(no message) was trying to be sarcastic/funny.

Since we are talking about eBay vs. auction houses, this PWCC auction for a 1913 Shoeless Joe National Game card is, um, interesting. The current high bidder has 77 total bids in the last 30 days, and all 77 of those bids have been with PWCC.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350703421457...=p5197.c0.m619

I was told by a member that they were bidding up their own item that was listed in a "major" auction house auction. I was a bit flabbergasted to hear the admission and then I came to the realization that all auctions are probably rigged. :(

Paul:

You've held this one-minded opinion for quite some time. You've espoused it over and over and over and over and no matter what logical rationale anyone presents, you insist that your opinion is the RIGHT ANSWER.

You've been challenged to present an alternative. Identify how to run an auction house with transparency that still manages to protect the privacy of the bidder.

You come off as the self-professed answer to all that is wrong with the hobby and shout out endlessly about how important it is for collectors to have knowledge so that they don't overspend and in the same breath, you spent thousands to buy flips just for improving your Registry GPA without knowing or caring about the source of the product you are buying. Once you were enlightened, you've still denied it or spin-doctored it to your benefit.

To suggest that those spending hundred of thousands at auction for rare items via auction houses haven't done their homework or are unaware of the opportunity to be manipulated is a slap in the face to those that have forgotten more about the hobby and how it transacts than you will ever know.

To point a finger and accuse others while hiding behind your own selfishness just reinforces the cowardice and delusional importance you have placed upon yourself.

Entitled to your opinion? Certainly.

Being able to make blanket assumptions and throw around damning accusations without cause for being accountable. Absolutely not!

The is no CU moderator here to complain to and protect you and you'll find that your attitude, stubbornness and general ignorance won't fly too long.

Good luck...

Why
 

Why do you think you have a right to know what someone else is purchasing for their collection? I do not think you have this right nor should you.

My question is what is meant by 'transparency.' I'm against bidder's names being published, but perhaps what is meant is ebay-like nicknames or numbers.

I wouldn't bid at a place where my name is published. And I can understand why someone who won $300,000 worth of stuff and has a publicly available home address wouldn't want his name published. Publishing on the internet the name and address where $300,000 worth of stuff will soon be delivered-- now there's a smart idea.

And, besides, my dog has access to my computer. You could never prove the shilling was by me. Terriers are well known to be shifty.

I am not sure I have ever seen eye to eye with you but I wholeheartedly agree with this entire statement ... I learned a while ago otw knows what he is talking about...

What can an auction house do to retain folks trust? I am not talking about publishing bidder names that is ridiculous. We spend so much effort with conspiracies, but could there ever be trust? I believe that AH's are tried and convicted in the court of public opinion and they were not even invited to defend themselves. I saw a post about an admission where a consignor admitted shilling his own item. The OP jumps to an immediate conclusion that all AH's are rigged. No logical steps in between just pure conjecture. There is no way for an AH to know the activity of consignors. They may make up fake names, allow friends and family to bid, etc. I know I council every consignor on not bidding on their items and they sign a contract stating that they will not bid on such items. If I were to learn they bid on their own items they would no longer consign with me. What else can I do?

I thought Josh Evans had the only dog with opposable thumbs in the hobby. I stand corrected.

Sure the nickname solution is a good compromise, and the one that ebay went with. It still allows savvy shoppers to track bidding patterns and expose some of those who try and cheat.

Like I said there will be those who simply contradict what I say because they are too entrenched in their own beliefs that they cannot even consider another. This will always be the case, and is of no real concern as they are the small, but vocal, minority.

I've pointed out the major danger of dealing with AHs, and you would be wise to avoid them for big ticket items until they change how they work to a way that is safer for the buyer ... the above mentioned nickname strategy is a reasonable starting point.

You m'am, are a dimwit!

So you have beaten this campaign into the ground on other boards and now you are trying to take it here all the while accusing the board moderator of not having an open mind on this subject? Is it because he and many others refuse to believe as you do on this idea? Just freaking give it up and talk about cards and let this thing go. Or perhaps continue beating the drum over on the CU boards where you have the ear of the Mods who can poof any thread you deem to be not in agreement with your position. Go cry to Joe Orlando that the Net54 boards refuse to see it your way.

Geez this crap gets old very fast. Give it up woman!!

Paul:

Do you have any concept of the people that you're talking down to and trying to "educate" about auction houses? Some of these guys' single bid increments are more than your entire collection is worth. If you honestly think that they are so naive and unaware, then perhaps you are the one that needs to open your mind and look at this from another angle.

Dismissing those that challenge you as a "vocal minority" only reinforces your general disconnect with reality. Just because you believe something to be so, doesn't mean that it is right.

Again, rather than throw accusations and embellish your assumptions, lay out a legitimate plan of action that would protect the identity of the bidder AND eliminate the possibility of shilling by either the auction house or owner/bidders. Since you obviously have it all figured out, this shouldn't be too difficult -- albeit, a request that you continually ignore.

Definitely. And this is really the only current way that things are kept from flying apart at the seems as they currently are.

Only issue is, again for high profile cards, what is an "overbid"?

People get their concept of fair prices from previous sales. But if all of the previous sales came from the same suspicious forum, well then you have a problem. This is precisely why many high profile cards never make it to ebay, because sellers know they would take a dive ... or when they do make it to ebay, they consign the card so that they can bid on it. Now at least on ebay some detective work can be done when this happens.

You're gonna see some people lash out at me personally here, and that's because I'm challenging something that is probably near and dear to their hearts ... something they've based a lot of their collection on and now is being questioned ... and they simply can't handle it. It's just what happens ... and is fine. Thankfully this board has a nice ignore function :)

It's always clear to me when someone has a weak argument because they result to personal attacks, name calling and general immature behavior. This is the kind of stuff that got a lot of the same bad seeds either kicked off CU or reprimanded there. I'm glad PSA instituted their forum rules and have found posting their a lot more enjoyable since.

But yeah, as for overbidding, thankfully there are a lot of resources to use to come up with a comfortable price ... and it's easy enough to filter out the obvious balloons. A good example is the 1978 Topps #707 Rookie Shortstops PSA 10 card:

http://bubblebathgirl.com/images/cu/...78/707_vcp.jpg

You can clearly see how this card took a dive after coming back to reality on ebay after a stint at 2 of the AHs. Now it's reasonable for the card to have a certain increase in value as unopened material has dried up a lot, but this kind of pattern of buy high at AHs and sell low on ebay isn't uncommon for premium cards ... and there's certainly a reason for this.

The unfortunate thing is some online publications will take this latest hammer price and use that as an indicator of the new "value" of the card, when in this case, it's most likely just another balloon waiting to pop.

I see a lot of beating on the keyboard by BBG but yet there are no solutions offered. Maybe an axe to grind with AH cuz of lost auctions? Maybe sold something and didnt get the priced expected?

Im getting a headache from all the banging but who has the Motrin?

I still say that all the transparency in the world will not do anything to stop shilling.

All anyone can do is be smart with their money. If they believe they are being shilled, be smart enough to step away from the auction. If you are bidding the price you are happy to pay, keep bidding, shilling or not.

An opinion doesnt mean squat unless you have a solution to go with it.

This most definitely isn't true. Talk about incredible leaps in logic.

What is true is that most of the posts in this thread carry an hyper defensive tone. That is often a result of postings that hit too close to home.

Interesting thread.

I think this (and you) are now laughable.

A bit about me.......

I have NEVER placed a bid in an auction house auction. I honestly do not have the money to do so due to my spouse's illness.

I rarely bid in Ebay auctions and when I do it is usually a 10 dollar item so shill bidding is normally not an issue with me. My collection comes directly from what I have in my possession over my 40 years of collecting and face to face transactions at card shows.

Since I DO NOT bid in any auction house auctions and I rarely bid on Ebay I honestly dont give a crap about this issue. I am even more happy about the way I purchase anything for my collection after seeing the various Probstein threads on many boards and seeing how Mastro and others have treated bidders in their auctions. My beef with you is how you continue to beat the drum on this issue and REFUSE to even listen to anyone else's opinion and your continued resolve to show everyone else how freaking right you are.

You have made your point now move on. You have now posted your crap on two sections of the Net54 boards and all over the CU boards. Whats next? Blowout? FCB?

As for the ignore button on these boards....you dont need it because it seems your brain has everyone who doesnt buy into your way of thinking on ignore anyway!!

I recommend some other method for determining the strength of opposing arguments. Sometimes people 'result' to such tactics because they simply don't like you very much.

It may not be true in all cases but it fits here. But the fact is, what is an opinion without solution? It's called complaining or whining.

People can have their opinions and express them and that is always encouraged. Maybe they are looking for solutions. But when you have so much to say about it over and over again and offer nothing, its beating that dead horse and that doesnt appear to be so encouraged.

Well said John.

Thanks for posting the Munson cards as an example and looking at those they do look very suspect and I would refrain from bidding when I see things like that.

As I stated above, shilling and other crap happens everywhere but imo much more so on ebay. He is an example of a card I am currently watching that the pattern brings up a lot of red flags. Heck the card is for sale the 3rd time in less than 30 days, check out the bidders on the past auctions, also that many bidders with less than 100 feedback is more red flags, current bidding on new listing even more red flags, etc. You can find this daily on ebay and if not for services like VCP that can help point out these listing, I would be getting burned like I did in the past. I just wonder how many other collectors out there are getting taken in deals sales like this.

Here you go-
1911 Sporting Life TY COBB M116 (Pastel)

Current listing-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...item1c2fb6c057

VCP-
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...pricescopy.jpg

Link to last two sales-
1/24/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

1/13/13 Sale-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-11-Spor...p2047675.l2557

Funny how all three auctions have the exact same titles.....

Interested to see what others think about this as its not clear cut shilling but imo looks more like possible manipulation of pricing/value.

Paul, serious question here. Unless you already have me on ignore, perhaps you'll answer.

What is an acceptable response to your stance? "Paul, all this time I have been blind to what AHs are doing, but you have opened my eyes. I, too, call on all AHs to have a truly transparent bidding process." (or some variation of, "you are right").

There is zero wiggle room in your position. It's either your way, or no way. Saying people are too entrenched in their beliefs and will not consider another is a bit like a pot/kettle situation. I sincerely think you have considered other positions and believe you are right. However, isn't it possible that others have actually considered your position and believe you are wrong? Sure seems that in your view, since others don't agree, they obviously must not have taken time to consider... 'cause if they did, my goodness, the heavens would open and the birds would sing.

Paul,

When you consign something to an auction house they promote it, take it to shows and mail out catalogs. The prospective buyer sometimes has months to prepare. Listing on eBay is like dropping a needle in a haystack and hoping someone notices it within 7 days. Whoever notices it also needs to have the cash ready. You can't really compare the two as a level playing field.

agreed. What if I'm a big whale on a particular item and I'm on vacation for a week. If it was an auction, I would have received the catalog and had time to look at the preview. Discussions on message boards would have taken place and in the end I would know exactly when it was ending (date and time). Hard to compare that to someone listing an item on ebay on Tuesday at 8PM amongst their garden tools and tube socks.

As a side note the state of New York has begun the process to require that SELLERS be identified in auctions. Now this stems from art auctions and may or may not have any bearing on smaller auctions, but I am willing to bet if they infact enact it, ALL auctions in that state will be required to list the indentity of who the seller is. That would be a major headache for the auction lot with hundreds or thousands of lots, many by different consignors.

Did anyone else hear of this?

Or maybe it's a case of once the buyer with the most money bought his copy, he didn't need to bid on the second one. Then when the buyer with the second most money got his, he didn't need to bid on the third one.

Ignore is a convenient excuse to avoid answering.

Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they are resorting to insults or can't handle your assessment.

Knowledge is key. In many instances, there isn't enough recent information to extrapolate price points from "recent" sales. Sure, traveling in the modern circle presents a myriad of sales, but a majority on this board consider modern to be anything manufactured after WWII, not 1990...

Almost five racks for a Paul Molitor RC :eek:

The market is literally begging for card doctoring.

Well stated Matthew. Millions of bidders, but your auction only gets 100 views.

And it is often a different set of bidders - ebayers frequently lack knowledge about more esoteric items. Example:

Item I purchased from Hunt: Hunt - Ted Williams pool cue

The ebay sell last night: Ebay - Ted Williams pool cue

I am still trying to figure out why this issue is so important to Paul? There are probably only a couple of cards from the 78 and 79 topps baseball sets that are even worth sending to an AH and those are the only cards he collects anyways. I just don't get it......

That's a bummer Scott. Hunt's is kind of a wild card though... You know the rules over there.

I started the disagreement on post#2.
I wish it ended sooner, although there have been some much more eloquent counterpoints thrown out.

I hope this whole thing isn't based on PSA 9 and PSA 10 cards from 1978 and 1979. I haven't seen many of those in big Auction House offerings over the years. How much shilling is going on for the Biff Pocoroba and Dan Driessen cards? I ask because the ones in my 78 set are really, really nice (easily gem, pristine super mint) and I'd like to cash in my gold mine...without having to do my own bidding of course.

One thing would be to require the auction house to keep their bidding records, so they can be subpoenaed in case of lawsuit or the feds.

Interesting! i sold both my Mcdermott cue sticks for over 800 each a few years back and the best they could get is 550 for the one owned by Ted Williams?

Brian, although it has been a few years since I visited, I don't recall seeing anything resembling a square corner in your collection! :D

Definitely.

It's like if you see someone standing near you is gonna get hit by a car ... you pull them out of the way.

I see a lot of people in this hobby who have set themselves up to get run over by fake prices at AHs because they simply don't see it. Artificially bloated prices threaten any industry, just look what happened with the real estate market. There are people that cheat out there who undermine the legitimacy of this hobby. When the bubble bursts it's gonna be messy.

This threatens everyone who enjoys collecting these pieces of cardboard.

The solution is the same thing that has worked in many other industries, transparency and regulation. People need rules, and people need to be able to see what's going on so they can police things themselves.

Seriously....dont you think ANYONE who bids in an auction, regardless if it is an auction house or Ebay, know the risks? You would have to be a dolt not to see the risks in bidding in auctions and do not need someone to champion the cause. The good houses will have an excellent reputation and will continue to be profitable and the bad ones will fade away and have the government nipping at their heals. This hobby has seen this time and time again and yet you fail to see this and try to be that champion for this cause. All one has to do is look through back issues of SCD and other hobby publications to see how many auction houses have gone dark and see who the survivors are.

I think this is a cause that has you barking up trees that contain nothing to chase. Maybe it really is time to move on to something else and you can quit pulling people out from the front of those cars as maybe that person doesnt mind being hit now and then.

In my state if you are a licensed auctioneer you have to keep all records for 2 years. The problem is many "auction houses" have no auctioneer. This statement is no indictment to non-licensed auction houses who do a great job, but the unlicensed ones are tougher to discipline.

Instead of the blanket term auction houses, research across multiple cards and see if there is some statistical significance with a certain auction house(s) that appears shill friendly. At the same time, which auction house(s) appear to be non-shill friendly. If a shill friendly auction house surfaces, the obvious statement will be that we have the best reputation and marketing department in the land and thus have the most big shark accounts in the industry and these sharks don't like to buy on eBay. This may have some validity actually. So the data can be misleading and dangerous.

How about make a software program that cross references registered bidders i.e. phone numbers, addresses and if they are match they are black balled and published in perpetuity as shills. Doesn't help friends and family. Could do a reference for last names or maiden names of spouse, which all gets a little dicey, but could be refined. Then the auction house can claim they are the best in the business at ousting and preventing shilling and truly wants to help the hobby with sharing the information.

Funny so the auction above ended not reaching the reserve with this winner below, lol and already listed again-

4***p( 0 )
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 31
Items bid on: 15
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 87%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

That's messed up, and thanks to what I call "semi-transparency", ebay allows you to see this, and at least have some info to go on.

With the AHs this can be happening anywhere, and you'd have no idea, and no recourse.

1969 Topps #533 Nolan Ryan PSA 10
 

And here's ANOTHER example for ya:

http://bubblebathgirl.com/images/cu/bbc/ryan_69.jpg

Originally bought for $20,100.29 from Mile High Card Co on 10/25/12 .

Sold for $16,019.44 on ebay today (2/8/13) minus $1,121.36 (7% for PWCC) = $14,898.08 for a net of:

-$5,202.21

:eek:

Obviously making it up on volume... The new business model: buy high, sell low, but look good!

Let me state upfront that I have never sold anything on eBay, but I would think the only people you would "catch" shilling their own auctions would be the very stupid or the very lazy. I mean, an account with "0" or "1" feedback or nearly 100 percent bidding pattern with one seller is bound to set off red flags.

Seems like it would be obvious and very easy to cover your tracks when shilling on eBay simply by buying and bidding on other cards besides your own.

Im only posting this bc people were saying they photo shop the cards.
I saw this card and didnt know what was going on with the boarder.
Is it just the scan of was this a white out type of thing??
Very odd looking. Im talking about the top boarder towards the right.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-L...p2047675.l2557

Ebay allows it to simply be part of a seller's business model. Add it to that the fact that people right here on this board think it's perfectly okay, and there's really zero chance of stopping it. Some sellers have been so brazen as to send out spam emails (I received one), stating that they run only 99 cent starting bid auctions, and insinuating that those who use the BIN store model are somehow dishonest, while in fact, the BIN store sellers are the ONLY sellers who have no reason whatsoever to shill.

So if I interpret the Molitor RC and 69 Ryan examples as intended... Anytime a card sells for less on eBay or elsewhere than it did at an AH, it is clear proof of nefarious practices by the AH?

That's some pretty specious logic there. It could be the reason, but there are many other factors that could account for a depreciation, and proving which one is at play is impossible.

Matt, the point is that it's simply safer to bid on ebay thanks to their semi-transparent bidding which makes it harder for shills to artificially inflate prices like they can with AHs and their blind bidding.

The results of these high value/profile cards support my position ... as does common sense.

But if the seller of the Ryan wanted to shill it to value X on eBay, couldn't he do it just as easily through a shill or friend's account? Six here and a half dozen there, seems to me. A clever shiller can use a very convincing, inconspicuous account, rendering an eBay auction as compromised as any other.

When it comes to a card depreciating from AH to eBay, you can definitely choose to view that as proof supporting your position, but that is also conveniently ignoring all the other factors that could be contributing to the price drop.

End of the day, I just love cards and try and not to let stuff like this chafe me about my hobby. Life outside cards presens enough headaches.

Going back to the OPs initial comments, it seems he was suggesting that AHs are possibly more prone/prevelant to have shilling and other improper activities occur in regards to their auctions than Ebay, be it the AHs themselves, or their consignors, responsible for the deemed illicit activities.

Others have pointed out that it is improper, and just not good business sense, for the AHs to be completely open in providing personal data on bidders and contacts they have, which is true. There is a possible solution that could be employed by AHs to impart a greater sense of responsibility in how they conduct their businesses and to show to bidders that they actively attempt to discourage and guard against shilling and other improper auction actions, and thereby instill greater trust amongst those who would use them.

The accounting profession for a couple decades has sanctioned a specialized type of audit that CPAs can perform to test internal controls and procedures of services organizations, specifically on the work/services they provide to their customers. It was originally supposed to be only when the customer was having an audit done on their own books but, after the likes of Enron and Bernie Madoff, people/companies began asking for these types of audit reports more often just to make sure they weren't getting screwed. The accounting profession just in the last couple years changed this specialized reporting and call it a SOC (pronounced - sock) report. Stands for Service Organization Control reports. An AH could hire a CPA/accounting firm to come in, review their controls and procedures around their auction/biddng process and see what they're doing to prevent/discourage shill bidding and other disreputable practices that people have concerns about. The CPA/auditor could then issue a report and describe the internal controls/procedures in place, actually run tests to see the controls/procedures are functioning as expected, and report on the same. The AH could then provide this report to users of their service to document what they are doing to prevent disreputable activities, without disclosing private information concerning bidders and business practices. The CPA/auditor is a licensed professional subject to confidentiality/ethics rules, and would not be able to disclose such private info and must maintain impartiality and independence with respect to the AH being audited.

Would not necessarily stop or always detect collusive activities or consignors from trying tricks but, at elast you would have an idea what the AH was doing to prevent such problems, and whether they were doing enough in your own opinion. It is a lot more believable than just hearing an AH say they are doing everything they can to prevent disreputable activities in regards to their auctions.

Bob C