Originally Posted by T206Collector (Post 1270920)

What I am trying to say is that an "auction setting" is really no different than a BIN setting when you assume that there is the potential for shill bidding.

To imagine a world where the shiller is eliminated and the price drops down by $50 is the same thing as imagining a world where a seller places his listing price $50 less than he was willing to sell something for. Stated another way, if you told the shiller up front that he was going to get caught and prosecuted, he would either list his item at the higher price and list it with a higher reserve or minimum starting bid. The fantasy of a world where shilling doesn't exist and markets-clear prices are realized doesn't exist, least of all on eBay.

The reverse is also true. If you had a used car that you wanted to sell for $1,000, and a guy saw it and bought it for that price, you'd be happy, right? But, what if he recognized that your car had really rare features, and he flipped it immediately for $100,000? Of course the buyer would have wanted to get more than $1,000 for it in that case. But there is no mechanism for getting any more money to the buyer. The buyer was happy at his price point, as was the seller, but for different reasons. That certainly doesn't make speculating as a buyer illegal or immoral.

Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1270921)

Bill...I was being facetious...I think the concept of "being happy for a card" is kinda ridiculous!!!!

Originally Posted by japhi (Post 1270825)

I'm not a fan of shilling but if that was a card I wanted I would set a snipe at the number I'm comfortable, and at the same time notify Rick about the activity. He may ban those bidders and you might get the card at a good price. Worst case scenario you pay what your comfortable paying for the card.

Originally Posted by MattyC (Post 1270933)

I don't. To each his own.

Originally Posted by MattyC (Post 1270906)

Bill,

I understand and respect your thinking as well, regarding the what ifs of spending X more because of shilling.

I guess where I take a different path is that I see no mental benefit to contemplating all those what ifs. I will never know what a card will have cost me in some alternate reality where the auction was 100% legit collectors bidding. I don't know how such a perfect auction would be run or ever exist.

As another said, in lieu of the straight auction, sellers or owners should just put up reserves or BINS and Best Offers and negotiate for a price.

I think it was Bob Marley who said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." If the 'what ifs' reach a tipping point or critical mass where contemplating them bugs you more than having the card would please you, then I would let the hypothetical card in question go. If having the card at a price you're okay paying will bring you enough joy that you don't care about having potentially spent less in an alternate reality, then I say win the card. At least that's how I see it, and maybe that alternate perspective can be helpful in some way :)

Originally Posted by the 'stache (Post 1270941)

Ebay's dumbfounding lack of rule enforcement has me rethinking that, too.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1270938)

This thinking hurts my brain. Let's say you want a card up at auction which you are willing to pay $200 for -- and you put in such a snipe. A shill bidder puts in a bid at $199 with the next lowest bid at $50. So you end up getting the card at $200 and you're supposed to be happy? When you were just ripped off $149? Really?

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector (Post 1270962)

Why is everyone so shocked ? This is a typical thread. A member comes on to complain about a situation on eBay and/or an auction house. He wants to collect vintage baseball cards (or collect memorabilia, autographs, whatever) to a get away from his highly competitive & stressful career. The problem is he ends up having as much stress, if not more than in the hobby/business than he has in his profession.

Just come to the National & let's have a couple cold ones over dinner.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...atdrink004.gif

Originally Posted by japhi (Post 1270957)

Open to any solutions you have that can save me money buying on Ebay. If you have ways I can pay $150 for a card that typically sells for $200 I'm all ears.

Originally Posted by calvindog (Post 1271118)

It typically sells for $200 because it's shilled every time. Ever think that maybe your valuations are skewered because of fraud? As for a solution to get fair market value, the crooked ebay sellers with the miraculously fortuitous under bidders who never win an auction but whose bids are 95% with the sellers need to be removed. I've represented some eBay sellers who have been kicked off despite high sales. It does happen.

Originally Posted by buymycards (Post 1271195)

Here is another view of how prices may be affected by bidders. (I think this was discussed in a thread several years ago.) Let's say that I paid $5k for a certain card in a certain grade and the VCP average supports that price. Now I see a similar card on ebay and it is a few hours from closing and the price is $2k. So, I am thinking, I can't let this card go for $2k because that will bring the VCP average down and my card will be "worth" less, so I keep bidding it up to protect the value of my original card.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1271208)

I understand what you're saying, but it's just hard to imagine someone doing that. Let's say when you paid $5K for that card, you were in a bidding war with one other bidder and it drive the price to $5K, but you won the card. Now another card of the same kind and grade is on eBay with a high bid of $2K. Well, this time there is no bidding war to drive the price up. I can't see you bidding on the card at that point, just to keep the VCP average up. What if you ended up winning the card for say $2200 because nobody outbid you? Now you have two cards, one you paid $5K for, the other you paid $2200 for, and it still lowers the VCP average to $3600.

I just can't see someone throwing up a bid on a card to keep the VCP price up knowing that they could possibly "win" the card.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1271208)

I just can't see someone throwing up a bid on a card to keep the VCP price up knowing that they could possibly "win" the card.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1271208)

I understand what you're saying, but it's just hard to imagine someone doing that. Let's say when you paid $5K for that card, you were in a bidding war with one other bidder and it drive the price to $5K, but you won the card. Now another card of the same kind and grade is on eBay with a high bid of $2K. Well, this time there is no bidding war to drive the price up. I can't see you bidding on the card at that point, just to keep the VCP average up. What if you ended up winning the card for say $2200 because nobody outbid you? Now you have two cards, one you paid $5K for, the other you paid $2200 for, and it still lowers the VCP average to $3600.

I just can't see someone throwing up a bid on a card to keep the VCP price up knowing that they could possibly "win" the card.