I don't think it's "killing the hobby"-- that was an over the top question--, but it does help explain why there are fewer auctions and more BINS on eBay. Bidders like the lower prices caused by snipe auctions, but sellers don't. Sniping is also why sellers will more often these days end auctions early to accept an offers.

Realize that eBay may some day realize that snipe bids costs them money and add a 5 minute (or similar) rule. It may not be a repetitively resetting clock as with the big auction houses, but perhaps just a one time five or ten minutes added on when there's a last millisecond snipe bid to give the other other bidders chances to place one last additional bid. As someone in this thread said, he's surprised they hasn't already done it.

Two weeks ago I had an amusing, but fortunate, snipe incident. I usually place auto snipes on about half the items I bid on, and the other half I manually snipe if I am not sure on the amount I want to bid and if I know I am going to be around to watch the auction end.

There was an item that I really really wanted that I figured would go for around $50. For whatever reason I didn’t choose to auto snipe and planned to just be around and watch the end and place a last second bid. My bid was going to be $111.11 just to place some odd amount, that we all often do. I figured that amount should win it because it was an odd item in my niche which I figured wouldn’t attract much interest.

As I watched the end of the auction with about 4 mins to go, I noticed my internet connection was getting really slow and spotty. The current high bid was about $25. Fearing my internet was slow, I placed my bid at about 40 seconds left…and wouldn’t you know the max bid for the current high bidder was also $111.11, but he had bid first so I was still losing. Go figure. Since I had placed it with 40 seconds left, I had time to nudge it up, and I won the item. If I had placed my auto snipe with the amount I figured would be enough to win, or waited to the last second to manually bid, I would have lost. That’s called dumb luck. :rolleyes:

yeah but if you were willing to pay more than the 111.11, why didnt you place a higher bid instead of 111.11, why not place the highest bid you are willing to bid and not a penny more and be done with it?

figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more than that even if someone twisted your arm, then you will never have regrets and dont have to go through the 'snipe exercise'.

eBay tried the extended bid policy several years ago and if failed miserably for good reason.

Fair question Travis - but you make it sound so easy...”figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. David addressed it well in post #48. I thought $111.11 was my highest and would easily win the item. Given the opportunity to bid another $1, I did. Since we were tied I knew the next increment would/could win it. I only bid the next minimum increment. Would I have gone to $120?...NO. I had the opportunity to get the item for another small increment and I decided to do it. Most people would…even you I bet.

Think of every item you have lost on ebay that you really wanted….now, think of this…after each time you lost someone tells you you can win it if you pay another $1. Would you say no?? Bullshit – of course you wouldn’t. You would throw in another $1 much of the time, going over “the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. If you say you wouldn’t then I think you are lieing to yourself.

It’s all emotions, the thrill of the chase, yada yada yada…it happens to ALL of us.

Human nature:

Alice: "I just baked thus plate of chocolate chip cookies. Do you want one?"
John: "Thank you, but no. I'm on a diet and am not eating sweets."
Alice: "Are you sure?"
John: "No, but thank you."
Alice: "Just have one. One won't kill your diet."
John: "No. Definitely no. I promised myself I'd stick to my diet."
Alice: "Last chance.
John: "No . . . Okay, but just one."
Alice: "Okay. Here you go. Don't worry, one cookie won't ruin your diet."
John: "Aw what the Hell. Might as well make it two . . . No three."

As for human nature, I prefer :

MAITRE D: And finally, monsieur, a wafer-thin mint.

MR. CREOSOTE: Nah.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir, it's only a tiny, little, thin one.

MR. CREOSOTE: No. Fuck off. I'm full.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir. Hmm?

MR. CREOSOTE: [groan]

MAITRE D: It's only wafer thin.

MR. CREOSOTE: Look. I couldn't eat another thing. I'm absolutely stuffed. Bugger off.

MAITRE D: Oh, sir, just-- just one.

MR. CREOSOTE: [groaning] All right. Just one.

I'm sitting here cracking up, and my wife is asking me what I am laughing at.:p. I'm a big Monty Python fan.

You are assuming everyone is logical. A snipe is usually a more thought-out, logical maximum bid. People who do not snipe are often caught up in their emotions, changing their mind when they are outbid and bidding above what was supposed to be their max.

But if you had to place a snipe for the maximum number of cookies you would eat, and then live with that decision because the cookies would be gone anyway, then you would only eat one...or maybe none.

it is easy, you are making it way too hard. when you make your initial bid, think about the max you are willing to pay, then think about what would happen if someone else wins it for 1 dollar more, and how you would have been willing to pay another 1 dollar more than that. Then you have NOT thought about your max bid, think about this process happening over and over and over again, and think about the highest, most ridiculous price being bid for this card, to the point where you say "that's enough, i just wont pay 1 more penny"

Then, and ONLY then, have you come to your max bid in your own mind. put that price down at the beginning of the auction and you don't have to worry about anything. There is always someone that might bid another dollar, it doesnt mean HIS max bid was only 1 dollar more than yours, you dont know how much more he might have ridiculously bid in order to win the item. I think people have regrets when they see that someone else got the item for only 1 dollar more than their max bid, but in reality the other guys max bid might have been way higher than yours.

So you don't have to sweat it, just think about the amount you would be willing to pay and not 1 penny more even if someone had a gun to your head, so to speak. It IS that easy, It's not hard.

right..eventually there is a max price you are willing to pay...when someone wants you to pay and says cmon its only 'only 1 dollar more' then bidding would go on forever if everyone had that philosophy..eventually there is no more '1 dollar more' that's worth it..

Yes, eventually there is a max price you are willing to pay, of course there is, but everyone finds it that easy to lock in their max price up front?? Maybe it’s just me…(my wife says I am too emotional :o).

In Theory, Travis, I hear what you are saying. I suppose MY problem is determining exactly the highest amount I am willing to pay or the “that’s enough not 1 penny more” point as you have described. BUT maybe that is just me and most everyone else finds that as EASY as you describe it. I admit I am flawed – call me human. My recent experience that I described is unique and specific (its not always as clear as $1 more will win it). Do you think I should have not bid the extra $1? (BTW - I am looking at the item now on my desk and really glad I won it).

But let me ask you this again? You go through your thought process to come up with your highest amount, following the steps you described for an item you really want. You’re perfect so you know you have confidently figured out your highest amount, because it is an exact science they way you described it. You snipe your bid and are losing but realize if you bid 1 penny more you would win it…would you bid the extra penny? You don’t have to answer because I am sure your response would be your bid would have already thought about that penny.

How many people out there have set a snipe bid and change/raised it at some point?

Edited to add: BTW, Travis, please don’t take my sarcasm as criticism, just provocative to stir the debate. It’s a good discussion, and honestly you do make a point and I am going to try to apply that in the future.

I was just watching this on HBO a couple of nights ago. One of the funniest and grossest scenes in movie history.

I "get" both sides of the argument and, yes Joe, you did have a unique circumstance where you knew $1 more would win it. That said, I may NOT have bid that extra buck because most times I'm thinking "Please, don't take my max bid to win!"

Case in point was a pinback I just won for $17.50 but had a $101.01 snipe on. Yes, I wanted it but it's probably not a $100 pin.

Rob – That’s a good point. I too often place snipe bids hoping/praying it doesn’t take that max bid. In your example, that would be like me placing a $125 max bid on the $111.11 item (I previously said I won’t even go as high as $120) and hoping it wouldn’t go that high. If I place a max bid that possibly exceeds that value that I even place on the item – but place that bid to be extra extra extra sure I win it - I too wouldn’t go any higher. BUT, in my example no way was I going to lose placing a matching high bid, but still losing out - that just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.:o

That "early bid" scenario is still flawed. If you plop down your highest bid early in the game, you are giving competing bidders much more time to act upon it. Why reveal your hand so early? There is absolutely no competitive advantage to doing so. You are just giving the "competition" an increased ability to top you.

Another problem is for those of us with "finite" budgets. If I win something unexpectedly early in the week, I may have less money to spend on the auction in question. No problem... I just reduce (or cancel) the snipe amount. It takes all of 15 seconds. Same holds true if a Catalogue comes in the mail that week.. and the eBay item subsequently loses some of its lustre.

I've changed snipe amounts as many as 6 times per week... and really don't think it's contributed towards killing the hobby! ;)

I've always sniped to prevent other people from outbidding me, but also because I don't want to be locked in to paying a certain amount for an item six days before the auction ends. I like having the flexibility of being able to lower or cancel my bid in case something in better shape/higher up on my wantlist/cheaper comes along.

Makes complete sense for buyers to snipe. Most of us agree on that. However, the lifeline of our hobby is the steady infusion of high quality material into the market - which clearly has either dried up, listed with an insane BIN, and/or moved to other auction sites. If snipe bidding isn't causing this shift, than what is?

Curious what the sellers on this forum think.

I feel like this has been asked and answered already. Perezfan and others brought up great points, plus I feel sellers have become more sensitive to price, with great awareness of market value, and do not wish to give items away below market value with a crap shoot regular ebay auction.

I don't think there is a lack or decrease of high quality stuff being sold. I think there is just less of it on ebay. I think the biggest reason is that small sellers would rather wait on getting paid by a large auction house than deal with the hassle that ebay has become for all but the largest sellers.

I think the fact that less is on ebay and more in AH's has led to more people no longer putting in the search time on ebay and just waiting for the AHs to come around. This has led to lower final prices on ebay and more people just using BIN with BO and waiting for the right offer to come around.

Some people would say I don't deal in "high quality stuff" to begin with since I concentrate on a team that has only been around for 57 years. Whatever you call the stuff I collect, I can't even find rare or unusual stuff very often on ebay anymore. 99% of what I see is either less than 10 years old or extremely common. I do my 50+ searches once every six days and I more often than not find nothing I want to bid on. I'll watch items I already have but usually only find maybe two items a month to bid on. :(

I'm thinking maybe the rare and unusual stuff you're looking for went into personal collections. Personally, I'm planning on keeping all my stuff until I kick the bucket, at which point my kids may or may not sell, so what I have won't hit the market for several decades at least. Maybe it's the same thing at work here.

Rob,
You are absolutely correct. "high quality Stuff" is a relative term. A rare SF pin may be a holy grail to you, but not to me. I meant no disrespect to anything anyone collects.
My point is that sniping isn't the reason stuff doesn't seem to be as commonly found on ebay. I think your situation is a little different than my example. Your SF collection is so advanced that the things you needs are going to be really really rare. Even if they aren't super expensive, the likely hood of you finding these things is small regardless. 20yrs ago, when ebay first started, I would be willing to bet,you had a much larger want list then than now. It stands to reason the more advance a collector or collection the slower it can be added to.

Not to hijack this thread because it is about sniping, but what Mark just said is also true of The National. Although I still love going to The National, the buying experience is not as fertile for finding items on my want list simply because the list is getting much shorter as my collection becomes more and more advanced.
Just sayin'...

Still, you never know what you might find...
The thrill is still in the hunt! ;) :D

This has ended up being a very good thread, BTW

Aren't their some items you need for your collections that the amount you would be willing to pay is $10-20 more than anyone else? Not to sound arrogant but there are just certain pieces we need that are worth overpaying for.

I know a few collectors who snipe $2000-4000 on every item, even ones which are worth only a few hundred dollars. Why? Because they are playing a game of Russian roulette that you won't be as crazy as them. This ensures they get that piece by paying $10-20 more than you. They can get away with that only because of the hard-ending.

Some of the reasons given above for snipe bidding should apply to auctions with a soft-ending too. Yet action on auctions with a soft-ending is much better throughout the listing period. Take a look at the current Leland’s auction. Why the difference? As a seller, which style would you have more confidence in?

1) ...and, they can get away with that too because of very deep pockets and can afford to exceed the market and not worry if they overpay or if auction gets out of control and starts to approach their max. I would only do that if my "Holy Grail" popped up, otherwise my pockets 'aint that deep and my "stones" 'aint that big.

2) ...many people place bids on soft-ending auctions at AHs to get in on the extended bidding. They are still usually not showing their true hand but placing a minimal increment bid that they would happily win the lot at if it were to hold up. It's a minimal place holder bid.

What Joe just said above is very true in both cases.

1) Those people who bid $2000-$4000 even on a few hundred dollar item are playing, what could be, a very expensive game of Russian Roulette. What happens if 5 items, ending around the same time, all valued at $400 wind up close to their max for one reason or another? Are they going to be happy shelling out $10K min for items worth $2K? I doubt it, but if they have the money to waste, good for them.
Here is a personal story regarding this situation. I was bidding on a 1934 Signed Goudey of KiKi Cuyler, a few years ago, I figured it was going to take around $1200-1400 to win it. I bid a little early and was winning at $1200 with 2min to go. All of a sudden I am second. I was the only person who bid again up until the end and I bid 4 more times to take the price up to $1960. I just couldn't let myself go higher and lost it. The person who won it, must've been like your friends, set a really high bid to make sure he won. Do you really think he thought it was going to go for $1960? I doubt it, but he took a chance. The best part for me is that I won a better quality Cuyler signed card about 6months later for $400 less.

2) You must bid early in soft ending AHs so that you can bid in the extended bidding time period. I find it's better to bid early on those, so you don't accidentally miss the time

None taken..it didn't even cross my mind.

Very good points. When I started with ebay in 1998, I was like a kid in a candy store. I'm sure I bought stuff back then that I would pass up now. That said, I did acquire some really good stuff in the early days...stuff I haven't seen since.

Back to topic...sniping MAY have a small part in ebay "drying up." Prices realized probably are a bit lower in that the "dammit! you're NOT going to beat me" bids have become more rare.

3 things to remember:

There's always someone who has more money to spend for a specific auction item.

The item you really want will be in another auction very soon, perhaps a few weeks or a few months.

As Tom Cruise in the movie Risky Business said, "Sometimes you gotta say...."

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...atdrink004.gif

There are 3.5 million items on eBay under the 'Sports Memorabilia, Cards and Fan Shop' category, yet only 101k are auctions. That means 98% of all sports memorabilia listed on eBay are BIN. Hard-endings is a primary reason for this shift.

Regarding AH action, almost all require a bid 24 hours before the soft-ending. That doesn't explain the action 2-3 weeks beforehand.

I think that action might just be a number of bidders getting their initial bids in combined with a few people who may try to bid big at the beginning to try and scare everyone off.

The one thing about being outbid by a dollar and not knowing exactly what exact dollar you will bid up too isn't a big deal when there will be the same type card up for auction again.....if its one of kind that's one thing but most things are ebay you can find again eventually...so losing out on a dollar isn't a big deal when can bid again on the same type of item again and maybe even get for less...or if lose..can then bid a few months later.....theres always another auction.....so don't worry about a margin of error in to what exact high dollar you were willing to offer.....you will have the opportunity to bid at another auction...heck I see 'winners' of a card try to resell the same exact card again which then sells for less at that auction (cause the former 'winner' isn't bidding on it anymore ) plus ebay fees they have to pay..

That makes a lot of sense Jake, agreed. In my case the memorabilia item was pretty much one of a kind, in that I had never seen it in twenty years of collecting, and wouldn't expect to ever see it again. If it is a commodity like a card, or a mass produced memorabilia item, then totally agree with what you are saying.

right well if you want something bad and its something that comes up one time in 20 years..than there really isn't a market price......

I routinely snipe as it prevents me from getting shilled. Generally works and if it doesn't work, the person that outsnipes me pays a higher price. The key is not to set your bid any higher than what you are actually willing to pay for an item.

Recently was after a common for my W572 set. Bid on a card that was worth around $70. I really wanted the card but could not be by a computer so bid $125.00 as my highest bid. Somebody sniped the card but he paid dearly for it at $127.50. Now if could have been lurking in the shadows, I could have bid with 3 seconds left and probably would have got the card at a semi reasonable price.

The point is that sniping has it's place and the element of suprise can get you an item at a lower price and if you do not win, it will cost your competition $$$.

I don't know about you but I get about as much joy as winning an item for a price that was in market price range but the low range as I do getting 'outbid' and that bid puts the sale above the high end of the market range..

A spalding first basement trophy went for $5770 today. The price rose $2770 in the last 2 seconds

I was the direct underbidder and was shocked to lose it by that big of another snipe.

While this may seem off topic, it's not...

One of the reasons cited for the decrease of quality memorabilia on eBay is that much of it is now mired in advanced collections. These collectors are not willing to part with "the good stuff" and have no interest in flipping it. The increasing scarcity is what causes the higher prices... not sniping. It's a simple case of demand exceeding the available supply.

Spalding Trophies (while always rare/desirable) used to turn up routinely in the catalog auctions, at the National, and on eBay. The one that closed today was the first one in what seemed like an eternity. These spectacular trophies have simply dried up, and because of that, the prices rise.

Conversely, some things that were previously thought to be rare (Stanford Pottery, certain Bobbleheads, 1940s Split-Finger Gloves) have proven to be fairly common. So those prices have dropped. It's simple supply and demand. The Spalding probably would've climbed even higher if sniping wasn't an option.

As Mark V. stated earlier, I bid a minimal bid weeks in advance so that I don't forget. Usually by the time the auction comes to the final day I lose interest in most items I bid on. For Hunts online, for example, on the opening days I place a low bid on dozens of items sometimes, and they never ever hold up, but I do it so that I dont foget. Most items I lose interest in.

Bob, Mark made an interesting point that the trophy may have climbed higher if sniping wasn't an option. Would you have gone higher if you were outbid earlier?

With prices like these I wonder if we'll start to see more of these trophies pried away from collections.

Prices
 

Possibly, had I been in a bidding war at night, common sense may have prevailed and I not go that high. In retrospect, I am glad I did not win and pay that much for a trophy that generally sells in the $3500 range. This may have been the case where snipes actually helped an auction out?

Sniping is just another method of bidding strategy. Sometimes you win and the price is good for the buyer and bad for the seller and sometimes vice versa. I do not think sniping is bad for the hobby as prices and bidding always find there market value generally speaking.

Personally I believe nothing is killing the hobby. I have seen prices do nothing but rise across the board. Photos? Ad Pieces? Pennants? You name it, quality stuff always will be in demand. Just my two cents

It could say that many things are wrecking eBay, but not the hobby itself. Though eBay used to be a major venue.

Just depends on if you think eBay is/was vital to our hobby. 10-15 years ago the pieces that were coming up for auction on eBay was simply amazing. EBay made our hobby accessible to everyone, even the non-collector. People who didn't have a clue about sports memorabilia were listing items daily. Collectors didn't need to look elsewhere for quality pieces. I think we can all agree those golden days are gone.

EBay is now a huge dumping ground, with a rare diamond in a sea of turds. With 98% of sports memorabilia listed at a fixed price eBay's auctions (and snipe bids) have become irrelevant to the hobby. Either the pieces have dried up (which seems the majority opinion here) or sellers have just abandoned eBay auctions (my hopeful opinion).

well I don't think its good for the people who 'didn't have a clue' were selling in the old days...sounds like they were getting a raw deal...if it means now that the sellers now are getting fair prices I don't think its bad that sellers aren't getting ripped off....and im a buyer mostly..

Not sure what your agenda is, but you seem to have a lot of hatred toward ebay - albeit much of it I agree is justified. You make good points, but for me ebay auctions are far from being irrelevant to my hobby/collection. It certainly is harder to search and find items, and requires more patience, but I am still purchasing many items on eBay through auctions. Maybe not all gems, and mostly smalls, but still adding valued items to my collection. It seems many people on here are continuously posting some quality items that they picked up on eBay. Golden Days gone? Yes. Irrelevant to the hobby? No, not in my opinion, at least for my hobby.

plus how many people here on B/S/T who are pretty knowledgeable collectors with nice wares inevitably say 'sent to ebay' and post the link........seems like good as ever..

No agenda, just a discussion on the hobby. I would prefer a shift from AH listings (with 30-40% buyers premiums) back to eBay auctions.