I should clarify. When I said everyone's going to Hell, I didn't mean me. I'm clean. Or at least I apologized profusely.

I've seen some idiotic posts on Net 54 but this one might take the cake, right up there with San Quentin.

Well, it's easier to ask for forgiveness, than to beg for permission.:D

Ralph gets it. Thanks for posting this, Ralph.

When my Mom would catch me with my hand in the cookie jar, I always argued that after she punished my sister, I was more than willing to submit to a similar punishment. Funny, I got my ass beat anyway. :confused:

Perhaps I should have used the argument that my Sister was fat and happy from all the stolen cookie calories, so she must be doing something right.

Is this post a joke? Is it April fools day again?

1. He gets his hands on loads of stuff.- Well good for him. But it has nothing to do with what is being talked about.
2. Prices are prices- Most idiotic statement, in the context of this thread, that I have seen in a while. The problem is, prices we see aren't real prices, they are shilled. So, no, prices aren't prices.
3. Cry babys (sic) keep bringing up sour grapes. Yes, and each time a bank robber robs a bank, darn it, it makes the news again.
4. Big auctions protecting their rare items? Of course, it's called a reserve or a higher opening bid. Just like a consignor could tell Rick if he wanted to. That would be the moral and legal way to do it. And yes, there are a few hobbyists in a lot of hot water for doing it the wrong way.
5. The guy sells a ton of stuff, he must be doing something right. I think Rick is probably a very hard worker and is smart. A little more due diligence, when issues are brought to his attention, is all some of us are asking ie...ban bidders with a gazillion retractions and other issues. And maybe part of the reason he gets stuff is that the consignors know they can protect their consignments by shilling.


And I just want to make sure you are serious in believing what you wrote? It's hard for me to imagine anyone could really believe what you wrote. It's freaking crazy.


.

wow, this post has so much fail I don't even know where to begin!

Does anyone have suggestions to help?

Since some of you seem to think consigners are the only ones Rick listens to I will be happy to voice quality suggestions to him.

Leon- I want to ask a stupid question, nothing to do with the majority of your post....How many people on this board, being 100% completely honest, have either engaged in shilling or had it done or their behalf? I'm just curious, be honest....I personally know of 2 fellow collectors (nameless) who told me they did in the hopes of getting higher prices for their cards....Would it be fair to say that this is a plague to our hobby?

Sean- Lets start with an easy one. Anyone with more than 7 bid retractions in the last year can't bid with him. Keep it simple, that is all I am asking.

Most good ebayers, of which I hope to include myself, haven't had that many in 10+ yrs. I think I might have had 1, in over 14 yrs, but honestly can't even remember that, specifically.

+1, agree completely....

Just the good ol' boys
Never meanin' no harm
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since they took it online

Screwin' with bids
Paddin' the sales
Someday the bidders
Might get 'em
But the law never will

Makin' their way
The only way they know how
That's just a little bit more
Than the law should allow

Just the good ol' boys
Wouldn't change if they could
Fixin' the system
Like a true Internet Auction Hood

Shilling? I don't do it. I haven't asked anyone to bid on my stuff before either. Maybe that is the reason I lose money often when I sell? :( But to answer your question, yes I think it's prevalent and I think it's a big problem. I don't know if I would call it a plague?

Me neither Leon, but trust me when I say, we are the minority, period......

Damn Eric, I've got to ask, how long did it take you to write that??

+1

Here's another easy one. If it's pointed out to Rick (which it has been) that certain consigners are shilling, then ban that individual from consigning or bidding with him in the future. How hard is that?

Sean, the next time you talk to Rick, ask him a simple question: "Why didn't you ban Joe P from future auctions when he was caught shill bidding over a year ago, and why haven't you banned him since as he's been caught doing it again?" I would love to hear his answer.

I have been buying/selling on ebay since 96 or 97 and I have never shilled any auction for myself or anyone else. I also have never retracted a single bid in that time.

As far as what Rick could do, I think he should have a 1 strike and you are out policy for anyone that shills there items he is selling.

Kevin,

It took me just a moment. Please know that I do not have a horse in this race. I have never placed a bid with the auctioneers mentioned in this thread.

Best,

Eric

Prob
 

Wow,
I got myself smack dab in the middle of a good ole hootin and hollerin contest with dem thar Good Ole Boys !

Leon,

You ripped into my points pretty good ! LOL

Oh you forgot to comment on my first point -
Ive been bidding and will continue to bid on Probstein stuff ( and lets be honest..look at all the action/bidders on his stuff he gets thousands of bids...Im sure half the members of Net54 bid on his items..and they must be OK with it ?? ) .

I see you guys point ..all this talk of shills and questionable items...but for a long time fun loving lower grade cheapskate collector like me..... Who Cares !

Dont bid ... then maybe I can get that beat up T205 Cobb a bit cheaper

And that question that was raised by someone about shill bidding....come on guys..lets be honest.... Of the Thousands of members of net54.... I would say 50% have done some "type" of shill bidding at least once...

Ralph,

No, I have not engaged in shilling. Sorry to contribute to proving you wrong.

Best,

Eric

...

Prob
 

Yea, OK Eric,...now were just waiting on truthful responses from the other 11,999 members

Ok, I'll come clean. In 1983, I shoplifted a pack of Topps cards from the Ben Franklin in Lander, Wyoming. I swear there was not any thing good in there...

Well, to be truthful, I was looking for Pete Rose, but their might have been a Gwynn, Boggs or Sandberg...

All my friends were doing it...

At least it wasn't Donruss pack...

I did not have sex with that woman.

I don't shill because I have not sold thru an auction house or eBay. Have had it done to me on items I've purchased, and I resent it. I watch it these days. But I am so dang dumb on this stuff it could be happening as I speak!

BTW, there is a thread going now talking about a backstamped t206 card, I believe a Probstein auction. The current bidder has something like 28 retractions. And yes, I have purchased cards from Rick in the past. I would not touch this one.

Keith Temple

I confess that I am the Odist of Shills
 

Frank Burkett, Poet, Wine Connoiseur, Lover*!

*Lover of rare baseball cards.

What character? I am unfortunately a victim of his thanks to only seeing a very old post here talking mostly positively about him. I'm going to start a thread about my terrible experience with him. I've been to his "office" in Passaic where he lists his stuff. Once I get the whole thing together, I will post it. This guy belongs in prison for a number of reasons which I will bring up in that thread.

By the way, in the eyes of ethical people, if you witness a crime and do nothing to stop it, then you aren't that much better than the criminal.

There is a way to stop him. The shill bidding is most likely interstate fraud, which would involve the FBI. No one thought that crook Bill Mastro could be brought down. What happened to him? Everyone needs to file repeated complaints to the FBI, to the IRS, to their state's Attorney General. I would say local police, but they wouldn't do anything. Contact media outlets from the internet and other venues. He can be brought down very easily, but with time and with some effort. What happened to good old American know how? Was that outsourced as well? I am going to do my best to bring this trash down. The only way our government and law enforcement ever does anything is to shut up the people that constantly complain to them. If you keep complaining to the FBI, they will eventually begin watching him. It will be worth the effort in the end.

By the way, why would he stop allowing shilling if people keep bidding? It only makes him more money, and it's clear his world revolves around taking every penny he can from everyone. I for one will never do business with this trash again. I wish I had seen these threads about him instead of the ones praising him. I would have never consigned with him.


He ignores answering questions that expose him or put him in a negative light, so unless you ask him 15 times, he most likely will ignore it. That is obvious guilt.

I'm sure a lot of people liked (insert any evil dictator through history) because none of their relatives were killed by him and they were able to get a job during his reign while disregarding some of that other stuff he was doing to others because it did not affect them. I guess with your logic, (Insert any evil dictator through history) was great and must have been doing something right since he was in power and plenty of people were cheering at his speeches, therefore what could go wrong? People like you enable criminals and help make them more successful while everyone else gets screwed over thanks to you.

Fraud is illegal regardless of whether it gets you a good price on what you want. Using your logic you would be ok with it if a car you were buying came to you at a good price because it was stolen from someone else as long as the price was a steal.

You most likely think we have an honest government running as well since they got elected, they must be doing something right. Keep being blind, it will bite you pretty hard one day.

It was reading posts like yours a few months ago that got me screwed over dealing with him.

Perhaps you simply hold yourself to a lower standard than the rest of us, and pretending that we're all behaving like you makes you feel like a better person?

...

Probe
 

Come on Acollector... being a little dramatic arent you ?

Going on about Hitler, stolen cars, criminals, honest government !

Im just saying that lots of collectors at one time of another have done some type of shill bidding

How did a post of mine once cause you to get screwed over by Probstein ?

Come on RunScott..Im just giving my opinion ..no need to start the personal insults.....but really..I dont care...like I said many times...I love posts like this that get hotly contested/ long winded/ nasty/etc.. I find it entertaining

Well done!

I would propose that Rick institute a rule in every one of his listings, that every bidder would agree to when they place a bid, something along the lines of:

No bidder with more than 2 bid retractions in the past 6 months is eligible to bid on this auction. Any bidder who wins an auction and has more than 2 bid retractions in the past 6 months will forfeit the auction. (this is to eliminate last second snipe bids that Rick would be unable to monitor and cancel prior to the end of the auction)

The item could then be re-listed.

Now if Rick is able to determine that the bidder(s) in these situations are shilling for the seller, he should return the card to the consignor and ban the bidder and consignor and refuse to do business with the consignor. Period.

I do not sell on Ebay, so what I propose may not even be possible. I'm pretty sure that sellers are allowed to insert their own binding bidding rules as long as they do not violate current Ebay policies. And I'm not sure how consignment sellers could handle the Ebay fees charged to them after the conclusion of an auction in such a situation. Would Ebay dismiss the fees under this situation since the "winner" violated one of the seller stpulated rules? or not? Since I don't sell I'm not sure of all of this, but its an idea that popped into my head.

I've hired an armed guard to make sure I don't over bid on auctions, I suggest posters here do the same. I can't help myself otherwise.

Get married and you won't need an armed guard to make sure you don't overbid on auctions.

Probstein Mathewson ball auction
 

Regarding the Probstein Mathewson signed ball auction which ended a couple days ago: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=370937104344

The ball sold for $8990, solely because the underbidder put in a bid at about $1600 above the third bidder for the ball, three days before the ebay auction ended -- and the underbidder just happens to bid in Probstein's auctions 94% of the time. Curiously, the underbidder's bid of $8890 is almost identical to what the ball sold for in the 2013 REA auction ($8887): http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...85.html#photos This bid of $8990 was placed a few days before the auction ended, solely to provide a floor/shill bid, presumably to ensure that the owner of the ball didn't lose any money following his purchase of the ball in REA.

I emailed Rick from the Mathewson auction listing and the following dialogue occurred:

1) Rick -- were you the owner of this ball which just sold in your auction?

Response: which ball ?


2) The Mathewson ball.

Response: consignor .....I owned the ruth ball though


3) Would you permit Rob Lifson to answer my question if you are not, in fact, the winner of that Mathewson ball from his auction?

No response


4) So are you saying that you consigned the Mathewson ball but didn't own it? How can you consign something you don't own?

Response: I'm not gonna be online, if something is pressing try me at 973 747 6304 , all our transactions are confidential...both buyers and consignors....


5) Rick,

I'm not asking for you to betray the confidence of a buyer or consignor. I'm simply asking if you bought the Mathewson ball in the REA auction. You denied that you were the owner of the ball but said you were the consignor. To me, if you consigned the ball that means you own it. Again, I don't wish to know who purchased the Mathewson ball in the REA auction unless it's you.

Jeff Lichtman

Response: jeff, your not understanding my emails....we're having email confusion..lets try again....

I bought the matty from REA , sold it privately , and the guy didn't like so it was consigned to us...
I bought the ruth ball from either REA or legendary or huggins, don't recall, and I was the owner who sold it....

the names of all my consignors are private as are the winning bidders....


6) Rick,

Are you aware that the underbidder of your Matty ball auction bids on your auctions 94% of the time? And that the bid he/she put in was almost to the dollar the amount that YOU paid for in the REA auction for that ball? Presuming you didn't sell the ball to him for exactly what you paid for it from REA, don't you find it interesting that the underbidder put in a placeholder bid 3 days before your ebay auction ended which matches what YOU paid for it on REA?

Jeff

Response: I wasn't aware of this...were u the winner of the ball ?


7) You don't know the winner of an auction of yours which ended a couple days ago?

Response: typicallyno
we currently run 20,000 auctions a month...I had 20 staff people here today...I spend the lionshare of my time keeping them busy..

when people email me or call when they see a problem I do act..
the mantle bvg card auction was emailed to me and I cancelled the bids on it....


8) That's wonderful -- but you didn't address what I asked, namely, that fraud obviously occurred in this auction and considering it was a ball which you bought in an REA auction shouldn't something be done about it?

No response


9) So do you think you should void the auction result and let the winner know that he was defrauded the difference between the bids of the second and third bids on the ball? It's fairly obvious that fraud occurred, no?

Response: I'm gonna first contact the consignor and get more info....


**This conversation was two days ago, that's the last I've heard from Rick about this auction.

Those responses from Rick P. are very disconcerting. Feign ignorance, change the subject, indirect answers. It's a big money train and a lot of folks are banking, some are members here. So simple, consign/shill/count profit. I want to be angry, but instead I'm just disappointed.

He will keep ignoring the stuff that shows he may be guilty or makes it clearer that he might not be a good guy. The no response is typical of him because the honest answer might expose him so he won't incriminate himself. The 20 staff comment is trying to make himself look like a big shot and make him sound oh so important and busy. I have seen his "staff" and will elaborate in a few days. That call me you aren't understanding me BS is most likely to buy him some time to come up with a "legitimate" sounding answer or he figures you won't call him. Offering to talk on the phone gives an illusion of "I have nothing to hide". He figures that you most likely won't call him. I wouldn't be surprised if you do call him, that he claims he's too busy to talk or he is driving to get rid of you.

The we run 20,000 a month is for two reasons. The "we" is "I". It's his ID, he is not a company. He is one guy, but saying we makes it sound like a company and people are harder on an individual than a company. The 20,000 auctions is an excuse for "we are just so busy we don't have the time to look at every detail." When you don't have the time to do things right, DON'T DO THEM or hire enough people that can do things right.

"I bought the matty from REA , sold it privately , and the guy didn't like so it was consigned to us" That makes absolutely no sense. If I buy something from someone and don't like it, I ask for a refund. I don't have him consign it to risk it selling for less than what I paid.

I ask, why would a money hungry type that wants every penny he can get (as he appears to be in my opinion) stop shill bidding on his items (assuming he isn't doing it himself in some of them) from others if it has not affected his sales? Obviously an honest person or someone with ethics that isn't a thief or isn't a greedy trash bag would put a stop to it. One bid retraction ban would be what a person with integrity does, but from my experience with Problemstein is that he has no integrity in my opinion.

I'm not at all surprised by this lack of response...we've seen it before...we'll see it again. I certainly appreciate you, Jeff L, for making this effort to help clean up the hobby!

It's a legitimate analogy because you are saying you don't care whom he screws over as long as you don't get screwed over and can benefit from him. I never said it was your post. I said it was posts like yours.



He will never do this because it won't make him money, at least not in the short run.




I'd have a better chance at surviving a gun shot than be nagged to death.

Thanks for posting that conversation Jeff. When this thread was first made, I was in the "I'd maybe bid on a Probstein item after doing some investigation and if it isn't an easy item to acquire elsewhere" camp. Now I'm clearly in the "No way in hell would I ever bid on a Probstein item" camp. There are so many people/auction houses selling pre-war cards so why would I support one that is obviously lacking in the ethics department? Hopefully this thread encourages others to take their money elsewhere because that is the most impactful thing we can do in this situation.

It would be interesting to see an anonymous poll as to whether or not these shilling allegations have had an impact in regards to collectors choosing to bid or not to bid in his auctions.

But what if he has stuff I NEED? Doesn't STUFF trump everything?:confused:(jk)

Sadly, that's how many see it until they get screwed over, and then come back to say Jebus help me!


I don't need anonymity. I will never do business with him again. From my experience with him, all I see is a weasel with no spine that will lie and cheat as much as he can to take what he can. It's safe to say I won't be joining his fan club any time soon.

Yes, David, it does. Except when it doesn't. I will not even consider a Probstein auction now. Unless he has something I really want. Then I will hold my nose and bid. If I refused to do business with every convicted felon, indicted alleged felon, or overall skeevy creep out there I'd never get any new cards. And that won't do. How do I die with the most toys if I don't play the game?

Interesting suggestion about seller-implemented rules. However, I am not sure eBay will allow you to enforce rules that go beyond its own rules.

"Jebus"? Is that the shuttle to Sunday Service?:D

You knows it stranga. Straight form Bug Tussle Tennessee I reckon. Sometimes these sellers make me angrier than a cockroach when the lights are turned on. :D

That's where the Beverly Hillbillies were from :D

lol :d