Thanks Peter.

Edited to remove some content. After reading Ben's post in the other thread, I'm thinking this is a subject where 99% of the board are totally ignorant. I've retracted my decision to share anything with such people.

Hearing the news of this senseless tragedy makes me sick to my stomach. The school bus could not get my 5 year old daughter back to me fast enough today!

Obviously everyone is saddened and upset about what has happened today,but regardless which side you are on the gun control topic can wait. Just my opinion.

At this time I can only think of the families and what they are going through! My thoughts and prayers are with them!

We could become like Afghanistan where we ban certain forms of cultural entertainment, or we could become like the rest of the developed world where we could ban assault weapons. Tough call.

That's true, but you have to remember that the order is: sympathy for the victims, fix the symptoms, vengeance. Some people are already at 'fix the symptoms' stage, which is understandable.

Making it illegal to own "X" gun is pretty much ignoring it - it is a solution designed to make the supporters feel good that they are "doing something" about the problem. I lived in Chicago for a few years, and the gun laws are quite tough there (a good thing, IMO), but that doesn't prevent people there from killing each other at an alarming rate. Gun laws, however well intentioned, don't work so well when parts of society have no intention of following them.

The larger problem is a kind of societal rot, with gun violence as a symptom. There are too many kids growing up in broken homes, and many others whose parents have checked out and don't take their job with the seriousness that it deserves. Even growing up in the suburbs, I was amazed at how many of my friends had parents who had no clue how to talk to them - they were essentially raised by television and Nintendo. Those kids often grow up emotionally stunted, not feeling that they have anyone that they can really talk to, and I would suspect that many of the spree shooters that we've been seeing more of were raised in those circumstances.

I'm all for improving mental health care but while we are doing that, I don't see the upside to preserving the ability to buy assault weapons or our lax gun control laws. The Second Amendment doesn't mean one cannot heavily regulate.

Scott, do you also think we shouldn't have speed limits on our roads and highways because although speeding is dangerous and causes death, it is just a mere symptom of underlying emotional problems?

For that matter, why have any laws at all if all of society's negative symptoms can be cured by some sort of therapeutic process?

This event is very different from past mass murders, at least to me. I'd be very surprised if this in not the event that brings on some sort of change. I don't think an assault rifle ban would do anything, I also think that banning guns all together is never going happen. Mental illness will continue to be a non-issue and some families will continue to ignore their loved ones problems until it blows up in their face.

I don't know if, as a society, we'll ever see an end to this level of violence. I believe it's now part of the "norm". I would like to see people draw a line, though, where very young children are involved. I believe we should spare no expense at protecting them.

Of the top of my head, I'm thinking that a system, much like a fire alarm, that can trip an alarm and lock every classroom door from the inside, allowing exit but no entry until help arrives, be installed in every school.

The best way to improve one's mental health is to stop taking pills and seeing therapists.

Now we are way OT within OT, and I sure as hell am going to offend someone, but I would agree with you that certain types of psych meds are way overprescribed in this country.

edit to clarify I am talking about antidepressants and benzodiazepines, not meds that schizophrenics need to stay sane

Unfortunately, something similar happened a few years back in the county just west of where I live. The place was Nickel Mines, PA (Lancaster County) and someone unleashed the same ugly, senseless, lethal violence in a one room schoolhouse.

The feeling I had that day I am experiencing again now...utter sadness. I also find that I am asking myself a question and looking for an answer I am unlikely to find. Why on earth would anyone do this?

Peace,

Eric

As an elementary school teacher, this one had an additional context aside from the fact that I'm a human with the capability to empathize.

Determining a """"solution"""" is entirely dependent on what each person believes as the impetus. Even with regard to mental illness, there is still an element of ambiguity as to an answer to the fact that these events are increasing. Focusing alone on that aspect of it, that's why I disregard the gun conversation as any type of solution. I'm not even going to spout off the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" as some type of one-line argument to combat people who want to eliminate assault weapons. I believe that that conversation should be discussed in a civil manner, but entirely disagree and am usually frustrated when an event like this triggers that conversation.

As a Christian, my entire outlook at it differs at the impetus of the tragedy. Take God out, more evil will be let in. We have gradually taken God out of the country, out of the schools, and out of the government. Now, children play Call of Duty games at a 10000x higher rate than they do learning about their Father in Heaven, and are playing these games during their most vulnerable and impressionable years. Even if you are not a Christian, I think we can all agree with the fact about the desensitization of the culture, and especially the youth - and now 20-30 year olds, since these games allow them to vicariously take lives in a fantasy state and in a vicious, realistic, and to them, a titillating manner. Many times, these games are answers to stress, frustration, and depression. 5 year old kids have started to play these games regularly, and will continue for the next 10 years.

I am sickened, saddened, but also determined. Though a music teacher, I've had my school focus on security, and now reiterated it to the wonderful principal at my school to fight for better security, and to determine and assess the prospect of having trained law enforcement officers on school campuses all day, on rotating shifts. I'm not a big-government guy with regard to anything other than law enforcement. I don't care if they tax me an additional 5% if it means it pays cops more to monitor schools daily, and though I have respect for them, not school police. Will that solve the violence? No. Could it simply drive the violence to other locations? Yes. But, I think we can agree, that the fact that 20 KINDERGARTEN STUDENTS were murdered breaks us down in more a manner than adults. Sad all the same, pathetic and dastardly all the same, but these were the most helpless children that were at this school.


God, have mercy on us, have mercy on our country, comfort all of the parents who lost their loved and cherished babies this morning. Please help me and others to involve you more before these events, and not to just call on you after.

n/t

There is not a system like this that I am aware of, but there are protocols in place. In schools in Palm Beach county there is whats is known as code red. All doors are locked, blinds are drawn and there has to be absolute silence, meaning no instruction during this period. It is tested monthly. In my experience it has only been used twice. Once when a student called the police saying that two armed men were coming to the school in a car, he was lying to avoid a test, special operations units were dispatched to the campus as well as a helicopter. The second time was when an armed robbery of a 711 had happened in the neighborhood. The protocol was utilized for half an hour, and everything was fine.

I attended two types of high schools one very large and one very small. At the large one with a enrollment of 2500 three armed police officers were on campus at all times. At the very small one with an enrollment of 250 one armed police officer was always on campus.

i know this is a late reply but but am just getting home from work now and i had tears in my eyes the whole ride home from work listening to this on the radio. i am sick to my stomach and can only imagine when my daughter starts school in a year. i do not not need to go into detail but plz give your children an extra hug and kiss tonite...

Nothing I've read or heard mentioned an assualt weapon being used. Two hand guns were recovered at the scene - a Glock and Sig Sauer, both 9mm. There was a .223 rifle found in the back seat of a car in the parking lot, but it's believed it wasn't used in the shooting. This proves exactly what I said in the Aurora thread - when one wants to kill a mass amount of people, they don't need an assault rifle to do it.

I, too, own a 9mm hand gun. The gun came with 2 clips, I purchased 2 additional clips. Each clip holds 10 rounds. I can discharge all 4 clips (40 rounds) in about a minute. It takes literally 2 seconds to drop the empty clip and replace it with a full clip.

We don't need to focus on the method, but on the motive. What drives some loon to do something like that?

It's a very sad day. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

Nate, a very thoughful post, I wonder though about the video games, if you watch classic Westerns from those idyllic times you long for there is some pretty indiscriminate violence there too, and kids have been pointing toy guns and saying bang you're dead since who knows when. I don't know the answer, just a thought.

And even if it isn't a complete solution, I don't see what we gain as a society by making assault weapons available to the citizenry. Sure you don't need an assault weapon to kill, but it makes it a lot more efficient.

If there was a "fix" it would have been done by now problem is there is no easy "fix". Next to home, school should be the one place where parents can send their children and be safe from harm!

I don`t know how the security is at this school but I wish it was mandatory in this country that all public schools had doors that lock automatically and have at least a security camera at main entrance to view visitors before allowing them in. Sort of like having mandatory fire sprinklers to save lives.
Not saying that would have made a difference here since we really don`t know how things happened.

This tragedy brings back unpleasant memories for me. At my daughters school about 20 years ago a man entered school and killed the school nurse with a shotgun blast. She was at the front desk filling in for my friends mother who called in sick that day. He took a classroom hostage, fortunatly the principle actually wrestled the gun away from this madman and there were no children hurt. After this happened locking doors and security cameras were installed at all schools in town to hopefully prevent this from happening here again.

Cy, those are really bad analogies. I honestly tried to respond, but they simply don't relate in any way to what I said. Sorry.

At the two schools I described earlier this system is in place.

You and I seem to be in agreement - fixing symptoms doesn't take care of the entire problem. The more you take care of 'up front' (fixing the actual problem), the less you have to do on the back-end (fixing 'symptoms' through things like metal detectors, more security, tighter gun control). The solution should be a mixture of both, but it ends up being primarily back-end.

You could go totally right and install fortresses around all schools, with armed guards, metal detectors, bubbles around each child's desk. Or you could go totally left and make every human being see a psychiatrist every week for their entire life, with all sorts of laws prescribing treatment for a plethora of different symptoms of mental illness. We need something in-between that doesn't violate Constitutional rights, but protects our society.

Very true Peter, and, I always enjoy the civil manner in which you present your arguments - even if I do not necessarily agree. I really do not want to get into it deeply, but with regard to eliminating the availability of assault weapons to everyday citizens, though I completely understand your point, I don't focus on it as much for these situations. I also take the stance that those who intend to do evil will not be deterred by laws. I can already hear the sensible argument that, "eliminating the availability of said weapons will at the very least make it more difficult for the perpetrator to acquire the weapon, possibly giving law enforcement more time to uncover the plot." I think in this particular case, the assault weapon had nothing to do with what this coward did. Let's say he didn't own one. He would just bring 3 hand guns with more clips into the classroom of utterly defenseless children. The issue was how easily he got onto the campus, into the office, and then into the classroom. My guess is that he went to the office to inflict damage, but to also get the principal's keys. At that point, no lockdown measures matter unless the students leave the premises.

What I fear for the most is not of these evil American citizens, it is for when insurgents begin to take the place of them, and with more frequency - not using guns, but bombs.

*sigh*

I am an elementary teacher and today was especially difficult. I agree with some posters and just laugh at others. Here are my thoughts and my thoughts alone. I spent the better part of today dealing with this and my feelings might change but here it goes...

Mental Illness is just that. An illness. Nothing more, nothing less. It needs to be destygmatized. The reason is that people often ignore or excuse it and see it is some kind of horrendous problem (it can be, but often it can be managed and treated humanely). Often mental illness is treatable and manageable. In the 20 years I have been working with children, I have seen my share of children and parents with different types of mental illness from SED (seriously emotionally disturbed) to Bipolarism and depression. Parents often ignore warning signs, deny anything is wrong, take it personally, etc. Society has put a lot of pressure on these people to be "normal." This attitude seems to be causing problems. I would not be surprised at all if this person's mental status was questioned as early as elementary school. It does not excuse what happened but it might give a little perspective.

Gun control might be nice but it will probably never happen. Too hard to change the constitution. On the other hand...nothing is said about ammunition. Tax ammo like you take cigarettes...do not make it illegal...make it really really pricey. Might not solve the problem but can certainly help. If you cannot afford munition, it might keep you from buying and using it. Probably not but it couldn't hurt...

To the posters that said this did not happen before...not true...we (humans) have been very proficient at killing others for as long as we first picked up a stone and used it as a tool...When you look at the amount of killings as a ratio of our population, I bet it is less now than in the 1770s. To those of you that say the mass murder aspect is different, I say nope. There have been mass murderers forever. The difference now is the speed at which it can be accomplished and the way it is globally sent around the world. It used to take much longer to kill people before guns but it happened (more often than people realize).

Media has not helped. The media saturation is unreal. It was much easier 30 years ago to insulate your children from these horrific events. Turn off the tv and radio, hide the newspaper. Now, kids see stuff on the internet, phones, tv, radio, e-readers, etc. Much more difficult to avoid the saturation. I had a kid in my 4th grade class pick his phone up after school and immediately started yelling to his friends about the school shooting. Parents need to be aware of what they are handing their kids and how they discuss what is seen on that media. (Of course, the media has been around a long time...I bet people in London were saying the same thing about Jack the Ripper...probably the first mass murderer to have photographic portrayals in the newspaper).

The theory that this is happening because as a nation we have moved away from God and let kids play Call of Duty is sort of ridiculous. The amount of carnage caused in the name of God by countries that were "godly" is unreal. We forget our history so quickly...Crusades, Inquisition, Wars of Religion, etc. Belief in God does not suddenly make the unstable stable and the evil go away.

Call of Duty and other violent video games do not suddenly cause children to be violent. What science has shown is that it makes people predisposed to violence possibly more violent AND in some of those, allows an outlet for that violence. If everyone followed what they saw/did in games, half the country would have taken up farming. I dislike video games for a whole different reason...but that is another discussion on parenting and problem solving.

Again, my thoughts alone...and I am still emotional but there it is...

Joshua

Matthew I like your idea, it`s sort of along the same line as i am suggesting in an earlier post as well. Maybe this tragedy can make childrens safety (teachers too!) at school a top priority for this country, much like the war on terrorism is. I think this is an idea whoose time has come!

An assault weapon was not used!!!! One was found in his car. He used 2 handguns to commit the evil that he did. Do not demonize assault rifles just because they look "scary". I use mine to go deer, elk, boar hunting. It is one of the best guns that I have ever owned. In fact, I am buying another one tomorrow.

When the government comes knocking on your door you are gonna wish that you owned an AR.

If the government goes as drastic as you say . . . . hang on because the blood will run in the streets.

What does that mean?

Joshua, Nate, Peter, etc. - these are great posts.

Have a great weekend everyone.

I agree 100%

What if they just send a drone to knock your house out with a missile?

It's the same libertarian philosophy that you're espousing in your other posts.

It's true that I'm a Libertarian, but I still didn't understand your analogies, and I don't think they reflect a Libertarian philosophy, and certainly not mine.

You gave very extreme examples, none of which reflected my thoughts. If you re-read any of my posts in this thread, you should know exactly how I feel about this subject, but if you don't, just state what you have a problem with, and I'll respond. I don't think I've hidden from anything in this thread.

edited to add: Also, I agree with you about the media attention.

So for the people saying assault rifles should be banned, say the guy drove his car through a group of kids and killed 15. Should we ban cars?

Also for anyone who thinks video games are part of the problem. I like many others have played violent video games, yet I haven't become a serial killer and killed people and I don't plan on it. So because acouple PEOPLE out of MILLIONS decide to kill others, doesn't mean guns or video games are the problem. If the guy didn't have a gun, he would have found other means to kill people.

So what's the difference between us and Western Europe where this doesn't seem to happen? If it's not the accessibility or pervasiveness of guns, then what is it?

Also he used two handguns, not a assault rifle which was left in the car.

And the fact that by some fortuity he did that, and it wasn't even worse than it was, means assault rifles are a good thing?

Again the guy would have found other ways to kill people without guns.

Brock--obviously, the violence of video games doesn't affect everyone who plays. However, even if it affects a small minority of the people, it is contributing to the increase in violence in our society. Is it the sole cause, no.
The news is reporting that the killer had some sort of mental disorder. Why were guns allowed in a house where someone like that would have access to the guys?
Apparently, the mother of the killer purchased these guns legally. Did anyone question why a teacher would need two hand guns and an assault rifle?

"If the guy didn't have a gun, he would have found other means to kill people."

Other than McVeigh, how many of these mass murderers have used any means other than guns? Just curious.

"Again the guy would have found other ways to kill people without guns."

I don't believe this reasoning!

I think Cy made a good point regarding the media attention.

This is horrific but it has happened in Western Europe, many times.

I thought when we went through this last time we found data showing the murder rates were much much lower in Western Europe and places like Canada and Australia, and weren't some of the Western European episodes terrorism, but if I am wrong I stand corrected.

Taking a SHIT on the Bill of Rights is not going to fix the problem. There have been mass murders in this world since the beginning of time. It didn't start when the US gave the people the right to bear arms.

I do not think guns in general should be banned. With that said, what is the purpose of having assault guns? These types of guns are so distrunctive that in anyone's hands, they are too much power. When our constitution was written, assault guns did not exist. Second amendment was good for the time but should not apply to assault weapons. No civilian uses these to hunt game or protect their home! They are used strictly for killing. Even if they were used for hunting, there would be the ethical debate of what is sport and what is overkill. They need to be banned as they serve no useful purpose.

What about the Bath School Bombing where 45 people were killed(38 kids).

These rifles they are using really aren't assault rifles, they should only be able to shot single rounds(not fully auto).

Video games are simply another outlet among many - you could ban or severely restrict them and there would be no shortage of comic books, movies, or internet sites that would fill the void quickly. The problem is that in a number of families, the kids are spending a great deal more time with the television and video games than they are with their parents. Nothing can substitute for having parents who are involved in a child's life.

Peter made a good point previously about old western shows actually being quite violent, and toy guns being prevalent. The violence is certainly more graphic these days, but I would argue that the lower level of parental involvement is a much larger factor.

Times are different than when the Bill of Rights was written. Maybe it needs to be updated. There is no reason for private citizens to own assault rifles or semi-automatic weapons (which by the way didn't exist when the Bill of Rights was written).

Why shouldn't a private citizen be able to own a assault rifle. I would like to own one and someday I will buy one. But it doesn't mean I plan on killing others with it.