Yeah I am a bit confused too. I had never heard by anyone's account that Shelly was there. Yesterday I learned about character letters and today learned that there were a whole lot of people at PSA when the T206 Wagner was graded an 8.

Just think, if Hanky (Joe) Panky had handled the card it would have come back a "9".

Marty I share your experience as a lot of us have gone through the myriad of emotions over this whole mess, including surprise, denial, frustration and finally anger. I do wonder, though, how much his associates and employees have to worry about. It's not that I think that he will be a martyr and bite the bullet for the whole crew, but I am not sure there will be the all-encompassing web of justice you anticipate. Maybe someone will be indicted and get probation but I doubt anyone is going to get the whole story and all responsible individuals brought to justice. Hope I'm wrong....

Bill isn't biting the bullet for anyone. On the very day he was indicted in this case, his lawyer indicated he was cooperating with the feds. Bill Mastro is for one person: Bill Mastro. He's clearly pissed that he's receiving any grief for his crimes because, after all, this has been a tough time for him and his family.

I thought that in Catholicism, lying was considered a sin.

If you don't mind me asking, where was it announced that he was retiring and selling his sets?

I also want to say I do not think that all of mastro employees were doing criminal activity . I have friends at legendary that worked for mastro for years, they get the benefit of the doubt from me until I see what and if anything ever unfolds.

What? A Bill Mastro thread without some information gleaned from Michael O'Keeffe? This forum is really starting to slip. ;)

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-...icle-1.1482098

Quote from the article:

Prosecutors believe the scheme conducted by Mastro and his associates between 2002 and 2009 cost collectors between $400,000 and $1 million. Monico, who declined comment after the hearing, has said the scheme cost collectors between $30,000 and $70,000.

Are you not aware that two others were indicted?

Here is the thread that talks about it on the CU Forum.

http://forums.collectors.com/message...eyword1=spence

By the way, Greg, I have seen some of the Mastro bidding records. And wouldn't you know it, even some consignors shill bid their own lots. Even some people on this thread. Can you imagine that?

Very interesting Jeff, can you give us a hint without names? Let's say post number(s) :)

Tom, you got me...Bill and I made a killing on the Beanie Baby craze haha

So what's gonna happen to those people? That information should be released so we can all view it. Will that ever happen or will it be seals for some reason? I don't doubt that cons ignore shill their own items.

Richard....I'm thinking post 62.....

Probably people who bid in Mastro's auctions should consider hiring a lawyer (not me) to contact the court and see if these records can be released so that a determination of whether they were defrauded can be made. Or else a lawsuit against Mastro should be brought and the records subpoenaed. I'm not getting involved of any of it and honestly all I would like to see is for the crooks to disgorge their ill-gotten gains.

PS definitely poster #63.

I am shocked such things go on. :cool:

I have a question -

Did the Mastro auctions bidding system allow them (Bill and his crew) access to who was bidding and how much they were bidding, including information regarding what the bidder top bids were?

I can remember a time where you had to either phone in a bid and no computers were used. I suppose that would give the auction house the ability to really hose over their bidders.

Perhaps I'm a bit naive and I always believed that most of the top auctions were always on the level.

The shill bidding bugs me but the one thing that I've been finally waiting to hear is what everybody seems to have known about for a long time - the trimmed Wagner.

Maybe Bill will have some time to reflect when he's in his cell and maybe he'll come to terms with what he did and own up to what he did.

Answer: YES

That may be true for some posters, but I'm positive it's not true for others. It's difficult to kick Bill Mastro and others when they're down when you have no idea whether they defrauded you. Plus, you have only 5 years from the time to file a suit or you're out of luck.

This hobby is drenched with fraudsters, but I won't give up on collecting. Screw them for their awful behavior. I'll outlast them.

Bill

That the Wagner was rumored/alleged/accused of being trimmed was the about worst kept secret in the hobby for years. It ranked up there with 'ESPN chatboard talk Barry Bonds might have used PEDs.' It was openly talked about, even joked about, on this board and even the PSA board. Keith O. made snide remarks. To now say that this hobby bigwig or that hobby bigwig didn't know about these allegations is silly. That's why I posted my 'lack of common sense post.' If a 17 year old collector in small town Oklahoma heard stories the card was trimmed, it's hard to believe an industry insider was ignorant of the stories. Or, some might suggest, that they buyers didn't know.

The card was, at least for some, a commodity. Like hog bellies. If it brought a return, it brought a return.

PSA exists today as service for resellers and investors. That's what they are, that's how the describe themselves. They overtly advertise the financial benefits of getting your collectibles holdered by them. Average Joe eBay sellers on the CU board ponder aloud if it's worth their financial/resale investment to get such and such card graded-- or perhaps that issue is better to be graded by Beckett.

If you asked me what is the #1 thing I dislike about the art and collectibles industry, it's easy for me to answer: This money stuff. I'm no socialist, I understand collectibles have financial value, I've resold collectibles, if someone wants $10,000 for his baseball bat that's fine by me, if an auction house wants a 15% profit return in the next year I understand that. But turning the hobby into Money magazine, NYSE, investing clubs, is an entire turnoff. It's Donald Trump tacky. It's QVC. It's bad ESPN programming. There's a reason I don't own a television.

That is what makes you a socialist in my book! :D

Bill, prices have been inflated going forward for every shilled item in a Mastro auction as falsely high values are assigned to these cards. Even if somehow you bid in a Mastro auction and did not get shilled by Bill and the gang, you still felt the bite of their fraud down the road. In addition, the falsely high prices Mastro got in his auctions surely caused other auction houses to shill bid as well or allow consignors to run wild on their lots in an effort to keep up with the high prices and maintain or get new consignors.

Just for the record, I watched a 1930s Laurel and Hardy comedy on my laptop last night.

My vote for best/favorite Laurel and Hardy short (sitcom length) is 1931's 'Chickens Come Home.' Hardy is a married big cty politician and businessman running for mayor, when his past, in the form of an old gold digging girlfriend, enters his office. Blackmail, high society chaos and even gunfire follows. Co-stars vintage comic greats James Finlayson (butler), Thelma Todd (Hardy's blonde wife) and Mae Bush (the brunette femme fatale-- below). Available for free on youtube.

http://www.silentfilmstillarchive.co...me_home012.jpg

How do we know that this is not going on today?? We see it on ebay with bidders that have numerous bid retractions, and i am sure it is happening in other auctions as well.
Guess the big question is how do we assure that the consumer/bidder is protected in these auctions??
Should there be an independent council that monitors the big auctions?
Should the duration of bidding be shortened to 2-3 days max not 5 weeks?

Looking forward to other suggestions??
Maybe some auction houses can even suggest how do we make sure that our bids are not being shilled.

How do we know that this is not going on today??

If you suspect it, stop participating.
Why would they stop if we don't.
Therein lies the problem.

Hi Jeff,
Yes, i have for one stop bidding on items that are being sold by some sellers on ebay. It is easier to at least see the bidding trend or the bidders on ebay. However we have no clue in the auctions that are off ebay.

Big +1

The trimmed Wagner
 

I wanted to clarify a couple of things I read here. I was not present when Bill Hughes took part in grading the trimmed Wagner for PSA. However, Bill Hughes came to my home both before and after he had graded the card. Shelly was present both times. Before the card was graded, I told Bill that the card had been trimmed and should not be graded. Later, after he informed me that the card had been graded, I asked Bill how a trimmed card could be graded. He told me that the measurements of the card were within the acceptable tolerances. I informed him that the skinnier T206s were all American Beauty backs. His response to me was "well, we had to grade it."

I was present when Shelly called McNall's office. He made the call from my home phone and I was the person who had bet him on whether he would call or not.

I've always wondered why no one has explored the McNall/Hall connection when it came to grading this card in the first place. Bruce McNall had made his "fortune" dealing in rare ancient coins and, of course, David Hall was a long time dealer in coins who founded PCGS for the grading of coins. Incidentally, Bill Hughes told me that his grandparents had acquired loads of coins in their pawn shop and had dealt with David Hall quite often, which is why and how Bill became connected to David Hall and his new company, PSA.

No disrespect, but who are you? And are you saying Shelly was with you and not present when the card was graded?

The trimmed Wagner
 

My apologies. I am the Bill Heitman referred to in Shelly's post. I don't know where Shelly was at the time the card was graded, but I know he was at my home during the two conversations I mentioned with Bill Hughes.

Oh--I am also the author of "T206 The Monster" which is where everyone got the name "The Monster" for the T206 set. That was more than 33 years ago, a time when I was the only collector in America who collected T206 by the backs and series'.

Sorry I didn't introduce myself.

Thanks for posting this and welcome aboard. If this is true, then I find PSA's actions extremely disturbing to say the least and the "rendering an opinion" defense seems very feeble at this point.

David really? Like a little mustard with your foot sandwich? :mad:

A venial sin, but not a mortal sin... perhaps?

say my name!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Oxux1o2rQ

I would asume if you felt you where taken in anyway by Mastro. You could ask the DA if you are on the list of people that know about.. I would think that these are now open records since he has plead guilty.One other thing that
I have not read is did the Judge order restitution to the harmed partys.

Huh?? Because I never heard of BH or his book? And why the mad face?

I'm sure Doug Allen is dry cleaning his proffer suit in an effort to unload on PSA in order to save himself. Just a hunch.

With all this talk of trimming , does anyone else come to mind ? Anybody remember some of the hobbies bad boys.

When you inhabit a board that is dominated by T206 conversation it's like not knowing the Mona Lisa was painted by DaVinci. :D

Plenty of people come to mind.

Thank you Dan well said. Like having John Glenn chime in via an Aerospace chat board to be followed by "excuse me who are you, and what's your deal anyway?".....

oh.:rolleyes:

I am sure David is far from the only one, even in this community.

Well, not knowing who Bill H. is might not be so surprising except that his name is right next to his post...

Pete: "Heisenberg."

http://photos.imageevent.com/exhibit...eaking-bad.jpg

Bill, as a new Monster chaser myself, it is an honor to have you on the forum.

I was happy to find your book available on Ebay. It's ordered, so soon I'll be able to learn from your extensive knowledge.

Welcome aboard!

Bill

GREAT POST, thanks

Oh Jeeze! Perhaps I should be banned for not knowing who wheitman is.

thanks for posting here, but this part I don't think ted Z would agree with...:)

David---just one more wheitman on the board.

No, but maybe for not doing the simplest bit of research on him. At the time you asked him who he was he had a grand total of 6 posts. His second post mentions that he wrote a book called The Monster in 1980, his third post mentions compiling lists in 1979. With this information you might have some clue that you are talking with someone who has been around the hobby for a while and might have some idea of what he was talking about.

Or then again you could have just reread Shelly's original post about being there with Bill Heitman and figured that it might be someone related to wheitman.

ha ha ha ha......excelllent!!!!! Very VERY very Funny!!!! Great!:D:D:D:D