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And we would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids....
I feel like most auction houses appreciate the help that Net54 provides in rooting out bad items or misidentified photos, et cetera....I've always gotten the feeling that we are a thorn in the side of Heritage and they'd prefer we stop investigating their auctions. At the very least they stopped sending out the condescending jackwagon they used to have as their Net54 mouthpiece. |
Thanks everyone for the (mostly) kind words and for the support.
I just want to address what a couple of you brought up - my timing issue and how I should have given them more time. I agree with one of the posters - the rings were tampered with - this can not be disputed. Chris said he needed to speak with Mr. Edwards to make a final determination on the items and if the descriptions should be modified. In one of my posts, I asked Chris, what could he possibly hear from Mr. Edwards that could change the fact or Chris's already determined agreement with me that the ring engravings were not original. This investigation did not rise to the level of Watergate or the IRS scandal. I gave Chris time to deal with this but I felt that the community needed fair time to be warned about these problems. If you track what super bowl rings typically sell for, these two items could have realistically sold for 20,000 - 50,000 each. My experience in speaking with and dealing with these types of buyers is that they are very busy with work, careers, and other pursuits in life and are not glued to the internet or hobby. They could easily miss the update (yes I know Chris explained his process for making sure this would not happen, but it's not full proof and no guarantee bidders will see it). And yes I know, the responsability lies with the bidder and he/she should be their research. |
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If I was the consigner how would I feel? I am glad you asked: He contacted me prior to putting the items in the auction as I have purchased rings from him in the past. I sent him pictures of real rings and told him that Donnie Edwards was not a player. The consigner chose to proceed anyway and put the items in the auction. The consigner is a "buyer" of jewelry and decided to try to unload these rings on an unsuspecting public. |
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Remember, I am saying that Chris and I have a different opinion on to proper timing of this investigation and Chris and his company did their investigation and took down the rings. How about blaming the consigner? When I presented evidence to him about Donnie Edwards not being a player, and no such thing as practice squads in the 1970s, and the bad engraving he decided to keep the story in-tact and send the rings off to auction. I work with Ken Goldin at Goldin Auctions and have given Ken football memorabilia to put in his auction. The last thing I want to do is embarrass Ken, or have an item returned to Ken. I don't want to get one over on the auction house or the winning bidder. I want Ken to want my business and consider me a good partner in future auctions. So I tell Ken, ahead of time about any claims or issues. I then rely on Ken and his experience to either: 1) not accept the item 2) write up a description explaining any issues 3) guide me how to be honest and handle that situation. I was able to sell in Ken's auction that National Champions ring from the person who claimed to be on the team but wasn't. Ken and his crew wrote up an honest description and the ring sold. I believe Heritage will rewrite the description and put the rings in a future auction and that's fine. Everyone except the consigner, who should have at least warned Heritage that there could be issues, will be better off - including the eventual winning bidders of the two rings. |
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So what it all boiled down to Michael, is that you didn't like the way HA went about their own business and how they decided to do their jobs? They did not do things fast enough for you is what all boils down to.
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Pretty simple really. :rolleyes: |
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It boils down to the consigner tried to get one over on the auction house and the collecting community. |
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Is it possible that an auction house might want to drag their feet on an investigation until after the auction concludes and only then clean up the mess with the winning bidder? Then it's not out there, before the auction concludes, for the masses to see? Just a thought.
Rob M. |
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Would he be wrong to say "why didn't you guys tell me ahead of time there was an issue???" And as far as proclaiming that Heritage did not follow my timetable - what would happen if I never heard back from Heritage and they never changed the auction? When is a good time to alert the community? Five minutes before the live bidding starts on net54 so no one will see it? An hour after the auction? A day? A week? Bob, no offense but you have lost your objectivity on this matter. I realize I see things different than perhaps your clients do but your opinion seems to be in the minority here. |
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It does seem tha HA has done this before. Wait to the last minute to remove and item. I do not think that it takes a month to get a hold of a consigner of such high valued rings. Same with the watch. It does start to get old.:rolleyes:
I also see that an item that is truely suspected to be a forgery is consigned by one of the big shots at HA. I really think that is convlict of interest. Keeping an item in because your own guy is selling it. Last thing. When it came to the rings even a person who has never dealt with rings could see that they where altered. It really would have made them look good if they just taken them down when this all started. |
I think this would have been a great time to let the rings sell, keeping the facts hidden. (Obviously, the winning bidder would be notified immediately!) $60K worth of fraud is noteworthy. After the sale, trace the rings back to the consignor with the threat of jail time, and have him give up where he got them. Trace them all the way back to the source. Somehow we need to find out where all this garbage is coming from, and try to put and end to it. It appears the Cooperstown Forger is off pursuing journalistic activities, but many have stepped up to take his place.
Ken PS: I, for one, am glad this whole thing was brought out publicly. PPS: Ken Goldin's name has been brought into this thread. It seems Goldin will pull an auction at first hint of trouble, even if it means he's pulling what turns out to be a real item. Based on his hammer totals, being proactive does not hamper the bottom line! |
He already commited fraud when he placed them in auction as authentic.
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Bob, when you proclaimed above what it boils down to, you got it wrong. Here's what your response boils down to: No software product is perfect. Even your software has its issues. My feeling is you are siding with the auction house view solely because you don't have the guts or objectivity to look at this matter from the collector's point of view. Which is it? |
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Don't let the bad guys get you down. Shelley, Chris and myself have fought through so much bullshit from guys who are obviously bad guys. Trying to nail the Florida ring has caused us nothing but grief so far but we are still hoping our efforts will be worthwhile. |
Thanks Richard,
and glad to hear that you are feeling better! |
Bob, they did a piss poor job. This could have been done in a few days not weeks. :mad::mad::mad:
There is no two sides to this arguement. |
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Michael, your dead wrong - again, re-read my initial thread where I say you did a great job. My only point in all of this is that you were too impatient and you wanted HA to move at your speed and when they did not you acted like a spoiled kid and kicked and screamed. In fact, when no one replied to your initial thread, you posted again asking if anyone cares?
I am not sure what your comment about software has anything to with this thread but if you want to jab at it go ahead. And there ARE two sides to every argument. HA did what they were supposed to do and that is to proceed at a pace that they deemed proper and not yours nor anyone else's. You say I don't have the guts to agree with you because of my lack of objectivity is another rat hole that you want people to chase. I never said I agreed with HA all I said is that you should be patient and stop crying that the sky is falling because HA did not act in a timely manner that you deemed proper. You were impatient who screamed louder when you did not get your way. |
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Or an hour before? How about moments after the auction? or a day or week after the auction? which is it? You would have a much stronger argument, and I would agree with you if I called out an auction that had a piece that was challenging to authenticate. Bob, how hard was this piece to verify? This is the equivalent of a Babe Ruth autograph being auctioned that did not look anything like a Babe Ruth signature. So I can be a better participator in the collecting community, please answer my question about proper timing - this is the second time I have posted this question to you. |
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Michael, you and I both know that there is no set time. It is not like you are dealing with Coaches Corner here. Chris said he was on it and that should have been good enough for you. If he had ignored you or told you to leave him alone, then tell the world but he didn't and IMO, you should have been satisfied with that but, I guess you wanted the accolades that go along with outing them so you waited a week(not sure about the time here ?) and posted about it not once but twice and your second post was a whole 11 hours later.
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If I wanted accolades than why even attempt to deal with Chris and Heritage privately?
If I wanted accolades, why should I admit that there are others out there who know more than I do. Bob, you're great at telling me what I did wrong - not for a third time, I'm asking: when is it appropriate to bring a bad auction to net54? |
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Just re-read my last post, I am not re-hashing it again |
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I agree with Chris and Bob. Their timeframe for action was reasonable, but did not meet your desire for immediacy. If they had ignored you or told you to pound sand, the course you took would be more than appropriate. You were being a pain in the ass. Look at the situation objectively and 'Own it'. Many of us have been in your place many times. :D I have learned that being in a righteous position does not always lead me to my best behavior. :o |
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The more research put into an auction piece, the more the hobby's consumers will benefit from it. |
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when is a good time to alert the community? a day or two before the live auction? a day? an hour? or a week after? |
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On an entirely unrelated matter, my wife "reminded" me several times to mow the lawn during my week off as we had a commitment for the weekend. Prior to her first "reminder", I had already planned to do it on Thurs. I told her I would mow on Thurs. I mowed on Thurs. In her mind, she was responsible for getting the lawn mowed. |
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After a 12 day absence I was looking at the lawn today and wondering what my girlfriend's expectations would be when she got home. I decided to sleep on it.
Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk |
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I'm new, too....but not as new, or funny, as William. |
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