...to whomever received the card knowing it wasn't his or her card. You can't keep a rightful owner from his or her property. Most criminal laws are based primarily on common sense. It is shady for a reason.

Doesn't exist in Florida.

Exactly. A few of the posters here have already convicted the seller as the thief.:eek:

To put the ethics discussion aside for just one post- is there a link to the original auction?

My buddy's not familiar with Florida statutes, but he said it'll be covered in the chapter containing theft and related offenses.

What if Chris didn't see the listing? Answer: he wouldn't get it back and somebody (the receiver of the property) would profit.

Fair enough.

Still, Buckler said he notified the ebay seller, so I am curious to see what they have to say when they do answer him.

In the event he is the one who accidentally got the card in the mail, and is now trying to sell it, that is absolutely pathetic.

I hope that is not the case, and that it played out as you said.

Either way, Buckler got screwed and deserves some justice.

Derek Hogue

Um, if someone sent you something by mistake and you sold it you'd be converting someone else's property to your own. Similarly, if a bank mistakenly puts $1 million in your bank account and you withdraw it and keep it, you're committing a crime. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact.

The difference there though is the card shipped to this person was obviously in his name and address, otherwise it wouldn't of ended up at his doorstep. I'm assuming he was a customer of the auction house and they somehow switched up who won what auction.

So this means the auction house intended for him to receive the card, and he is fully entitled to keep it. You can't ship something to someone then say it is stolen property when the act of shipping it is giving the item to them...

If a bank puts additional money in your account then that is because of a database error that was not consented to. This issue would be resolved pretty fast and if you withdrew the money before it was fixed, you would go into debt and owe the bank money.

The point here is that this is a mistake on the auction house's end and the receiver of the card is a jerk, but not a completely illegal criminal in the most basic definition. Who knows what could happen if he was taken to court though..

+1

I just noticed whit all of my posts, I still neglected to say how sorry I am for your troubles, Chris. I hope you get some justice.

Kevin selling the Cobb aside, wouldn't the Auction House be on the hook for the cash value, at least? I know that doesn't get Ty into your collection but it beats a poke in the eye.

Going by that same logic, if my voter registration gets sent to the wrong address they can vote in my place for the next election.

I think it applies in cases of mis-delivery. I'm not sure if the packing and shipping process also counts as delivery though. But I'd be inclined to think that with SCL being the auction house, that they never factor into the "ownership", only the "possession" of the item. And I think that would make them part of the delivery process involved in the card changing "ownership".

I'm no attorney though, just a lowly Ironworker...

Kevin
 

Kevin is out of the country until Feb 18th so I'm guessing he won't respond for a while.

No because your name would still be on the registration. This is an error on UPS's (or whatever shipping company) part and not whoever issues the registrations.

In this case, the auction intended for say "bob" to receive the card because they filled out the mailing envelope with bob's information and gave consent to give him the item, shown by the fact presumably the mail came in his name and address. For bob, this item was a free gift and nothing more.

The auction house made an internal mistake, and they cannot force whoever they sent to the card to, to go run to the post office and ship it back.

Bob didn't initiate this "crime", the auction house did. Are you going to take him to jail because he got a package in the mail and decided to sell the contents? I'm sure SCL has contacted him, but again, he did nothing legally wrong. If bob initiated this "crime" by hacking into SCL's network, then (aside from hacking) that would be a crime because his intention was to defraud someone else. This is an error on the auction house's part.

I'm not a lawyer or anything but I have had similar experiences in the past and I think the line between ethics and legalities is a very thin one, so I could be wrong I suppose. This is just my opinion.

Bryan

flavius. Check the laws on "unjust enrichment"...

Again, I'm not sure who's out on this. I think it's the auction house. Because I believe they would be responsible for both reimbursing the buyer, and the seller for the money's lost by their mistake. If the buyer doesn't get refunded, then I believe he would be the rightful claimant in a case. If the buyer get reimbursed, but the seller doesn't get paid, then I believe he would be the claimant in a case. And if SCL both pays out the seller, and re-imburses the buyer, then they would be the ones ultimately out the money, and they would become the claimant...

I do not know if the seller received the card from SCL or if they purchased the card from the receiver of the shipment. Either way we will likely know on Monday if SCL divulges who they believe to be the recipient. However I do know SCL has reached out to the possible recipient and have gotten no response/answer. All I know is that I won a card at auction and the card was accidently sent to the wrong winner and they are not responding to SCL. I never stated anything about legal action. I just wanted to let everyone know that the card I won is now for sale by a seller who did not win or pay for this card. The seller is likely the receiver of a shipping mix-up by SCL. I have spoke to SCL and they have been nothing but very professional and apologetic. I know they are doing everything they can to recover the card for me. This has gone much further than I ever expected. After reading all your posts I do not know if there is anything technically illegal or not. SCL has told me they will offer me a refund if they cannot locate the card for me. I believe the seller is likely the recipient of the card from SCL as they have not responded to my messages plus they have grossly exaggerated the cards condition in their description.

Chris Buckler

The buyer won and paid for the card. If paid through PayPal there would be a email. If paid through check there would be a paper trail. The invoice most likely stated the correct buyers name, who it was sent to is irrelevant.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure the only form of mail recognized by a court of law is registerd mail.

Sir or ma'am,

Do you reckon the receiver of the card knew if he or she should have received the card? You're articulating reasons to do the wrong thing here.

When is someone going to require Flavius to post his full name like the rest of us? :confused:

Steve Murray

We need a new card for Monopoly:

"Auction House Error in your Favor"
"Do Not Return, feel free to Sell or Consign"

That Field of Dreams thread Moonlight Graham said he was working on is going to be good! I love that movie! Well, I like it...a little. Couldn't find it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhpB1X-6ok

Sincerely, Clayton

Law may not be uniform but there is certainly a crime of theft of property delivered by mistake.

Clearly you're not a criminal lawyer nor did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Jeff everyone is entitled to an opinion about how the states define crimes.

True, true, how could I forget. What would statutory crimes be without personal interpretation and unilateral determination?

I know that this has nothing to do with the issue but has anyone noticed that the description of the card is talking about Hughie Jennings and not Ty Cobb?

Don't confuse people who have opinions with facts.

If you click on his name it is in his signature there. He and I pm'd about it a few times today. It's not perfect but I am fine with that.

"i'd rip that pig a new one" :)

priceless. Thanks Clayton.

:D I know I should'nt be making jokes in this thread, but I couldn't help it with the Flav :)

Chris, I do hope you get your card back or at least compensation, and I hope you weren't offended by the YT link.

Sincerely, Clayton

Kevin
 

I sent Kevin a link to this thread. Here is his response:

i want to apologize for any confusion. I am currently out of the country and my auctions are being handled at this time by my son in the states. he has posted a number of cards that have been received at my absence. I am happy to pull the card from listing and will return it to your offices when I return to the USA on february 19th.

i apologize for any confusion and will rectify the issue upon my return.

kevin koffman

#65
Yesterday, 07:15 PM
flavius
member

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 16

. "This is an error on UPS's (or whatever shipping company) part and not whoever issues the registrations."

How is this the shipping companies fault? They delivered it as addressed. Should they have used a crystal ball and figured out the inside contents were meant for someone else? Clearly an honest mistake by the AH.

Richard Lapointe

That's interesting. His son didn't know how much his dad paid for the cards? And if he assumed they actually paid for the Cobb, it would be reasonable to sell it for nearly $200 less? Obviously son is experienced at buying/selling too, and I wish them the best in their family business.

You know, when people commit theft, they articulate to themselves beforehand why they are committing theft. But most importantly, they develop contingency plans in case they're caught.

Using this example, if it would've been theft, the thief may plan to say, "oops, didn't realize that very important and expensive card was mixed in with my other less important cards. Typed it up and scanned it but low and behold I didn't realize..."

He may plan to say, "It wasn't me! My daddy did it!"

He may say, "It's the auction house's fault! I didn't pay for it and didn't want it but they sent it anyway. Finders keepers!"

And again, these things are planned in case the thief gets caught, and if this was just a case of ignorant people:), ignorant of having a Cobb rookie by mistake, country bound or not....if it was a theft, the thief was busted and had to rely on the contingency. So glad it's going to be rectified at Kevin's convenience, and very glad this isn't going to be a theft. But more than anything, I'm glad Chris saw his card listed for sale well below what he paid for it.

So, Rick, while you may be immediately pleased, I see things differently. Too much TV I guess. Thanks for posting. My dissonance has not decreased yet, so forgive my blabbering. And here I was thinking the modern man would rearrange the scenario in order to help another bad guy be a victim. That's it; no more tv!

Sorry that happened to you and your son, Kevin! What country Kevin? Business or vacation? Looking forward to hearing about it. Be safe brother!

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but the listing has ended.

Richard,

He was responding to a comment made by someone who thought people have to register as a voter and present such registration in order to vote.

Hi Greg,
 

Hi Greg,
I am not pleased at all. Just posting his response. I do not know Kevin although I do remember purchasing a few items from his ebay store a few years ago when I was putting together a low grade set of 33 Goudeys. I sent him the link through the ebay messaging system and his response was through the ebay messaging system.

My personal feeling is that something is rotten in Denmark. :rolleyes:

Rick

Roger that. Thanks Rick

Flavius
 

Flavius, My daughter recently lost a wallet in a department store that contained over $200.00 in it ,along with her drivers licence and school ID. The person who found it never returned it. My daughter had just gotten her licence 6 months earlier . My son happened to be Home from college for the Chrismas Break and found a Wallet while shopping for gifts at Lord and Taylor. The wallet had over $600.00 IN CASH AND CREDIT CARDS along with the persons ID. When he came home he emmidiately looked up the person and contacted the lady who lost the wallet and returned it with all of the cash.
The person who found my daughters wallet had your idea of what one should do (Finders Keepers) Not thier fault ... My son had my idea of what to do when you find or recieve something that does not belong to you.

Some People jUst Do the right THing while others are Just Sleeze


Thats my 2 cents.
John Perrotta

John,

You have to take a little credit here. Your son was raised with the right values. :)

So true John. Nice parenting on your part. Admittedly I had little parenting as a child, due to very unfortunate circumstances, and made some poor choices growing up. On the other hand I am quite confident my 16 yr old daughter would make the same decision your son did. Kudos to you and he.

Flavius, even thinking like you do shows your true character. You are someone I, and I am sure many others, would just assume not deal with. You don't step over a dime to pick up a penny! You will lose more money by destroying your reputation than the item you got for "free" from that dealer/auction house that was just dying to give you the card they obviously wanted you to have for free when they filled out the shipping address on the envelope when two seconds of investigation would show that the item belongs to someone else. Using the law to try to justify incorrect behavior because it skirts around the law is shortsighted at best.

There is a long-time collector of Zeenut cards out there that I have traded with on several occassions, typically when I have cards he needs he will send me his entire stock of duplicates (usually 100-150 cards) and it is understood that if I am taking any of his I need I then have to replace the ones I take with ones he needs. By your warped sense of morality since he addressed that package to me, dammit, those are now my cards!?! When dealing with other collectors through the mail there is implicit trust involved and you, Flavius, are NOT to be trusted given the apparent way your brain functions.

This hobby is a very small place and once a reputation has been soiled or ruined it is very difficult to get it back. There are examples of people that used to frequent this board that have all but disappeared due to various shady and/or unethical acts, most of us do this for fun and when you deal with losers it isn't fun.

(That being said, it is still possible to make a living in this hobby with a terrible reputation as d-bags are still out there and apparently someone likes them?)

Classic, now the auction house is the one that initiated a "crime" by MAKING A MISTAKE while the one receiving the package did no wrong keeping the item after he MADE THE DECISION to keep ill gotten gains!

stolen card
 

I posted the story about my son returning the wallet becuase I am hoping that the seller of the card sees what doing the right thing is vs making a fast dishonest buck. I hope that he didnt pass hIS behavior down to his son who is listing the items for him while he is supposidly out of the country.. We all make mistakes but the key is to learn from them and pass down the right ways to our kids.Or At Least Try To.

Regards
John P

[I]Reminds me of the Yogi-ism when asked what he'd do if he found a million dollars: "If the guy was poor, I'd give it back." :D

Don't forget the legal precedent set in the landmark Finders v. Keepers case :D

I am currently taking a class on Business Law. Below is a quote from the textbook which I find appropriate here. Please know that I am not throwing daggers at anyone. I am merely weighing in on where I stand regarding the issue of what is ethical versus what a person is legally required to do.

"Ethical behavior is based on more than meeting minimum legal requirements. It invariably involves a higher, moral standard."

When I mistakenly wind up with something that's not mine, and it can realistically be returned to its rightful owner, I will give it back...every time. Whether discovering that the lid from my neighbor's trash can blew over onto my lawn or finding someone's wallet on the ground in a parking lot, I make sure the item finds its way back to where it belongs.

In this particular case, to anyone receiving somebody else's baseball card in the mail, just give it back. It's the right thing to do. Period.

Best Regards,

Eric

Thank you, Jeff; I needed a good laugh.

Ummm, this link might state a little bit about the seller's ethics and whether he knew what he might have been selling:

http://www.thesunchronicle.com/news/...d47c6de33.html