-disclosure, false representation, deceit. Failure to disclose material facts when you have a duty to speak is fraud. Half-truths can be fraud, because there is a duty to tell the actual truth, not part of it. I don't know that I would suggest he was a fiduciary, but he damn sure told people that they could submit max bids and that those bids would be held in confidence and not utilized unless/until another bidder (who I think most people would have fairly inferred was not the auction house) topped the existing bid. That apparently didn't happen on a relatively frequent basis.

Also, at least where I'm from, destruction of relevant evidence in and of itself creates an inference that the evidence which was destroyed would have been adverse to the party who destroyed it. The fact that occurred is fairly damning IMO, and is indicative of fraud and shilling on a far more widespread basis than indicated in the plea agreement IMO.

Even apart from the damage to the hobby and the fact that people are most likely paying inflated prices due to the shilling of cards someone else was unfortunate enough to win, I think there is plenty of reason for everyone who bid in Mastro's auctions to assert that they were likely defrauded. I guess I also need to write a letter....

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

I personally don't want to write a letter in circumstances where I have no strong basis to believe I am a direct victim. That doesn't make me lazy, and I don't see why I have a duty. I could make the same argument about any crime that affects people broadly. Should I write letters every time some financial fraudster is sentenced? It certainly COULD have affected me in some way.

That's your prerogative Peter. I won my former m101-6 ruth from legendary in aug 12'...and there's a chance I was shilled.

A handful of auction houses have admitted to shill bidding in the past...in addition to the nonsense on ebay...chances are you've won a card from one of these houses I'd bet!

If you don't think Bill Mastro should be able to walk away from this virtually scott free without paying retribution or doing serious time...DON'T DO ANYTHING.

If you think he should pay a price for his indiscretions...maybe be made an example of...write a letter.