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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko (Post 1174784)

I believe there was much less abundant fraud when I bought cards from *bay back in the days prior to rampant grading.

While I don't totally agree with this statement, I do agree that TPG have given scammers a new avenue that wasn't there before. TPG has cut down on a lot of doctoring, but has opened up new worlds of fraud in other ways.....and it all nets out zero (except, of course, for that $17/card they now charge).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1174498)

ALTERING cards is not fraud. Altering and then saying they aren't, is fraud. It's a slippery slope and I abhor the altering (major altering) that goes on. However, if I trim a card and then submit it to any grading company, and they numerically holder it, I have not committed fraud. The grading company has made a mistake...and unless they KNEW it was altered and still graded it numerically, they didn't commit fraud either. I am not a lawyer but I think fraud generally has to do with deception. And you won't be prosecuted in our hobby, generally speaking, for being incompetent.

And for the record I have been told, by respected sources, that most authorities aren't jumping at baseball card trimming/altering cases. That being said, I wish they were and I wish fraudsters would get a heavier hand than they seem to.

Leon,

Actually on some of these points, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.

You are right that trimming a card and sending it to grading company isn't fraud in itself - unless you sell the card then it probably is fraud. In the legal arena, there can be criminal fraud and civil fraud. Civil fraud is easier to prove. There is fraud by deliberate deception and also fraud by non-disclosure.

In Texas the elements of a cause of action for fraud by nondisclosure are:

(1) the defendant failed to disclose facts to the plaintiff;
(2) the defendant had a duty to disclose those facts;
(3) the facts were material;
(4) the defendant knew the plaintiff was ignorant of the facts and the plaintiff did not have an equal opportunity to discover the facts;
(5) the defendant was deliberately silent when it had a duty to speak;
(6) by failing to disclose the facts, the defendant intended to induce the plaintiff to take some action or refrain from acting;
(7) the plaintiff relied on the defendant's nondisclosure; and
(8) the plaintiff was injured as a result of acting without that knowledge.

Reservoir Syst., Inc. v. TGS–NOPEC Geophysical Co., L.P., 335 S.W.3d 297, 306 (Tex.App.-Houston [14th Dist.] 2010, pet. denied)

The key issue is if trimming or some other type of alteration is a material issue. In the case of consumer fraud, courts have ruled that a "deception is material, in that it is likely to influence the consumer’s purchasing decision". To me, if someone trims a card that clearly will improve the appearance, then it's a material change, since knowing that the card has been significantly altered will influence my decision to purchase the card.

You are right in that law enforcement has been reluctant to prosecute these types of cases. I've learned that lesson the hard way. I believe the biggest problem with doctored graded cards are chain a custody issues since the card passes through so many hands.

With all of this said, it appears the most effective avenue for exposing these kinds of activities has been this forum, Net54Baseball.com and once again I commend you for moderating this forum and not backing down on the fraudsters when they get exposed. Keep up the fantastic work.

Great post Dan Markel.
While it's nice we share some of this fraudulent actiity on here, I think it's also important to bring it to law enforcements attention when we discover it. As you know, the "squeaky" wheel will eventually get some attention. It doesn't take much to make a phone call to the local D.A. and/or A.G. to report this type of fraud. And, who knows...maybe one of "bored" investigators or interns or whatever will take some interest in it and get the ball moving on some of these scumbags...

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby (Post 1175025)

Leon,

Actually on some of these points, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.

You are right that trimming a card and sending it to grading company isn't fraud in itself - unless you sell the card then it probably is fraud - depending on the severity of the trimming. In the legal arena, there can be criminal fraud and civil fraud. Civil fraud is easier to prove. There is fraud by deliberate deception and also fraud by non-disclosure.

In Texas the elements of a cause of action for fraud by nondisclosure are:

(1) the defendant failed to disclose facts to the plaintiff;
(2) the defendant had a duty to disclose those facts;
(3) the facts were material;
(4) the defendant knew the plaintiff was ignorant of the facts and the plaintiff did not have an equal opportunity to discover the facts;
(5) the defendant was deliberately silent when it had a duty to speak;
(6) by failing to disclose the facts, the defendant intended to induce the plaintiff to take some action or refrain from acting;
(7) the plaintiff relied on the defendant's nondisclosure; and
(8) the plaintiff was injured as a result of acting without that knowledge.

Reservoir Syst., Inc. v. TGS–NOPEC Geophysical Co., L.P., 335 S.W.3d 297, 306 (Tex.App.-Houston [14th Dist.] 2010, pet. denied)

The key issue is if trimming or some other type of alteration is a material issue. In the case of consumer fraud, courts have ruled that a "deception is material, in that it is likely to influence the consumer’s purchasing decision". To me, if someone trims a card that clearly will improve the appearance, then it's a material change, since knowing that the card has been significantly altered will influence my decision to purchase the card.

You are right in that law enforcement has been reluctant to prosecute these types of cases. I've learned that lesson the hard way. I believe the biggest problem with doctored graded cards are chain a custody issues since the card passes through so many hands.

With all of this said, it appears the most effective avenue for exposing these kinds of activities has been this forum, Net54Baseball.com and once again I commend you for moderating this forum and not backing down on the fraudsters when they get exposed. Keep up the fantastic work.

Hey Dan
That was possibly the best post I can remember, from someone disagreeing with me. And actually, if someone trimmed a card, got it numerically graded, and then sold it..... it certainly would/could be fraud. (if that is what you were saying?) Those elements look like fairly low barriers to proving fraud. Thanks for posting them. Thanks for the kind words on the forum too. The other mods and I appreciate it.

Probstein puts ''trimmed'' in item title...

....The only seller I've ever seen who adds the phrase '' likely trimmed'' to the title of a graded card auction is Rick Probstein ; if he/they are suspicious they share that to the buyers.... with the volume though , it is certainly possible that something gets past them...
.... you can search his ''sold'' and/or ''completed'' graded sportscards for the keyword '' trimmed''....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 1175032)

And actually, if someone trimmed a card, got it numerically graded, and then sold it..... it certainly would/could be fraud.

For the life of me, I don't, nor have I ever, understood this statement. At some point, either in a collector's lifetime or not, these cards will get sold. Therefore, according to this logic, altering a card at any point is condemning someone (whoever that end seller may be) to a fraudulent act.

Therefore, the argument for it to be ok to alter a card that you (not you, Leon, but anyone) intend to keep is bogus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 1175077)

Not at all.

I have a few cards that are trimmed. One T206 was at one point rather tall. I'm positive it wouldn't have fit the pages available in the 80's. In fact, it's still too tall despite being trimmed. I'm sure that it was trimmed so it wouldn't stick out of the page too far. That was both common and unfortunate. (And more common on E90-1s)

But I bought the card as trimmed.
The trimming is really obvious.
Someday when I replace it, I'll sell it as trimmed. Perhaps in an "A" holder, perhaps not.

No fraud.

Now if some future buyer re-trims it and sells it without disclosure, or does it well enough to pass a grading company, that's a problem.
The key is in the representation.

Steve B