Fair enough, I guess that makes sense. It doesn't effect me anyway since I've never sent a card in to be graded. Have considered it, but after filling those forms out a couple times I've stopped myself and thought, "eh I don't really care that much". Maybe I'd think differently if I was selling, but I'm just collecting.

Am I the only person here who is understanding what Travrosty is getting at?

He is not trying to promote the company or saying they are worth anyones time. He's simply stating that competition is good and that its a shame that no one wants to try new companies but insist on bashing the current ones.

We want change yet as collectors we stick with what we have been doing right or wrong. Because after all we buy the holders not the cards right?

thats right i am not trying to promote the company, just trying to understand that when the phrase "buy the card not the holder" is bantered around i guess when push comes to shove, it's "buy the holder not the card". thats what i can glean from all of this.

If I see two cards that appear to be high grade and one is in an ISA (or CSA or GAI, etc., etc.) holder and the other is in a PSA holder then damn straight I'm putting my faith in the PSA holder!

ive been saying that for the longest time here about buying the holder not the card. is still what predominately happens no matter what people say........nice to see some finally agree with me....

was a thread about me asking to see someone actually on net54 buy a card with a lower grade than a higher grade card in the same auction....we shall see....

if a new company offers insurance or an issue to protect a buyer if a card is bought with the holder and there proves to be a significant defect not worth of the grade and the buyer can be compensated the difference in sale value that would be a good start and no reason to pick psa over them if you truly a buy the card not the holder person...

Buy the card not the holder is one thing. To me that's just people saying don't overpay for an off center or poor registration card because it has a certain grade. Or don't be afraid to pay more than a certain grade goes for if the card looks great.

It certainly doesn't mean to pay a lot of money for a high end card graded by a company that no one uses. Everyone knows people use these kind of companies to grade cards that don't make it through PSA or SGC. This means someone would have to know nothing about the current market to send a legitimate card into ISA. The only way I would buy one of these high end cards ISA graded is if the seller will accept a return if it won't cross, knowing I'll only be out my time and grading fees.

This has nothing to do with buying the card and not the holder. I just don't want to end up with an expensive fake or altered card.

so you are saying ISA only encapsulates fake or altered cards and the other big companies have done so? Got it.

uhhh....no...try again.

Buy the card not the holder IS true. However, let's use some common sense here. There is a reason why PRO/GEM/GAI cards don't sell for as much as their PSA/SGC/BVG counterparts.

I equate to finding a Rembrandt. Are you going to pay more for it at Sotheby's or your local mom and pop auction house in a one traffic light town. At least at Sotheby's you can rest easy knowing you are buying the real deal. At the smaller auction house. you have a almost 100% chance that the item is a fake, or if it is not a fake, there is a real good chance the item has issues. I know it is a far-fetched analogy, but it is similar enough that you should get the gist.

Couple of random thoughts :

The primary at ISA appears to be a guy named Jason Koonce - Is it my imagination or do I recall Jason being with PSA at one time?

Some of the higher volume consignors appear to be OK with ISA - Probstein (no flames please), Mile High, Rich Gove

It appears top be extremely hard for anyone other than the big 3 to gain a foothold in TPG market as so many have come and gone over the past 20 years. Pretty sure that many of us on the boards have tossed around the idea of creating the next big TPG that would address all of the weaknesses of the existing companies. A cursory look at startup costs on such a venture is quite substantial - add in immediate suspicion of anyone other than the big 3 and you got tuff, tuff, tuff

When I matched up that Banks with a PSA 8.5 on ebay the two cards appeared to be the same size. I'm no image expert, just cropped and resized the images using a very old Powerpoint (MS Office 2k) until the name "Ernie Banks" on both cards appeared equal, and compared the height and width of each card and they appeared to be equal (considering the tools I was using).

If you crack it out and send it to one of the big three grader, please let us know the results.

Any new grading company has a tough road ahead, how do they prove their grading unless they get the full range of cards to grade? It's fine to grade a load of commons, but that says nothing about consistency. I often feel that cards of star players or the more "iconic" cards get better grades than similar commons. So having some really nice cards graded would be important. If I was starting one, I'd offer to do some high profile cards for free.

Sure, what holder a card is in makes a difference depending on the reputation of the company. They've all made mistakes. Some legit companies have made far more mistakes than others and that's why they aren't as trusted. Just avoid the really sketchy ones. The ones like the guy "grading" magazine cutouts and pop riveting them into screwdowns aren't legit at all.

But to say "oh if it's PSA I know I can trust the card isn't altered" is only a bit more true than saying that of any of the second tier companies.

Learn enough to trust the one hobby person you should put the most faith in - YOU. The holder doesn't matter, the lack of a holder doesn't matter.

Will you make mistakes? YES. I've been collecting since .....well, not as long as some, but plenty long enough. And I still make mistakes. (Massively overpaid for a stamp this week, but by massively overpaid I mean I paid $5 for a $1 item. ) I've also done fairly well buying ungraded cards even on ebay. It's kinda fun to buy an ungraded common t206 and have it grade as EX :)
I make a lot fewer mistakes now than I did 20-30 years ago. And fewer still than I made back in the 70's.

Steve B

again if a new company offers insurance or issues that deal with trimmed or fraud on the holders etc....that should eliminate a lot of concerns..

When checkers and Sonic were about to open restaurants, did they worry about Burger King or Mcdonalds...there is always room for more.

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that no one who knows anything about our hobby would send an expensive card to a company like ISA for authentication when they know it's only going to detract from the value of the card. There's a reason it's in an ISA holder. And unless that reason is someone at ISA graded these cards and then sent them into the market to build their reputation, I'm assuming that someone tried to get it into a PSA or SGC holder and failed.

I hardly think I'm in the minority in my opinion.

They only seem to grade 9s and 10s too. Odd, that.

Uh, they could advertise. A booth at the National perhaps. A social media presence maybe. A popular sports card message board could work.
None of these are cost prohibitive. The lack of doing so is bad business. The lack of business sense from TPGers is astounding.

The PSA 8.5 is listed at $2500...wow

If that thing sells (6 Watchers) I may have to crack it and send it in to PSA just to see if I can hit the jackpot