|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thank you for that clarification. So we have cards that are of the same tone. The number of cards now may have only been on one sheet. I was basing my extrapolation on the way they appeared in your scans. Please note one and all I would not remember two different tones from a conversation from 2001 at the latest. Again, thank you for the clarification. |
Is it possible that the original owner had genuine blank backed W575-1's and put a fake Herp stamp on back of the cards? Therefore, when he stated that the cards were not real, he meant that it wasn't real b/c the Herp back wasn't genuine? (Complete conjecture)
|
Quote:
Number 2 - we all have seen a lot of cards that are 100% real that had a collectors sale price on the back Number 3 is an opinion Sorry, these three reasons don't support the absolute statement you are making. I have no stake in proving these cards to be authentic, but you haven't offered any real proof other than your opinion. |
Presumably if people are biased by whatever beliefs would be self-serving then those who have bought them may be subject to some bias of overconfidence in the cards' authenticity and those who have not bought them may be subject to some bias in the opposite direction. Most of us fall in the latter camp. Let's exclude everyone else, though, in the interest of a very conservative sense of the board's opinion. Is there a single person other than Brian here, among the hundreds of us who have not bought them, who believes they are fake? I don't mean that as a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely curious about it.
I too would have assumed it was just trolling, but I've seen Brian posting on here for a long time, and he always seemed like a reasonable person. |
I own one of these, and am quite confident it is real.
Brian, I don’t doubt you heard what you state and that the man who told you that the cards were not real honestly believed it–I’m just convinced he was wrong. Sure he would have an incentive to investigate and would want to sell them for more if real, but that doesn’t mean he can;t be wrong. As others have said, unless he made them himself, instructed that they be made or witnessed their production, his is really little more than an opinion. I can easily see a scenario where he did not know what he had, and consulted with known resources-- all the catalogues and his fellow dealers-- to come to his conclusion. Please remember that fake Henry Johnson’s and Kendigs were circulating during this time–cards that use the very same fronts as these Herpolsheimers/W-575s/E121s. It was even a bit of a hot button, BOLO type situation within the hobby-- I remember some bad HJs emanating from a Festberg auction and posting about it here if not the old Full Count board back around 2000-2001. I even called Lew Lipset at the time and he spoke of these cards being faked. It could very well be that the consensus of those dealers at the RM show was to conclude that these were not genuine basically because no one had seen them, they were not catalogued and other fakes with the same fronts were then circulating. Add to that any dealer with cock-suredness or bravado barking authoritatively to your guy that he “knew” these to be fake and there you have it. Fake it is. I do not believe it would have been insulting to ask this man how he acquired these cards or if he knew anything about their history–anything to give you more information. These questions are asked all the time with no disrespect. Of course I do not fault you for not asking, but to place so much weight on such a terse statement is misplaced, IMO. |
Another way to look at it?
These cards - in their various guises and ACC numbers/names/categorizations - were used for advertising purposes across a wide variety of product spaces (food, entertainment, clothing etc...) and time - the images were certainly used into the 20's (licensed or otherwise)
As such, they likely went through a variety of steps before they ever made it into distribution, some of which might see the content being generated by an honest-to-goodness print manufacturer using that (licensed?) content for the express purpose of making advertising material in the form of "cards". For example ... Back in 1921, Joe Jr (son of the owner of Joe's Auto Body) had a run of advertising material requested, featuring an ad for his Dad's shop on the back of the cards. The ad company ran the "for approval" copies off and gave them to Joe Jr. Dad said we don't have the money for that ... and the advertising campaign died right there, never making it to production. Joe Jr kept the promos, and never considered them "real" because that print run - effectively customer "proofs" - were never acted on, but kept for whatever reason .. Joe Jr - or maybe Joe III sometime later - found them and brought them out.If they were printed on appropriate equipment at that time, for the express purpose marketing/advertising like other cards of the generation, with licensed images, etc... they're real (to me). If they were printed years later on different printing hardware with different ink, using old images simply as "fantasy" cards, sure, they're fake... I think the empirical evidence says that's not the case. Maybe some other printer put the time/$$ into a project for reward and it got axed due to use of unlicensed content or some other legalities. Does not change the above statements much, IMO. I think even the honesty of the guy selling them, but calling them "not real" is sort of moot, if you did not question him as to what he meant by "... they're not real ...", the above example being a case in point... :
Not having any context except your memory about the conversation and no further details makes this a "he-said" conversation. Not that it is not worthy of discussion, but your insistence on that as the key point as to the fakeness makes me wonder if there is not a middle ground somewhere that is more like reality... one in which the cards - for all intents and purposes - are ones that were licensed and printed for a legit reason and qualify as real under most definitions, but were considered as "not real" by the holder because he knew that they never saw the light of day for their "intended" purpose. Yes, there are equally stories on the "fake" side, I'm just trying to make the point that under the circumstances, outcomes from natural events that might explain both: the quality/reality of the cards, and an involved(?) person's contention to the contrary are not at all implausible. |
1 Attachment(s)
Herpolsheimer's in Lincoln...I always wondered if there was any connection, but I think there was one in Detroit too which is more likely where they originated.
|
You're killin' me Brian! I consider you a hobby friend but your stance on these cards is completely baffling to me! I just don't think there is anything that will convince you that the guy was mistaken and that these are original. You have no evidence that they are fake other than the guys word which for some reason is enough for you even though ALL evidence points to him having been wrong! I like you so I don't want to beat a dead horse but I hope someday you will actually hold one of these cards and look at it objectively for what it is and you will come to the same conclusion as the rest of us...
|
Quote:
Why? He was the point of origin. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Yes, I am being real. Guys, the only cards from this set came from this guy. Does this not set off an alarm? |
Brian, you do not know him to be the point of origin, and apparently he did not even claim to be the point of origin. He simply said they are fake. He even could have bought them earlier in the day from another dealer from all we've been shown.
I believe the Herpolsheimer story was posted before, but I’ll give it another go. 1920 was the 50 year anniversary of the patriarch William Herpolsheimer’s involvement in the dry goods business, so it might have been a good idea to revive the baseball card idea from a few years prior. Unfortunately, the old man died in February, 1920. His son then died in April. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the tumult caused by these deaths, or simply the business decisions of those who took over led Herpolsheimer to scrap the whole idea such that a prototype set was never completed or was never distributed. That would explain why no others have surfaced. I hope our researcher sleuths with access to old newspapers will look into the Grand Rapids papers of the time. These Herpolsheimers make reference to the Boys Fashion Shop being on the Second Floor of the store– a fact missing from the 1916 m101-4/5 Herps. If it turns out that is the correct floor than it is even more likely that these are real, unless the creator of the fakes also went to the trouble of great research some 15+ years ago (with fewer internet resources) to add an esoteric and largely irrelevant fact. Even without this info, though, I simply cannot believe these are fake. The paper is spot on. The photography too, and fakes of that era are usually either muddy or washed out. The gloss matches–very hard to do. And of course the backs look like they were printed by the same company as the Holsums and the Shotwells, with similar patterns, fonts and spacing. Finally and as pointed out, the grouping contained players not then known to even exist in the Holsum or E121 sets. Just way too much here to by rebutted by a simple declaration otherwise. |
Quote:
|
But we can all agree the prices for those listings on Ebay are way too high whether the cards are real or not?
|
My thoughts
Quote:
I see this as the most plausible answer since we have the various knowledgeable collectors who have actually looked at the cards and determined them to be genuine. Brian (not the original poster, but instead poster child) |
Quote:
Now, that I have summoned an English term, and I am in an impish state of mind, imagine not a dead beaten horse (sorry SPCA for the brutal mental image), but imagine a dead parrot. I did not buy the parrot, but imagine me coming in with that same impish grin and making my argument. Now for a selection from my sense of humor reference library: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE |
Quote:
Just to clarify, the cards on eBay are Merchants Bakery and are real. The ones we are discussing are 1921 Herpolsheimers which are fake. It is not a popular sentiment as you can see from this post which I have made stray from its original point. |
Quote:
|
Point of origin?
Does that mean he was the guy who printed them or he was the guy who sold the original lot? Again, two different scenarios with the answer to each giving a different meaning to the cards. If he was the point of origin means he printed the cards then, yes, they are "not real". If point of origin means he was the seller of the lot then this means the cards very well could be authentic and "not real" means the guy didn't know what he owned. In 1994, I bought my Star Player Candy cards from an ephemera dealer at a paper show in Louisville, KY. He wrote his asking price on the back of each card in pencil. He told me the cards were originally collected by his Father who had lived in central Michigan as a child. The dealer didn't know who produced the cards (I didn't either. It took me a half an hour looking through the big SCD price guide in my car to find the cards and know they were real). Now, what if this dealer did NOT know where the cards came from and he had access to a price guide and knew exactly what the cards were. What if he priced 14 of them as real and priced the Buddy Myer as fake and the ONLY reason he did this was because the Myer wasn't listed in the price guide? I bought all of the cards for what the dealer was asking and only later, when I had time to look through all of them, did I find out that the Myer was an uncatalogued card. Did I think the Myer card was fake because it was unlisted? No. That was because it looked the same as the other 14 cards and was on the same paper. So, unless the guy you bought these cards from specifically said he or someone he knew printed these cards and that they were blatant fakes, I find it hard to believe, with all of the other evidence presented, that these cards are fake. David PS. I don't own any of these Herps, I have never owned any of these Herps and I have never even held one of these cards in my hand. I DO remember when they were on eBay and the conversation about them on the old board when they were listed. |
Leon and Rhett's opinion >>>>>>>>>>> unnamed dealer.
|
Quote:
I'll take a step best and wish you good luck in this discussion & horse beating. |
Quote:
That is one thing I think we can all agree. |
Quote:
|
LOL.
I apologize for the delays in response, but there is a ballgame on. Gentleman, All of the cards out there are from one guy. I met the guy. He said they were not real. Why? Mistaken? Nope. Who goes to a show with "original" cards and sells them for $1.00 to $3.00 and says they are not real. Then, after the fact, no further examples, save a poor attempt at a Cobb are found. The parrot is dead. The troll is still alive. Hello, Polly! This is turning into a classic thread ;):rolleyes: |
I just can't understand how "those aren't real" can make the jump to he printed them... and knows EVERYTHING about their history.
Honesty does not equate to never wrong. Ignorance and honesty are two separate issues as this thread has proved (because both sides of this debate have honest people and at least one side is wrong). To produce the cards to look the exact same as the other cards from the set is a lot harder than you realize and seem to think through. Have you seen the "void" on a check that is written using small dots? That is because if you try and copy this design the scanner can't reproduce that accurately when reproduced. This is, in essence, what the problem with trying to produce the fronts of these cards is. The halftone used to produce the cards can't be replicated by copying the front of another card and then reprinting it. You would have to have the original of every photo to even begin to replicate these. This is also the same reason why other fakes have been easy to spot. The only "plausible" explanation that keeps these cards "fake" is the stamping idea someone mentioned, but even that one should be easy to figure out based of the ink used and is easy to prove. |
Isn't it too difficult to distinguish between authentic and reprinted Fro Joy cards? It is my understanding that the Fro Joy cards are no longer being graded because it is too difficult to distinguish between some reprinted and authentic examples.
|
Quote:
|
Brian
I really question your recall of the entire story. You have stated multiple times that they were sold on eBay by a seller in Maryland. That's is incorrect. They were sold by an antique shop in Grand Rapids Michigan. If you have this basic fact wrong maybe you don't remember the other details clearly. |
Quote:
My apologies because I do not mean to offend you, but it is you that has your facts incorrect. Herpolsheimers had a shop in Grand Rapids, MI. The cards that this gentleman had were eventually sold on eBay by a seller in Maryland. |
Never kiss a Herpolsheimer's on the mouth
Quote:
Brian (part of the Herpes are for real lynch mob) |
Brian,
My deepest apologies, but there was nothing intentional. This thread is keeping me both busy and endlessly amused with timeout for laughing spurts. Professor Wagstaff here has seen you and can only answer that this particular dealer was clear in his explanation, "They are not real." That tells me he knows about their history and the handwriting on the cards-I did not ask this either-I presume was his. I know. I know. So, if the guy states "They are not real," he writes what price he wants for the cards and displays them at his table, it says to me the origin is something he has a clear knowledge of and has priced his cards accordingly. Ask yourself this question: If this guy has so little knowledge of his product, how is it he had every "legitimate" (cough, cough) that has ever been known to the hobby? |
The only thing I don't understand about this thread is why Brian won't even consider that just maybe, the guy was mistaken and didn't know what he had (as others have stated). Like it's not even remotely possible. This honest gentleman (selling fake cards :confused:) could have easily acquired them, had never seen or heard about them before, and thus assumed and truly believed that they were not genuine.
There's zero possiblity of that because he said they were fakes? |
Brian,
I believe Benchod believes these were sold from Grand Rapids Mi based upon the following post from (former?) member Jeff McKee, who was an active bidder when these first appeared on Ebay ten years ago: Quote:
|
Keep posting, Brian
In the last 2 days I've been able to add 5 Herpolsheimers hofers to my collection at rock bottom prices |
Quote:
|
Quote:
The eBay seller was/is located in Grand Rapids. Area code 616 |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Bruce is back! :D |
Quote:
That question I can not provide an answer to and never will be able to satisfy the curiosity. |
Quote:
Can I trouble you for a date on that post? I am a packrat when it comes to e-mails and I may-repeat may-be able to come up with the original eBay seller account. Thank you, Brian |
Brian,
I closed the window. Just search Herpolsheimer--go to last and then up to the October through December 2004 posts for these various discussions. Added-- your post was 12/24/2004. |
Unless we know why the original seller believed them to be fake, his statement that they are fake is without any credibility. That is why no one is able to buy into Brian's story here.
My guess -- pure and simple -- is that the seller acquired them from someone who told him they were fake; or the seller had them appraised by someone he trusted who told him they were fake. Any of those people is just offering an opinion as to authenticity unless they printed them or fabricated them personally. I have a signed T206 Cobb that James Spence told me was fake. Does that make it so? In the hobby today, you bet it does. If Brian himself does not know who fabricated them, then the best anyone can hope for is an expert opinion. And the experts on Net54 have clearly weighed in on them being authentic. This is all that matters. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I shall step back now and watch the merry-go-round go 'round.:D |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Thank you, Todd.
Here are parts 1 and 2. To clarify in part 2, I did see the guy setup at the Cleveland National (1999?). I was not part of the first discussion (now stop cheering :D): http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=Herpolsheimer http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=Herpolsheimer |
Oh, from December 24, 2004:
"Posted By: BrianVanHorn The cards offered on eBay are fakes. I have seen these cards once before at a show produced by J. Paul Sports at the Charles Sewald Center on the Robert Morris Campus in Pittsburgh. This was about six years ago and I asked the dealer about these cards. He said they were fakes. Why else would he say this if it were not true? Apparently, according to the dealer, they were produced in the 1970's. Of course, as I write this, I have no idea of the identity of the dealer. It was a one time meeting. Please don't misinterpret my message. I don't mean to come off as a "know it all" or bombastic. This is my first post and I don't want to get off on the wrong foot." Right after that Leon typed "nothing personal, but you're wrong." I guess it's just a decade reunion disagreement. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:20 AM. |