Glyn, that is well-stated. 'Market value' is a tough concept for most collectors.

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Another way to look at it is that rare baseball cards are not commodities, in the classical economics sense. Because of a niche market, auction and any sale prices are "skeptible" as well. Your best indicator as to current value is trends (as we all probably realize). The longer the trend, the more reasonably accurate. Where that falls short is near the change point of a trend.

That being said... it also seems that there are those trying to justify prices based on "staying in business" rather than considering the possibility that supply is up or demand is down within the niche market (among other things). It is very probably that you will not see ANY profit on certain cards and even remotely possible that you won't see any profit on ANY cards. There are many ways to go out of business.

Keep in mind that even "museum" pieces will probably sell some day. Maybe for the crazy 100% asking price, maybe the seller making the deal for the reasonable 50% off, or maybe the seller's heirs taking pennies on the dollar after the seller's gone.

The only true value of a card is what it sold for on that particular day. Anything beyond that is mere speculation on the behalf of the buyer or the seller.

I know this a post-war card, but I had to show it. A 1960 common--as common as can be--that keeps being put up by this same seller. How do you not laugh when you see it????!!!!

The BIN is $13 for a card you can find a thousand of for two bucks or less in an ebay search. $13!!!!!!!!!!! Plus…here's where it gets great…$7 for shipping!!!!! Seven frickin' bucks to ship this useless card. Oh, and did I mention there is writing/typing all over it??? $20 for a card you can pick up in any brick and mortar shop for less than a buck and he continues to list it time and time again and refuses to respond to my questions asking, "Why??"

Attachment 165608

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Topps-D...item35de3341ab

He's already said why.

1960 Topps Dave Philley Philadelphia Phillies #52 Baseball Card

Sharp, Great Color, Good Corners, Great Collectiable, A Great Investiment

Card in Good Shape No refunds, no international ship.

Compared at $80.00 Our Price $10.00 plus s/h

“There’s wholesale, there’s retail, and there’s fairytale”

Price is truth

Ie

1. If you list an item on ebay with a 7 day auction you are more likely to gain a higher realized price than a 3 day auction

2. If you use rea you are more likely to gain a higher realized price than a local auctionzip listing.

3. If you list an auction with no reserve and there is a duration there is varying odds as to how many interested parties will engage in bidding

In all cases the price accurately reflects the market

Houses in 2007 sold for crazy money. Houses in 2011 sold for next to nothing. Both were accurate reflections of the markets. Like Henry Hazlitt said Americans are like Dr Jekyll and mr Hyde. We want the best deals as consumers and the highest prices as producers. I accept that in selling my cards that I have never sold for a "low price" or "high price". Only that I sold cards which reflected whatever the particular market I sold them in performed at at that time.


But I do agree that some people are just listing cards where no market will ever support them.

auction
 

right i not saying, 1 auction on ebay for a week is market price...but if you look at say 7 auction results over a 7 week period...factor in the highs and the lows and you can average out a market price

the fact that you can say that the auction prices are not market price as a whole is laughable as ebay is a true market....its the dealers who are asking for an amount over market are the same ones that say REA and ebay auction prices on average are not market price....

in fact you can argue that if theres is only 1 or 2 bidders over a certain amount of money that market price is lower than what the card sold for because the winning bidder may no longer be a competeting bidder...if you see 5 or so bids over a certain amount than you know that certain amount in which the 5 or so unique bidders bid above is a safe baseline market....

thats why buy it now prices are terrible indicators of market price......

there you go again
 

how can you say an REA lot that caters to the group that buys the cards and understands the nuances of card collecting sells some lots 'for less than full value'

thats like the people who say 'couldnt sell my house' they mean to say 'couldnt sell my house at market value'

i not sure what 'full value' is when you cant sell it a huge auction house with months of people viewing it....

the other issue with cards is we all know there are inherit problems with value down the line....gold is likely to keep its value 30 years from now more than cards..... so cards is the one thing that i wouldnt use the analogy like works of art to say 'everything sells eventually'...sells yes..but sells at prices that go over market value as determined by multiple auctions...we shall see

One more thing about market price
 

Why is it if auctions houses and ebay are far lower than market price are the majority of major profit from card dealers are from direct buy purchases from individuals....why arent the majority of the profit made from cards from purchases made on ebay and REA and resold at a an easy market value profit if ebay and rea are so routinely below market..should be real easy to make easy profit there?

maybe i am wrong and most profit is made on buying on ebay on bad auctions prices and circumstances (the 3 day auction versus 7 day auction for example)

but i think when buying in person and in bulk you will get a better deal on then you would on ebay/rea auctions...so my point being that ebay/rea are still in that 'retail' price world even during auctions that have been argued in this thread as to be much lower than the real value. Thus, they got to be close to market price because in most cases you cant just turn around and make a profit like you can in direct buys from individuals off ebay and auction house land...

but again i am not a dealer so perhaps ebay is a big source of resell income because auction prices are routinely so low ..and way below market

I don't mean to be rude, but you really need to use some punctuation if you want people to understand what you're saying. That first paragraph/stream of consciousness is very tough to follow. I'm pretty sure I still disagree, but it's hard to tell for sure.

The reason that most profit comes from private wholesale deals rather than ebay is pretty straight-forward. The big dealers use their reputations and connections to make large private purchases at a fraction of retail. There is some profit to be made from finding items that sell for cheap at an ebay auction. However, wading through ebay auctions probably isn't worth the time of the largest volume sellers.

You live in a fantasy
 

world if you honestly think every person in the market for a card sees it every time it is up for sale. It does not happen. I have many times bought cards from major auctions and sold them before i even received them. This idea that every collector in the country is aware of or remembers to bid in every auction is just unrealistic. As for your house argument not every house is maximized for profit either. That is why some people can buy and flip houses even without remodeling sometimes, just better or proper marketing (FSBO sales almost always lower than brokered sales). No market realizes maximum value every time an item is auctioned. It is just simple common sense. So you are telling me a brown old mill is only a $20 or so card because that was the auction result? Please, come on you can not truly believe this. I agree a card that sells every week in auction for relatively the same amount can be claimed to be market, but not things that not everyone sees or knows is listed. Many Topps test issues for example sell fairly reasonable when auctioned on ebay but sell for a lot more when sold straight retail because many people don't constantly search for them. The comics and pin ups from 1973 are just two major examples of this. I know PSA 8 Maris rookies also used to always sell fairly quickly for around 20-30% more than Ebay results (have not watched recently so don't know current trend on this card). Nothing that man controls is absolute or perfect in this world , and we control auction results. An example from another field I recently bought a JSA certified Andy Kauffman autograph for $40 from an auction advertised on this website, last ebay sale was 10-12x that so is the market really only $40 now because this item slipped through the cracks?

Yes more ePay rules for Sellers would be awesome!

I have bought two 1969 Mantles recently...
 

I have bought two 1969 Mantles recently...both on eBay. One in a lot with 10 other 1969 Topps Hall of Famers for $35 and one in a lot with two other Mantle cards and a Musial for $66. How did I get them that cheap? Neither lot had Mickey Mantle in the title. One of the listings got 17 different bidders, while the other probably had 4. Very few people actually saw these listings. One of the lots had Mantle spelled "Mantel" and the other didn't even show that the card was in the lot (except for his hands gripping the bat and the Louisville Slugger logo further up the card). eBay and even REA/major auction houses are places where imperfect knowledge reigns. Not everything is listed accurately, and many sellers suffer from poor/incomplete information. There is definitely a place to turn a profit just by reselling on eBay.
The real trick, for most people, isn't buying low and selling high. It's doing those and not siphoning profits off into a personal collection. ;-)

i guess i have my answer
 

when we talking about mispelled listings etc...I think we all can agree that we wouldnt count those for market price....i would agree completely that a mickey Mantel spelling could result in a sale under market price...and if you looked at the link of the auction you would see that....thats just all the way on the other side of the spectrum...nothing to bring up in a market price argument..

the fact that you cant count on ebay sales to resell items on a regular basis means that they are going for close enough to market to not be able to sell

in addition, in a house analogy...even when the housing market goes down...people still will need a place to stay and rent. There is always some value in houses...there could be a time when cardboard is just cardboard..

this argument i am making about long term potential of a large downward trend is important when looking a the time period for 'market value' ..i would go a few months of sales...listing a card for a long period of time for the 'market value' risks the chance for the general downturn as a card is not a commodity versus a house......thus i would measure market price period for a limited time...if you needed money in the next 6 months to pay bills..i would think an REA auction etc spelled correctly would be considered the market price....yet on ebay you will see cards priced 20% higher listed for years...and i keep hearing that those prices are market price because ebay auctions are terrible indicators as they go for too low (even though you cant buy cards there and make a profit on a regular basis)

Market value
 

by definition has two components what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept. At an auction with no reserve and a nominal minimum bid the seller's acceptance to any offer is taken out of the equation.