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As far as reform goes, it has to start from within the person who is doing the deeds....if that doesn't happen, they won't stop. Sincerely, Clayton |
Hi Leon- while I always respect your views and try to support them, I don't understand why this card is any different than any other T206. Of course it depicts Honus Wagner and is very expensive, but it has to be graded with the same standards used for all T206's. And if any other one is trimmed down to look NR MT (we have to assume every card that has the edges shaved is going to have at minimum fabulous eye appeal) it can be assigned one grade and one only: AUTH. It's an altered card, period. It was done to deceive a buyer by making it appear a higher grade than it actually is.
So what is different about this card? If no other trimmed T206 merits the hand cut designation, why does this one? I don't see the distinction. |
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If it's trimmed, the grade is irrelevant -- it's Authentic because it's altered. If it's a strip card etc. that was MEANT to be hand cut, then it isn't really altered so the grade becomes at least marginally relevant.
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Sincerely, Clayton |
Well if you are insistent that this card is different then I am going to suggest how it can be distinguished from other cards: how about if the label reads "AUTH hand cut?" That gives it a little more cache and separates it from the garden variety AUTH that is nothing more than a card altered by a card doctor. The "AUTH hand cut" designation would be used to show that it was originally cut off of a sheet. I can live with that.
But the term "PSA 8" has to be removed from the equation. There is nothing PSA 8 about this card. It only looks NR MT/MT because it was trimmed to look that way. It only deserves that designation if it has remained nearly pristine since it was issued, similar to the amazing Black Swamp cards. That's my point, and I'm sticking to it. I guess we'll have to disagree on the PSA 8 part of it. |
Qualifiers - ugh
My understanding of valuing cards with PSA qualifiers is roughly a 2 pt reduction in the numerical grade (ie PSA 6 OC ~ PSA 4 in value).
Therefore should not the Wagner be reslabbed as a PSA 10 HC :eek: :eek: :eek: I don't expect any support for this idea, as I don't support it either. I just don't like the whole qualifier issue with PSA. |
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Absolutely agree that no other Wagner looks like an 8. And this card does look like one. But trimmed cards are not supposed to get 8's. Maybe we've taken this one as far as we can go. Let's politely and respectfully accept we disagree. I happen to love the card and think it's a knockout. I'm just not crazy about that silly little label on it.
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I see Leon's point about trying to preserve the 'greatness of the card' but think this can be achieved consistent with the principles of grading with an "Authentic" grade so long as accompanied by an appropriate characterization. And, I don't think "Gretzky/McNall" does the job.
I was obviously joking in my prior post about "Mastro Wagner" although Bill does appear to be the person most responsible for bringing the card into the hobby and onto its way to become the icon it is today. I think with all the creativity among our members, someone could come up with a fitting characterization. "Hobby Icon"? |
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There will no doubt be opinions on both sides of the fence when it comes to the topic at hand, but the fact remains that Psa does and always has awarded numerical grades to hand cut cards. Where does one draw the line?? I see both arguments and don't lean either way. Cards below are not mine, simply shown for reference.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95...sahandcut1.jpg http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95...sahandcut2.jpg http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95...sahandcut3.jpg http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95...sahandcut4.jpg |
After reading all the opinions I am still at the same point I was when I began. In order to answer the question of what grade the card should have we have to simply think like a grader. That means we can't take the card's mystique into question or the fact that it is the "Holy Grail" of the hobby. We have to just look at the card like any other card we look at.
If it is a trimmed card, then we have to give it an Auth grade. Simple. As collectors we can debate it all we want and that's the great thing about this board. We can debate it. But when the card gets into the hands of a professional objective grader, it's just another card and should accurately be graded as it is. Authentic. End of story. I do think it should have pedigree on the flip however to acknowledge it's importance to the hobby. Thanks, AndyH |
Tony, the difference there, is that those cards were "only" available as part of strips or sheets...The 1984 Nestle Mattingly is nice. I have one myself. But perfect centering is almost a given with those, because they were only released in sheet form, and for the most part, were professionally cut after the fact.
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Hi David. Yes I did know that, but was referencing them only to show hand cut cards do receive numerical grades from Psa whether they be strip cards or from a sheet just as Leon stated from the beginning. Again not quite sure which way I lean right now, but the Wagner card was from a sheet, right? Like I stated where does one draw the line. Both camps have good points and this is no doubt a unique situation.
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I am not sure we ALWAYS need to take such a hard view of everything in our hobby. I would vote for it being a kinder and gentler place while being grounded in reality and transparency. At the end of the day, and final negative disposition given, the card should be relabeled. It will be interesting to see if it is, and if it is, what it says on the flip. |
When I look at the Wagner, as well as those strip cards Tony posted, it's hard for me to think those are actually hand cut. Machine cut? I couldn't hand cut a card that good on my best day :D :p
Sincerely, Clayton |
Isn't it a moot point until Ken Kendrick decides he wants to sell it or strikes a deal with PSA to adjust the flip?
In the long run, it's probably better to do the latter so the controversy doesn't hog the headlines/message boards when it is for sale again. "Authentic" or not, the value of the card isn't going to plummet. Collectors like "nice" and this is still the "nicest" of all. Most people who have $ to spend on a very expensive old baseball card don't think like you, the "serious" collector. Wealthy people like "newsworthy" and the Wagner card is definitely that. You can wish it away, but it ain't happenin'. I'm pretty sure there will be a waiting list. |
Yes, 'hand cut' is just a figure of speech in some cases.
Rule #1 for hand cutting: First make sure they aren't pinking sheers. Rule #2: If they were pinking sheers, sell the card as a T206 Deckle Edge regional test issue. Rule #3: Practice on a 1991 Donruss first. |
While standards and rules have changed at PSA since the Wagner was first graded, I doubt even then, the intent or purpose of assigning a grade would have applied to cards which where hand cut from issues which were not intended to be hand cut. T206s are not strip cards or cards which were cut off of a box. At this point, were PSA to do anything short of placing the card in an Authentic holder they would once again being complicit in rewriting grading standards and rules for this card. The original assigned grade was done with deceit and it would only continue to compromise the concept of grading to apply a new set of standards because of this card. This card should not continue to receive special treatment. Already are enough people, and therefore cards, in the hobby who get special treatment. This should be the end of the road for this one. Time to wear the scarlet letter!
Mastro was not the only one involved in assigning a grade on this card. His admission implicates others, I would think. Further, we did not need an admission from him about the alteration to know it was altered. Each time PSA saw the card, when they had it on display at shows or the several times it was reholdered, they decided to look the other way and permit the lie to live on. I suppose they could argue the card was never sent to them for review but it should be their responsibility to maintain the integrity of their services especially in light of a glaring error. |
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The implications of this line of reasoning IMO is that it will set a new standard of how final-production-run uncut sheets from ALL issues are to be graded. Given the technology available to precisely cut sheets combined with uncut sheets known to exist, we could in theory create, for example, "PSA 10 Hand-Laser-Machine-Etc. Cut" examples of N172 Kelly, Ward, Brouthers and Comisky, E93 Cobb, Wagner, and Mathewson, M101-5 Ruth and Thorpe, '33 Goudey Ruth, '34 Goudey Gehrig, Sport Kings Ruth and Cobb. The likelihood of that happening will depend how the market would value such creations. Currently uncut sheets are valued at a fraction of their break value based the individual cards receiving numerical grades. If however a new grading standard emerged and materially changed the value of such sheet-cut cards, either the prices of the sheets would increase markedly or there would be significant economic incentive to cut them up. |
This card has been the elephant in the room that nobody wanted to seriously talk about for 20 years...everyone knew exactly what this card was the whole time. (Trimmed when viewed in person). The question for any collector should be "why has it taken this long to ...." Add your own terms to the end of that statement, and think about why an ostrich sticks its head into a hole in the ground...The hobby will mature if this card is reholdered (not gonna happen)...
GB |
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Shouldn't a distinction be made for cards that were marketed in strips, intended to be cut into cards, like strip cards? I can see these numerically graded as #/Hand Cut because they were used as intended. I don't think I have ever seen evidence that T206s were ever marketed as strips with the intention that the user cut them into separate cards.
This is a card with two faces. One, the best surviving example condition-wise of the most famous card in the hobby. IOW, it is and always will be the most famous copy of the most famous card in the hobby. The second face as Corey referenced above is that it will also always seemingly be linked with the fraudulent underbelly of the hobby. To me to make this card continue to be an "8" going forward regardless of qualifier says that we are determined to find a way to "number" this card based on the card it is, not any standardized system of grading. |
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GB |
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if i had a superb oversized wagner, with great appeal, just slightly rounded corners, i just trim it sharp, send it to psa, and ask for a hand cut qualifer. my card goes from a 5 to an 8 hand cut? i agree with corey, is this where we want to go? i say no. the trimmers would have a field day thinking of ways to increase their card several grades and get a hand cut qualifier. and its not just wagner, other oversized cards too. |
How many cards
Have a book specifically written about them. C'mon now -- this cards will sell for more $$$ if and when the next time it sells due to the fame. And no, this card's flip will not change. All you will need to go with it is a signed copy of "The Card".
Rich |
even if the hand cut qualifier got a little traction and psa decided it wanted to do it, it would never fly, because it would look like an obvious attempt by psa to minimize the fallout over misgrading it the first time. people would be outraged that all psa would have to do is add "hand cut" to the flip it is already in and that everything would now be okay?
PSA used that cards for 20 years in advertising, etc. to promote its business, and it was an "A" all along, not an 8. Great advertising for them. The first card they graded, and a big draw, at the national, etc. Now they get to decide it should remain an 8 (HC) to save face? I don't think they should ever grade a T206 Wagner again. The card was trimmed. PSA graded a trimmed card. |
Travis, I have news for you. PSA has graded a LOT of trimmed cards. So has SGC. Maybe not in terms of percentages, but given the volume both companies have graded, many trimmed cards have, for whatever reason, slipped through. And it will continue to happen, it's inevitable. It's an imperfect world.
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Yeah but this Wagner was the centerpiece of PSA's advertising for decades. It is the most significant card they've ever graded. And not only was it misgraded but it was graded fraudulently. And of course, as predicted, Joe Orlando sticks his head in the sand and pretends this debacle doesn't exist. What a clown he is.
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Jeff, the story just broke a couple of days ago, we don't know yet whether Joe is going to play ostrich or take a position. I imagine he needs to discuss this with his management and maybe the CU Board before doing anything. I suspect this will take some time. It's a public company still, no? EDIT TO ADD And yeah he probably needs to consult with their lawyers too.
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Hand cut would never work
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JimB |
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Peter,
Yes, if I was a betting man, I would infer the same thing. But I would like to see what is actually said before drawing conclusions. JimB |
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i believe it should receive a auth grade because it has been altered. What i would have liked to see is the printer sheet the wagner came from man that would have been one of the greatest find in sports card history and might have been held in higher regard than the card bye itself i say this because of the condition of the wagner by itself is amazing. does anyone else know who was on this sheet with the wagner?
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do we see the duality here?
on one hand, a lot of people are saying that everyone knew it was trimmed all these years, so what is the big deal about. on the other hand, when people here call it trimmed, then others want to hold off calling it trimmed for sure until the principal of the criminal case confirms it at trial, and on audio tape? see how important it is to find out once and for all, so this jeckyll and hyde situation can be resolved. its obviously trimmed to some for certain debate purposes, and it cant be called trimmed to others for other debate purposes. |
If the card has been trimmed, cut down or/and otherwise altered, it's grade is either Authentic or Poor-- though Authentic would be the usual choice.
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It was further part of the scheme that in marketing materials distributed on behalf of Mastro Auctions, which were intended to portray Mastro Auctions to potential bidders and consignors as a premier seller of valuable items for which a strong market existed, defendant MASTRO represented that Mastro Auctions had sold the most expensive baseball card in the world, a Honus Wagner T-206 card. In making this representation, however, defendant MASTRO knowingly omitted the material fact that defendant MASTRO had altered the baseball card by cutting the sides of the card in a manner that, if disclosed, would have significantly reduced the value of the card. Based on this statement, it wasn't the actual sale of the card that was an issue, but continually advertising that they had sold the most expensive card in the hobby without disclosing that they knew the card was altered, which would greatly devalue the card. Likewise, PSA has milked the same card for all its worth. According to Michael O'Keeffe's articles and his book, The Card, there was allegedly a voice of descent by one of the graders, Bill Hughes, regarding if the card had been trimmed. Here's an excerpt from a recent NY Daily News article: "The Card" quotes Bill Hughes, a member of the grading service team that issued the card's high grade - Professional Sports Authenticator gave it a PSA 8 on a scale of 1-10 - as admitting he knew the card had been cut from a sheet when he graded it. "The card is so outstanding, it would have been sacrilegious to call that card trimmed and completely devalue it," Hughes explained. See: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010...umerical-grade To also put this in perspective, the T206 Wagner PSA 8 was the first card PSA graded. Having this highly sought after card with a PSA label was in my opinion the greatest publicity a start-up company in this industry could hope for. So by analogy, if Hughes' admissions are true, PSA may have in essence done the same that Mastro did - attempt to mislead consumers with false information. Another potential problem facing PSA is if there was indeed a deliberate decision to grade a trimmed card, the current owner of the card may decide to explore the option of filing a suit against the grading company under the Lanham Act for false advertising/mislabeling of a product and would be liable for triple damages. That's $2.8M x 3 = $8.4M!!! As for Joe Orlando, unless he's gone through a radical personal transformation, I wouldn't expect to see any voluntary public statement about the Wagner or Mastro. |
Dan -- Lanham Act claims are usually against a competitor. It is possible a buyer has a cause of action against a seller, I am not sure, but in any event PSA didn't sell the card. I am not sure there is a Lanham Act claim here.
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Couldn't one reproduce a factory cut by using equipment from that time to pass the grade? Wonder if this will spread to other suspected cards like the SGC P150 Plank.....very interesting development indeed.
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i'm sure some others on here know a whole lot more about the process than me...but when large stacks of sheets are cut with that style of guillotine like cutter the effect on the cards(kind of a bowing effect) cut will appear very different than if u only cut one single sheet. Additionally wouldn't the color of the cut edges be a give away too?
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I believe the only proper outcome is to reholder the thing in an AUTH-TRIMMED holder. I think if they were to basically make an exception and call it PSA 8 (Hand Cut), it would no doubt lead to other exceptions. When the borders are eventually added to the Wagner in the other thread, we can call it PSA 8 (Hand Made).
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I think Authentic...cut from sheet would be appropriate.
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